Author Topic: Cancelling  (Read 16728 times)

Offline CraigW

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Re: Cancelling
« Reply #30 on: 10 October 2013, 10:55 »
I don't know why you would even consider a MK5 GTI. They are looking so dated nowadays.

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: Cancelling
« Reply #31 on: 10 October 2013, 11:06 »
Hadn’t realised we were talking MK5 GTI rather than the MK5 equivalent to the GTD. Similar figures apply for GTI as per GT Sport TDI170 (depreciation), although fuel, insurance and car tax savings on the MK7 GTD are going to be even more pronounced, making it even better value to get the MK7 GTD. Similar 0-62 times (7.2s officially on MK5 GTI vs 7.5 on the GTD), although in gear acceleration on the GTD will be superior (it matches the MK6 GTI for 40-70mph in 4th/5th).
Whey ya bugger! It's finally arrived after an 8 month wait....
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Offline matchboy

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Re: Cancelling
« Reply #32 on: 10 October 2013, 11:12 »
I don't know why you would even consider a MK5 GTI. They are looking so dated nowadays.

+1  Great car at the time, I loved mine - but very dated now.  Particularly in the cabin.
Audi RS5 2018
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Previous: Mk 3 Audi TTS, Porsche 981 Cayman S, Mk 7 Golf R, Mk 7 GTI, Mk 6 GTI, Mk 5 GTI and so on....

Offline dubber36

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Re: Cancelling
« Reply #33 on: 10 October 2013, 11:13 »
Not taking options into account, he's told us that he's paying £25k for the car. Your assumption of a 10% discount would give the car a RRP of £27,777. 55% of that in 3 years time would be £15,277. Take that figure away from the original £25,000 and you're left with £9723 in deprciation. It's very simple maths, isn't it?

He also told us earlier that the Mk5 would be bought for cash, so there is also interest to add to the cost of the new GTD. Surely having an unencumbered car with no monthly payments is worth something?

When I said Mk5 values have leveled out, what I meant was they will not depreciate at anywhere near the rate of a much newer car in actual hard cash terms. A rule of thumb guide is that most cars will depreciate by 25% year on year. If you are starting with a much lower amount of money (i.e. the price of a Mk5 GTI) then it stands to reason that 25% year on year depreciation will be far less than that of a new car.

I fully understand that the new car will cost less to run as the Mk5 will require more replacement parts and servicing, but the savings made by choosing the older car will pay for all that and much much more. I know, I did it myself with my previous Passat that I had for 8 years.
Red Mk6 gone replaced with a white Mk7 which has gone too. Green Mk2 here to stay.

Ricepop

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Re: Cancelling
« Reply #34 on: 10 October 2013, 11:40 »
The Mk 5 GTI I was looking at is £10,000 for a 2008.

You can find them for £12,000.

That means that the Mk 5 GTI has lost 50% of its value in 5 years. (I know its a forecourt price)

Either way there are so many variables to consider its a nightmare. Add into this my company pays 15p per mile for the diesel and 18p per mile for the petrol. however I can claim 40% of the difference between that and 45p in tax.

Alternatively I could pay for my private miles at the above rates.

The more you look into it, the more complicated it gets.

If only I hade a nice shiny car to take my mind off it.

I rang the dealer to get an update on the progress of the GTD, guess what, he hasn't got back to me.

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: Cancelling
« Reply #35 on: 10 October 2013, 12:40 »
It's very simple maths, isn't it?


Yes, it’s very simple maths. Nowt wrong with my maths on the assumptions I made either. You assume retained value less than GFV, 60% is more realistic. GFV is a worst case figure that isn’t massively out from reality, but is still out. You also assume that 55% will be retained on £2777 of optional equipment, which won’t be the case. The way I would consider depreciation, I would keep the cost of the car and the options apart – options will always cost you a lot of money unless they can be transferred to the next car and not everyone takes up options. You make a slightly different set of assumptions to mine and the difference can be a few thousand pounds. Taking into account significantly lower ongoing running costs (as I did, but you have not given any consideration to) wipes out some of the higher depreciation of the new car – you can’t avoid running costs.

Interest rates are subjective – some have the money sitting in the bank, some don’t. Some will get a loan cheaper than the rate VW finance is offering (bank loans of 5.0% APR are freely available to people with a decent credit rating).

In terms of depreciation we’re not taking most cars – by the terms you are talking in (25% year on year), the GTD would only be retaining 42% after 3 years. The biggest depreciation cost on any car bought from a forecourt is the forecourt’s profit margin. Buy a 4 year old £10k GTI and decide it isn’t for you, you’ll get offered £8k p/x if you’re being treated fairly, 20% wiped out immediately is usually the case. To have bought privately and run for 3 years is the smarter option – it will cut the OP’s depreciation in half vs going through a dealer – you have to be confident to know you’re not buying a lemon – reassurance of buying from a dealership comes at quite a price.

Everyone has their threshold of what they’re prepared to pay for a car and run it. I think I demonstrated competently that there isn’t a lot of money between running a new GTD (if you buy wisely, get a discount and minimise the options) and a 4 or 5 year old GTI which will have similar performance, but it’s lower depreciation will be countered with much higher running costs (fuel/road tax/insurance/potential for repairs and maintenance).

For running that car only 10k miles per year, if we assume the MK5 GTI will give an average of 35mpg and the GTD 55mpg (both 20% under book combined) over the 3 years, assume that the GTI is running 95RON at 135p per litre and GTD is running diesel at 140p per litre, and that the GTIs brakes/tyres are half worn (so consider half the cost of a set of tyres and pads), the GTI is a stonking £260 a year to tax vs £20 on a manual GTD.

The GTI costs £2942 more to run without even considering insurance implications (a MK5 GTI costs me almost twice as much to insure as a MK7 GTD/GTI):-

£1802 fuel
£740 tax (£780 vs 2 x £20 as first year on GTD is free)
£400 for half the cost of a set of tyres and brake pads

Higher mileages really open up that fuelling difference that will be significantly higher than the effect on depreciation for the higher mileage accrued on either car.

Bottom line is about £1500 PA depreciation lost on the the GTI plus £1000 PA in extra running costs over a 3 door GTD that if bought for 90% of RRP (exclude options) and retains 60% of it's RRP at 3 years old, loses £2500 per year or thereabouts. Result: Same cost to own, run for 3 years and sell on - excludes insurance implications (in GTDs favour in all cases) and interest costs (in GTIs favour, assuming buyer needs to borrow).
Whey ya bugger! It's finally arrived after an 8 month wait....
MK7 R 5 door, manual, Lapiz Blue, Prets.

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: Cancelling
« Reply #36 on: 10 October 2013, 12:45 »
The Mk 5 GTI I was looking at is £10,000 for a 2008.

You can find them for £12,000.

That means that the Mk 5 GTI has lost 50% of its value in 5 years. (I know its a forecourt price)

Either way there are so many variables to consider its a nightmare. Add into this my company pays 15p per mile for the diesel and 18p per mile for the petrol. however I can claim 40% of the difference between that and 45p in tax.

Alternatively I could pay for my private miles at the above rates.

The more you look into it, the more complicated it gets.

If only I hade a nice shiny car to take my mind off it.

I rang the dealer to get an update on the progress of the GTD, guess what, he hasn't got back to me.

At average 10k PA mileage, the only real difference between the 2 costs wise is losses to be made on your options, interest to be paid on the GTD loan you wouldn't need for the GTI and insurance, which would be lower for the GTD (I pay £270 for the GTD vs £505 quote on a MK5 GTI). You also have to consider the potential for costly out of warranty work on the MK5 GTI. The MK7 is massively better than the MK5 in every aspect.
Whey ya bugger! It's finally arrived after an 8 month wait....
MK7 R 5 door, manual, Lapiz Blue, Prets.

Offline p3asa

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Re: Cancelling
« Reply #37 on: 10 October 2013, 12:58 »
Hey Monkeyhanger, are you available for financial guidance hire?!  :grin:
Some great advice there.
HIS: R 5dr DSG Lapiz: Tech Pack: Keyless: 90% Tints: Pretorias: Rear View Camera
HERS:  GTI 5dr Manual DBP: Parking Pack: Car-Net App: 90% Privacy Glass. Ordered 05-12-15. Delivered 03-03-16
DONATED TO SON:  GTD 5dr Manual White: Nav Pro: Dynaudio: Winter Pack: Sport & Sound Pack: Rear View Camera: Park Assist. Ordered 19-02-14. Delivered: 07-06-14

Offline dubber36

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Re: Cancelling
« Reply #38 on: 10 October 2013, 13:13 »

Bottom line is about £1500 PA depreciation lost on the the GTI plus £1000 PA in extra running costs over a 3 door GTD that if bought for 90% of RRP (exclude options) and retains 60% of it's RRP at 3 years old, loses £2500 per year or thereabouts. Result: Same cost to own, run for 3 years and sell on - excludes insurance implications (in GTDs favour in all cases) and interest costs (in GTIs favour, assuming buyer needs to borrow).

I will agree with you with saying that the used GTI will cost £7500 in depreciation and extra running costs over 3 years, but never in a million years will a new GTD loose no more than that amount over the same amount of time. You can wipe the VAT from a cars value the moment you put a name on the logbook. On a £25k car, that's £4200. A good way into your £7500 on the first day.

What also needs to be considered is how much equity will be left in either car at the end of the term. If the Mk5 is bought without finance, he will still own a car that's worth what it's worth. With the new car, especially if it's on a PCP, he'll be left with a small amount of equity, or a car that he needs to find another considerable chunk of money to pay to finally own it.
Red Mk6 gone replaced with a white Mk7 which has gone too. Green Mk2 here to stay.

Ricepop

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Re: Cancelling
« Reply #39 on: 10 October 2013, 13:22 »

At average 10k PA mileage, the only real difference between the 2 costs wise is losses to be made on your options, interest to be paid on the GTD loan you wouldn't need for the GTI and insurance, which would be lower for the GTD (I pay £270 for the GTD vs £505 quote on a MK5 GTI). You also have to consider the potential for costly out of warranty work on the MK5 GTI. The MK7 is massively better than the MK5 in every aspect.

It looks like you have been round the houses like I have.

I do about 16,000 miles per year however about 10,000 are business miles that are paid for. that leaves me with about 500 miles per month to pay for myself.

The other thing I considered is the rising cost of fuel. As it gets higher the differential between diesel and petrol seems to be constant, this means that diesel becomes more cost effective.

I worked out that the overall cost of buying a GTD is £4k more than a 6 year old GTI over 3 years. (just over £100 per month.)