Author Topic: GTD+  (Read 60807 times)

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #90 on: 22 October 2013, 08:50 »
Well the TDI-tuning.co.uk mpg in middle mode experiment is over. I have tried to limit the variables as much as possible.

I ran out pretty much all the standard fuel that came with the car to empty. It then had a full tank of V-power which was ran through. Then I did a “control” fuel usage of around 183 miles and then topped up with V-power to see what standard usage was. I then ran the TDI-tuning box on for 223 miles and topped up last night, again with V-power. My actual (brim) mpg vs indicated has been all over the place for the 3 times I have filled up:-

Full tank 1 = 42.4mpg actual vs 46.5mpg indicated. Indicated = actual + 9.7%
Top up 1 (control) = 42.5mpg actual vs 44.0mpg indicated. Indicated = actual + 3.5%
Top up 2 (tuning box) = 42.3mpg actual vs 45.3mpg indicated. Indicated = actual + 7.1%

What I can say between approx. 120 miles (when the “free” fuel was used up) and 950 miles is that my actual mpg has remained pretty constant (variance either side of mean is 0.2%), even though the indicated mpg has been all over the place between 3.5% and 9.7%. This means that my car hasn’t improved at all in actual mpg, whether this is due to my driving it a little harder as the miles go on negating any gains that would be seen in driving it exactly the same way remains to be seen.

I kept my use of V-power throughout so that there weren’t any filling discrepancies e.g. different foaming characteristics causing the first click to full to come in earlier or later. Also using the same fuel throughout ensures that any gains/losses seen are attributable to the car alone and not due in any way to fuel differences causing changes to mpg. I suspect that I will achieve better mpg by switching back to normal Shell Diesel, but wanted to appraise the effects of the box on mpg thoroughly, so stuck to V-power.

My driving style is fairly sensible – I get up to whatever speed I am trying to attain quickly with moderately hard acceleration and then stay there. Once up to speed I am very economical in my driving style – I anticipate the traffic ahead well (looking well beyond the car in front – unless it is a van) and allow the car to decelerate as much as possible when needing to slow down because traffic ahead is slowing, approaching roundabouts and junctions etc. I would normally expect to get good mpg with my style of driving.

I know that once the box was on (top up 2), I was accelerating a little harder than I had been, to get up to speed, but otherwise the rest of my drive was as normal. For this I seem to have suffered no mpg penalty or any modest running in gains that I would’ve seen have been wiped out by the box.

It was nice to have that extra power on tap with the box in its middle setting (4 of 7) – supposedly the balance between power and economy. If power increase is linear between settings 1 and 7, and the boasted 243PS top output is to be believed then setting 4 should have been putting out about 213PS. I could certainly tell the difference between the box and stock power, but the power comes in linearly with the pedal – the extra power is easy to control, it’s not an “all or nothing” situation. The car seems to pull no differently than stock below 1500rpm. It seemed to me that the boxed car was at least as potent with the pedal down to just before the “kickdown” click as stock is with the accelerator pedal buried into the carpet.

After filling up last night I put the car into setting 7 of 7. The road was slightly damp and my Bridgestone tyres are sh!te in the damp. I tried to give the car a quick blast up the coast road for a junction. There is a certain road sign that I used as a marker. I accelerate off the filter lane and see what speed I can get to as I pass the sign. In my old 140TDI PD MK5 Golf this was 70mph, MK5 170TDI PD = 80mph, Scirocco 140TDI CR = 78mph and Scirocco 170TDI CR (which fully ran in felt every bit as fast as my GTD is now without box) = 83mph.

Consider that it is damp and I have Bridgestones. I accelerated quite hard (but being cautious) in 3rd. As I got a bit braver but still respecting the fact I have tyres that are sh!te in the damp, I pressed a little harder – wheelspin in 3rd at 65mph, traction control kicking in and I was nowhere near the sign. I backed right off the power and changed to 4th, passing the sign at about 80mph. I would’ve easily nailed 90 on a dry day or with better tyres.

This morning I did my daily commute and I was using a lot less accelerator pedal travel due to the extra power available. My indicated mpg for the journey was an unusually high 48.9mpg. I did a few spurts of acceleration more than I normally would’ve done. If I’d been a bit more sensible 50mpg was easily within reach. Of course I expect that the difference between actual and indicated to have opened up even further and the actual is probably still around 42.5mpg.

So I have a bit of a dilemma. A box that gives you more power on tap (a lot more power) and if used sensibly will not cost you any appreciable extra in fuel. Don’t forget though that I also have the death-trap Bridgestones. If I were to try and make the most out of the box in anything but the dry with my tyres, I would do myself (and my car) a serious injury. I have all that extra power available yet VWs poor choice of tyres for my car will see me unable to use half of it safely. Is the box really worth it for me while I still have my Bridgestones?

I consider these tyres to be unfit for purpose because even without the box on, they are atrocious in the damp. The so called “anti tramping” feature does not work with Bridgestones. Without the box, anything more than 40% throttle to pull away from a busy roundabout or junction in the damp will have you spinning on the spot and thumping the road with your front wheels. Give it more than 60% throttle doing 12-15mph in second and again you will start to spin and the traction control will be working overtime. I can’t see myself getting anywhere with VW warranty by claiming the tyres are unfit for purpose due to poor grip in the wet. It’s like they’ve taken an Olympic sprinter and given him slippers to run in! I feel aggrieved that to get my car to perform optimally and safely (without the box), I will need to shell out for at least a pair of alternative tyres on the fronts. If these tyres are sh!te on a damp road, I’m sure they will perform a lot worse as the temperature drops and the compound is even harder and less yielding in use.
Whey ya bugger! It's finally arrived after an 8 month wait....
MK7 R 5 door, manual, Lapiz Blue, Prets.

Offline andyk11

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #91 on: 22 October 2013, 20:19 »
Thanks for the detailed report MH.  Sounds like there's quite a step up in power from setting 4 to 7?

So, will you be keeping the box?  :cool:
Tornado Red GTD ordered 25th April, confirmed BW34. Built sometime in BW36, now in the UK and delivered 27/09 :-)

Offline Buddy

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #92 on: 22 October 2013, 21:15 »
Keep it!

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #93 on: 23 October 2013, 08:45 »
Yeah, quite a step up in power from setting 4 to 7 – it’s a pity that fear of losing grip with my crappy Bridgestones in the damp stops me from realistically using more than what is available to me on setting 4.

Just wondering if it is coincidence that I had my first regen in 600 miles within 40 miles of ramping up to setting 7.

Buddy – have you noticed more regens on setting 7?

Just got to work and unplugged the box (but left it in situ) and refitted the original plugs – will see how the car drives tonight and tomorrow without it now that I have experienced the extra power. It’ll probably be going back unless Adrian Flux give me a quote within £70 of my lowest quote on comparethemarket.com, or if stock output now feels really poor.

With the actual mpg not changing and the indicated mpg going up when you up the power, I think the only thing getting bigger is the discrepancy between how much fuel the car is using and how much power the car thinks it is using because you are using less throttle on a more powerful delivery, but the car is using more fuel for that throttle travel with the box when compared to without. MFD mpg definitely seems to be calculated at the common rail sensor whose input the box is altering. Moral of the story – listen to Bruce.

The opportunity I have to really let fly with that extra power on my commute is almost nil (busy roads that seem to flow nicely, but not particularly quickly), and with my sh!tty grip Bridgestone tyres that is probably no bad thing.

I think the thing I find most weird with the GTD with stock power is that even with 30Nm torque more than my Scirocco, it seems less eager to just pull on the torque – it wants to be revved through the gears more, as if that torque is available only if the turbo has had a good run already because it has been through the gears. When the car has been sitting at 1800rpm in 6th at 60mpg and you put your foot down, it seems to have less pull than my Scirocco would have in the same situation or than putting your foot down at 1800rpm in 6th after changing up from 4th through a run of acceleration. Maybe the engine is still very tight at 980 miles and that will change. My Scirocco loosened off a lot at 320 miles/500Km as if it had been on some kind of running in program and the mpg didn’t appreciably increase since.

Sometimes I am a bit too sensible for my own good! I definitely scrutinise every detail.
Whey ya bugger! It's finally arrived after an 8 month wait....
MK7 R 5 door, manual, Lapiz Blue, Prets.

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #94 on: 23 October 2013, 10:36 »
Haven’t tried Sky insurance yet, but given that the TDI-tuning.co.uk box came with a card for Adrian Flux and my insurance is due for renewal next month anyway, I thought I’d give them a look for a quote with declared box to see what the damage is.

Best comparison site result for me is £265 (£250 total excess) for standard unmodified GTD, with protected no claims (12 years no claims) and the 3 points I acquired this year.
Adrian Flux said they couldn’t get near that without the box, but with the box declared they come in at £375 (£500 total excess). From that I got the impression that the box didn’t add much to their standard unmodified prices.

So the price for staying legal for me is £110 a year to get an extra 59PS on tap which I have hardly made use of – about what I was thinking it would be. Quite reasonable, considering the next best comparison quote after Esure and Sheila’s Wheels is around £335 without the box.

Will have to think hard tonight and tomorrow morning whether I’m that appreciative of the extra power now I have disconnected the box to be keeping it and paying £110 for the privilege.
Whey ya bugger! It's finally arrived after an 8 month wait....
MK7 R 5 door, manual, Lapiz Blue, Prets.

Offline CraigW

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #95 on: 23 October 2013, 13:28 »
Haven’t tried Sky insurance yet, but given that the TDI-tuning.co.uk box came with a card for Adrian Flux and my insurance is due for renewal next month anyway, I thought I’d give them a look for a quote with declared box to see what the damage is.

Best comparison site result for me is £265 (£250 total excess) for standard unmodified GTD, with protected no claims (12 years no claims) and the 3 points I acquired this year.
Adrian Flux said they couldn’t get near that without the box, but with the box declared they come in at £375 (£500 total excess). From that I got the impression that the box didn’t add much to their standard unmodified prices.

So the price for staying legal for me is £110 a year to get an extra 59PS on tap which I have hardly made use of – about what I was thinking it would be. Quite reasonable, considering the next best comparison quote after Esure and Sheila’s Wheels is around £335 without the box.

Will have to think hard tonight and tomorrow morning whether I’m that appreciative of the extra power now I have disconnected the box to be keeping it and paying £110 for the privilege.

Have you tried quotes from any other insurance companies with the box including your current insurer?

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #96 on: 23 October 2013, 13:55 »
Have you tried quotes from any other insurance companies with the box including your current insurer?

My current insurer wants £358 for my GTD without mods for my impending renewal. Will they add the box for less than £17 to match Adrian Flux? No chance. The next cheapest insurers after esure for me are all within £40 of my Adrian Flux modded quote without the box. Adding the box for a 32% increase in power for only £40 just isn’t going to happen.

The Adrian Flux price is coppers more than my unmodded 170TDI Scirocco was last year (£360, before I got my 3 points). I will try Sky Insurance. But mod-unfriendly insurance firms are going to do no better than Adrian Flux. Esure won’t touch anything with more than a 20% gain (which might be why some other boxes are only quoting  215PS output) If I was wanting to keep the box that much then I’d take the £110 hit for declaring it.

I’ll probably make my mind up tonight about keeping it or not. I’ll be coming home tonight at around 9pm on a relatively quiet dual carriageway road to be able to see if I’m happy with the stock output. I have not gotten any actual mpg gains with this box, just more optimistic indicated mpg. The power increase cannot be denied, it is colossal, but the super-cautious side of me says VW didn’t design this engine as it stands, to withstand an extra 32% output - certainly not the turbo, unless it is bigger than the one in the MK6GTD/Scirocco 170TDI.
Whey ya bugger! It's finally arrived after an 8 month wait....
MK7 R 5 door, manual, Lapiz Blue, Prets.

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #97 on: 23 October 2013, 14:27 »
Just had the Adrian Flux docs emailed to me with my offer of cover/quotation.

The £375 quote includes 2 optional £15 add-on policies for lost keys and personal accident payout cover. On the assumption I can remove these (which certainly seems to be the case), then the cover drops to £345 – a mere £80 more than my Esure quote, and £45 of that is admin fee/commission.
Whey ya bugger! It's finally arrived after an 8 month wait....
MK7 R 5 door, manual, Lapiz Blue, Prets.

Offline CraigW

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #98 on: 23 October 2013, 15:23 »
Just had the Adrian Flux docs emailed to me with my offer of cover/quotation.

The £375 quote includes 2 optional £15 add-on policies for lost keys and personal accident payout cover. On the assumption I can remove these (which certainly seems to be the case), then the cover drops to £345 – a mere £80 more than my Esure quote, and £45 of that is admin fee/commission.

That's not too bad then. I wouldn't worry too much about the tolerance level of the engine with the additonal bhp and torque. Generally, these engines tend to be detuned by manufacturers when they come out the factory so an increase of 60bhp or so should still comfortably be within safe operating perameters.

As you say, you probably need to see how it now feels after reverting back to standard to get an idea as to whether you think you are going to miss that extra performance or not.

I had a brief look at insurance quotes with my current insurer (Admiral) and noted that although they allowed you to select the option of a 25% plus increase in bhp, as soon as you clicked it they withdrew their quote.

If i was going for a box i think i would stick to one that was under 20% gains as i couldnt be bothered with the hassle of trying to find a specialist insurance company let alone the likely considerable increase in price     

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: GTD+
« Reply #99 on: 23 October 2013, 22:00 »
Presumably the additional load on the clutch due to the extra torque needs consideration too ? Does anyone know what the clutch is rated too ?

Not sure. 6 speed DSG is rated for 450Nm I read somewhere, the manual clutch has to be more resilient than that.

Didn't get a chance to put my foot down on the way home (to really feel what "normal" feels again) tonight @8:30. Just as I was getting past the last speed camera in the 50mph zone to get to the 70mph zone and put my foot down - a police car joins the coast road and nigh-on follows me home so I had to be good.

For the sedate drive I was having, the only thing I really noticed was having to give a lot more throttle to achieve the same effect in anything more than minimal acceleration. Hopefully I get a chance on the way to work to put my foot down on the coast road to get past the marker sign that I could pass at 83mph in the Scirocco.

Tomorrow is decision time. I will need to have made my mind up for it going back and contact the sellers to arrange return. Right now my GTD with 1006 miles on still feels tight as a drum compared to the old Scirocco when it hit 320 miles/500Km and became a bit of an animal.

Adrian Flux is a lot cheaper than Sky insurance for adding the box and declaring it.

As for components - i'm a lot more concerned about the turbo longevity than the clutch longevity.
« Last Edit: 23 October 2013, 22:04 by monkeyhanger »
Whey ya bugger! It's finally arrived after an 8 month wait....
MK7 R 5 door, manual, Lapiz Blue, Prets.