Author Topic: Performance Pack Diff Questions  (Read 7085 times)

Offline GrahamFR

  • I live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,456
Re: Performance Pack Diff Questions
« Reply #10 on: 26 August 2014, 07:44 »
Hi
1. Not sure sorry
2. The diff is always on and sport mode just does the dampers and changes the gear box to sport if dsg box.
I think they are pretty robust as I have driven my one hard and love it..just enjoy.
Mike


Gotta be honest i'm not sure what difference it makes but the diff has it's own "sport" setting in individual mode separate to the  dampers and engine.

As fair as i am aware the diff in sport mode allows a little more 'play' in the corners, if you want the diff to work most 'effectively' then leave it in normal
2007: Leon PD170
2010: Leon CR170
2013: Golf GTI PP
2016: A45 AMG

Offline corgi

  • I live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 761
Re: Performance Pack Diff Questions
« Reply #11 on: 26 August 2014, 08:57 »
As fair as i am aware the diff in sport mode allows a little more 'play' in the corners, if you want the diff to work most 'effectively' then leave it in normal

I'm not saying you're wrong... but on a front wheel drive car that seems odd...

If it is a plate type diff, then it will, over time, wear the plates and become less effective.
_____________________________________________
Corgi

Carbon Grey Metallic, GTD 3 Door Manual, Dynaudio and Advanced Phone Prep
In the Garage: 2010 Jaguar XKR 5.0 Supercharged Convertible replaced 2004 911 (996) Carrera 4S Cabriolet (15/3/15)

Jackie Treehorn

  • Guest
Re: Performance Pack Diff Questions
« Reply #12 on: 26 August 2014, 19:40 »
As fair as i am aware the diff in sport mode allows a little more 'play' in the corners, if you want the diff to work most 'effectively' then leave it in normal


As far as i understand (but happy to be proved wrong). 

In Sport: It will be open (off) on deceleration for added stability, and locking (on) on throttle to distribute the power 0-100% to either wheel. It also acts to vary yaw movement through sharp left right turns if oversteer is detected to reduce the need for input from the ESC system.
In normal mode: Its off and basically reverts to the GTI without the Diff, and just uses the XDS + system.

I am trying to find the source for this info but i have read sooo much in the couple of months so far waiting that i can't find it again.

*edit: Some info

Front differential lock info http://www.vwvortex.com/news/volkswagen-news/volkswagen-golf-7-gti-press-materials/

« Last Edit: 26 August 2014, 21:03 by Jackie Treehorn »

Offline corgi

  • I live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 761
Re: Performance Pack Diff Questions
« Reply #13 on: 27 August 2014, 07:52 »
As fair as i am aware the diff in sport mode allows a little more 'play' in the corners, if you want the diff to work most 'effectively' then leave it in normal
In Sport: It will be open (off) on deceleration for added stability, and locking (on) on throttle to distribute the power 0-100% to either wheel.

This makes much more sense - and sounds, to me, more like a Torsen setup than a plate type LSD...
_____________________________________________
Corgi

Carbon Grey Metallic, GTD 3 Door Manual, Dynaudio and Advanced Phone Prep
In the Garage: 2010 Jaguar XKR 5.0 Supercharged Convertible replaced 2004 911 (996) Carrera 4S Cabriolet (15/3/15)

Offline GrahamFR

  • I live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,456
Re: Performance Pack Diff Questions
« Reply #14 on: 27 August 2014, 07:55 »
Is anyone close to their manual doesnt it say in there? I dont often drive in sport as the potholes round here are terrible and I cannot believe that I have never had my LSD on.... I wouldnt be here if it wasnt on??
2007: Leon PD170
2010: Leon CR170
2013: Golf GTI PP
2016: A45 AMG

Jackie Treehorn

  • Guest
Re: Performance Pack Diff Questions
« Reply #15 on: 28 August 2014, 22:11 »
Some more info to help/confuse me  :)

I guess the book may not say much but would like to find out, although i will prob find out my self at the end of Sept

1,600 Nm maximum locking moment. If the control module detects wheel slip at one of the front wheels, the plates are actuated to redistribute the drive torque from the wheel with the lower grip level to the wheel with the higher level. The maximum locking moment is 1,600 Nm, so that if necessary all of the drive torque can be directed to just one front wheel; that corresponds to a locking value of 100 per cent. This produces maximum traction for a front-wheel drive vehicle, even under difficult roadway conditions and in turning situations.

ESC Sport
In the new Golf GTI, Volkswagen is offering the "ESC Sport" function for very experienced drivers. The system is activated by a two-stage switch on the centre console. If the driver pushes the button once briefly, it deactivates the ASR function (traction control). When the button is pressed longer than three seconds, Electronic Stability Control (ESC) switches to the "ESC Sport" mode. In very fast driving with lots of bends - such as on a race course - the ESC system reacts with a delay, which enables even greater agile handling properties. As an alternative to activation by the pushbutton on the centre console, ESC can now also be activated or deactivated by settings in the CAR menu.

[Source: Volkswagen]

Unlike the electronic EDL or XDS traction systems, which use a standard differential in conjunction with individual electronic control of the front brakes, the VAQ is an active mechanical clutch pack-based device located between the differential cage and the right-hand drive shaft. The pressure required to actuate the clutch pack is produced and regulated by an electrically-powered hydraulic pump

The car has a normal differential in the gearbox casing.

So, we have a system of variable "friction" clutches, modulated by hydraulic pressure from an electric pump, that can modify the "locking" action (the Slip) between one of the halfshafts and the crownwheel / diffcage. (exactly as in a conventional LSD)

In a turn, the different wheel paths result in a wheel speed variance, and the lateral G results in a tyre normal load difference. As such, for a conventional differential, which MUST maintain the same torque for both wheels (set by the lowest denominator), if the driver applies a drive torque higher than that set by the inside wheel (the lightly normally loaded one) that wheel will overspeed, resulting in that excess torque simply being used to speed up that wheel/tyre and not to drive the car forward.

With a locked diff, the limit becomes that of the outside wheel/tyre, which will be significantly higher due to the weight transfer onto that outside tyre (latG x CofG height x front mass). This means the car can longitudinally accelerate harder than one without an LSD.

With the locking system, the diff will act to EQUALISE the speed differential across the front axle, and as a result the inside wheel will overspeed. However, this will not result in a high longitudunal acceleration (assuming the tyre is full loaded and is at the "peak" of its slip/force curve). In fact, this will result in less longitudinal drive force on the inside wheel. However, the outside tyre can accept this higher drive torque, and produce a high longitudinal drive force, and as such the inside wheel drive force falls and the outside one rises. This is the "effective" Torque Vectoring that they are talking about.

It does however rely on the driver applying more throttle, and hence more drive torque, themselves (unlike a proper torque vectoring system that can do this with the torque it is currently supplied with). The result of that is probably what Dan is talking about as a "slighty none intuitive" need to apply more throttle that seems normal to get the front diff to really "work" in his Gti/Meganne piece


The biggest benefit of the electronic control of slip is that your input parameter matrix become very wide indeed. For a conventional LSD using ramps or sprung plates etc the input parameter is primarily drive torque (both positive (drive) and negative (overun). With electronic control, you can apply modifications to the wheel speed split (and hence vehicle yaw authority) based on things such as vehicle speed, driving mode (Normal, sport, eco etc) and of course multiple inputs from the dynamic stability control system (for example, keeping an open diff with no handwheel feel corruption most times, but locking it hard when yaw stability (and phase lag) become critical, such as in an emergency lane change etc

[Source: Max Torque]
« Last Edit: 28 August 2014, 22:14 by Jackie Treehorn »

Offline caprigreen

  • Here all the time
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: Performance Pack Diff Questions
« Reply #16 on: 28 August 2014, 22:20 »
Some more info to help/confuse me  :)

I guess the book may not say much but would like to find out, although i will prob find out my self at the end of Sept

1,600 Nm maximum locking moment. If the control module detects wheel slip at one of the front wheels, the plates are actuated to redistribute the drive torque from the wheel with the lower grip level to the wheel with the higher level. The maximum locking moment is 1,600 Nm, so that if necessary all of the drive torque can be directed to just one front wheel; that corresponds to a locking value of 100 per cent. This produces maximum traction for a front-wheel drive vehicle, even under difficult roadway conditions and in turning situations.

ESC Sport
In the new Golf GTI, Volkswagen is offering the "ESC Sport" function for very experienced drivers. The system is activated by a two-stage switch on the centre console. If the driver pushes the button once briefly, it deactivates the ASR function (traction control). When the button is pressed longer than three seconds, Electronic Stability Control (ESC) switches to the "ESC Sport" mode. In very fast driving with lots of bends - such as on a race course - the ESC system reacts with a delay, which enables even greater agile handling properties. As an alternative to activation by the pushbutton on the centre console, ESC can now also be activated or deactivated by settings in the CAR menu.

[Source: Volkswagen]

Unlike the electronic EDL or XDS traction systems, which use a standard differential in conjunction with individual electronic control of the front brakes, the VAQ is an active mechanical clutch pack-based device located between the differential cage and the right-hand drive shaft. The pressure required to actuate the clutch pack is produced and regulated by an electrically-powered hydraulic pump

The car has a normal differential in the gearbox casing.

So, we have a system of variable "friction" clutches, modulated by hydraulic pressure from an electric pump, that can modify the "locking" action (the Slip) between one of the halfshafts and the crownwheel / diffcage. (exactly as in a conventional LSD)

In a turn, the different wheel paths result in a wheel speed variance, and the lateral G results in a tyre normal load difference. As such, for a conventional differential, which MUST maintain the same torque for both wheels (set by the lowest denominator), if the driver applies a drive torque higher than that set by the inside wheel (the lightly normally loaded one) that wheel will overspeed, resulting in that excess torque simply being used to speed up that wheel/tyre and not to drive the car forward.

With a locked diff, the limit becomes that of the outside wheel/tyre, which will be significantly higher due to the weight transfer onto that outside tyre (latG x CofG height x front mass). This means the car can longitudinally accelerate harder than one without an LSD.

With the locking system, the diff will act to EQUALISE the speed differential across the front axle, and as a result the inside wheel will overspeed. However, this will not result in a high longitudunal acceleration (assuming the tyre is full loaded and is at the "peak" of its slip/force curve). In fact, this will result in less longitudinal drive force on the inside wheel. However, the outside tyre can accept this higher drive torque, and produce a high longitudinal drive force, and as such the inside wheel drive force falls and the outside one rises. This is the "effective" Torque Vectoring that they are talking about.

It does however rely on the driver applying more throttle, and hence more drive torque, themselves (unlike a proper torque vectoring system that can do this with the torque it is currently supplied with). The result of that is probably what Dan is talking about as a "slighty none intuitive" need to apply more throttle that seems normal to get the front diff to really "work" in his Gti/Meganne piece


The biggest benefit of the electronic control of slip is that your input parameter matrix become very wide indeed. For a conventional LSD using ramps or sprung plates etc the input parameter is primarily drive torque (both positive (drive) and negative (overun). With electronic control, you can apply modifications to the wheel speed split (and hence vehicle yaw authority) based on things such as vehicle speed, driving mode (Normal, sport, eco etc) and of course multiple inputs from the dynamic stability control system (for example, keeping an open diff with no handwheel feel corruption most times, but locking it hard when yaw stability (and phase lag) become critical, such as in an emergency lane change etc

[Source: Max Torque]

Anyone understand that  :embarrassed:
64 plate VW Golf GTI PP Pure white
1991 VW Golf GTI 8v Silver, 30k miles

Jackie Treehorn

  • Guest
Re: Performance Pack Diff Questions
« Reply #17 on: 29 August 2014, 07:18 »
Lol

tech info aside, the sport button near the gearstick doesn't appear to have any relation on the PP diff. ESC enhanced settings in sport is a separate feature.  That's the way i read it anyway.


also the PP cars get the std diff in the gearbox casing and a torsion applied clutch pack diff on the side, that's hydraulically controlled.

someone must know on here, the cars have been out a while and so many people are driving them. I want to make sure i understand what things do on my cars and how they wear mechanically so i can be sympathetic to them. But i guess most just drive, and look at the next car purchase at the end of the lease.
« Last Edit: 29 August 2014, 07:22 by Jackie Treehorn »

Offline caprigreen

  • Here all the time
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: Performance Pack Diff Questions
« Reply #18 on: 29 August 2014, 08:01 »
Lol

tech info aside, the sport button near the gearstick doesn't appear to have any relation on the PP diff. ESC enhanced settings in sport is a separate feature.  That's the way i read it anyway.


also the PP cars get the std diff in the gearbox casing and a torsion applied clutch pack diff on the side, that's hydraulically controlled.

someone must know on here, the cars have been out a while and so many people are driving them. I want to make sure i understand what things do on my cars and how they wear mechanically so i can be sympathetic to them. But i guess most just drive, and look at the next car purchase at the end of the lease.

I quite agree as I like to look after my cars even if it will be following owners who see the benefit.
Is the diff on the PP a safety feature that could help me during normal driving or in the wet or is it just something which only comes into use when driven hard or on the track. Safety is important it worries be a little when reports say you need to bury the throttle in the corner to trigger the benefit. I have an interest in road safety during to my profession  :smiley:
64 plate VW Golf GTI PP Pure white
1991 VW Golf GTI 8v Silver, 30k miles

Offline Black oil

  • Not said much yet
  • **
  • Posts: 64
Re: Performance Pack Diff Questions
« Reply #19 on: 29 August 2014, 09:14 »
Best thing to do is find a big,open,empty,wet roundabout and start playing.
Mk7 Gti.5dr.Deep black pearl,PP,acc,nav pro,pano roof,leather,winter pack,dynaudio.Rather nice.