Author Topic: New Sachs Clutch is slipping!  (Read 9940 times)

GTiAnniversaryMan

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New Sachs Clutch is slipping!
« on: 30 July 2012, 19:17 »
Hi People

It's been a wile since my Anni was written off so have not been posting lately. Got a problem with my A3 Sport 170 TDi and I hoped you guys might be able to help.

Car: '06 A3 170 TDi remapped to 205 BHP and about 320 torques. It's done 86K. Original (I beleive) clutch started to slip when I gave it welly in gears 4-6. It got more pronounced so - logical conclusion - clutch is getting tired needs replacing. Bought full Sachs Organic including DMF and release bearing. My mechanic fitted it and took it for a test run. Took it really steady as it needed bedding in. At about 35mph in 4th he had to give it a little bit of throttle to to get through some lights and it slipped. He had not just changed gear and his foot was resting on the foot rest. Tried a little throttle (just enough to get some boost) in 5th and it slipped again!

He and I both surprised that the pedal was as light as it was with OEM clutch. Also OEM clutch was not actually badly worn enough to explain slipping.

Advice from supplier is clutch needs bedding in fully over 5-800 miles. I assumed that meant don't go doing timed runs at Santa Pod or hold it for five minute on a hill etc. Apparaently it means driving it like a granny at just over tickover!

I have now done 350 miles in it driving gently. Yesterday I had to just give it a short blip on the throttle (no more than a quarter) in 4th and it slipped.

Supplier and mechanic mystified. This is an uprated clutch and should easily handle 370 BHP+. (BTW the OEM clutch in my chipped Golf Anni (190BHP and 300 torques) never slipped)

ANY IDEAS?

Mechanic says he had a Civic with similar symptoms and it turned out to be the flexihose to the clutch slave cylinder which had collapsed internally and was preventing the fluid retuning back to the master - effctively causing symptoms similar to resting your foot on the clutch pedal. He's goig to check mine out in next few days.

If anyone has any other ideas - please tell.

Thanks in advance

Alan

Offline Wayne

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Re: New Sachs Clutch is slipping!
« Reply #1 on: 30 July 2012, 21:52 »
Are you sure that the crank seal is all ok and no oil is getting onto the clutch.

GTiAnniversaryMan

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Re: New Sachs Clutch is slipping!
« Reply #2 on: 30 July 2012, 22:02 »
Are you sure that the crank seal is all ok and no oil is getting onto the clutch.

Hi Wayne

Mechanic checked it all before install. Dry as a bone.

Regards
Alan

Offline danny_p

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Re: New Sachs Clutch is slipping!
« Reply #3 on: 31 July 2012, 22:34 »
warped flywheel face,    got hot with the last clutch slipping and it distorted,  new clutch can't grip full area now so slips to easy
all the VW's have gone bar 1.

Offline AudiA8Quattro

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Re: New Sachs Clutch is slipping!
« Reply #4 on: 31 July 2012, 22:39 »
Didn't he say he replaced the DMF?
I reckon something in the new kit is faulty, it shouldn't need to be bedded in like that..
FOR DIY GUIDES GO TO <br>www.volkswagenaudi.co.uk<br/>BRAKES, SUSPENSION, CV JOINTS

GTiAnniversaryMan

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Re: New Sachs Clutch is slipping!
« Reply #5 on: 31 July 2012, 22:59 »
Didn't he say he replaced the DMF?
I reckon something in the new kit is faulty, it shouldn't need to be bedded in like that..

Correct - I replaced the DMF and (as an engineer but not a mechanic) whilst I would expect it might take a few (hundred?) applications of the clutch to 'wear' all the friction surfaces to match each other, I would also expect the clutch to be pretty much 100% usable from day one - as some others have reported was the case with them.

Offline danny_p

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Re: New Sachs Clutch is slipping!
« Reply #6 on: 03 August 2012, 21:42 »
Didn't he say he replaced the DMF?
I reckon something in the new kit is faulty, it shouldn't need to be bedded in like that..

Correct - I replaced the DMF and (as an engineer but not a mechanic) whilst I would expect it might take a few (hundred?) applications of the clutch to 'wear' all the friction surfaces to match each other, I would also expect the clutch to be pretty much 100% usable from day one - as some others have reported was the case with them.

sorry missed that bit skim reading,   flywheel can often be the issue as very few people ever bother to check them if reuseing.

clutch should have been fine from moment of fitting  obviously over a short time its max torque handeing will increase a bit  but i've never given new clutches any spectial care before  and they've allways been fine 
all the VW's have gone bar 1.

GTiAnniversaryMan

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Re: New Sachs Clutch is slipping!
« Reply #7 on: 10 August 2012, 23:55 »
Got the car back thre days ago. I have been driving around for a few days. Now done close on 700 miles of 'bedding in'. Master cylinder and restrictor valves all new. Flexi hose carefully checked and is fine.

Decided to test the clutch a little: 2000 rpm 4th gear then gave it half throttle. Car accelerates then rpm suddenly jumps 2-300 and drops back as soon as I lift off. DAMN! It feels like switching out of overdrive or an automatic kick down but without the acceleration!

So next I initiate the slip four times on the trot. Each time the slip gets a little less! The fifth time, almost no slip in 4th. Tried 5th at 2500 rpm - still some slip. Stopped and left car for 30 mins. On journey home clutch slip in 4th is back - same as before! Note: I am being very careful not to hold the slip for more than a second or two, and I'm giving it time between each one to let the disc cool.

Also when I take my foot off the throttle there's a sort of pause where there is no drive (like neutral) for 1-2 seconds then the engine braking seems to 'feed' in.

So nothing else for it. Going to have it pulled out next week and check:

Auto adjustment?
All part numbers correct?
Contamination?
Pressure plate wrong way round?
Bolts too long/pressuere plate properly seated/bolted?
Overly thick pressure plate?
Difference in overall thickness of assembly compared to original?

Any other suggestions welcomed.

Offline danny_p

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Re: New Sachs Clutch is slipping!
« Reply #8 on: 11 August 2012, 00:31 »
this is an intresting one.

as the oem clutch was slipping and not badly worn and the replacement is slipping it's makeing me think that the fault lies elsewhere.

the symptoms you've described dont sound like contamination to me.   its almost sounds like there is an issue with actuating the clutch as in ether the slave cyl isn't fully returning or pressure is been held in the system.

not done a clutch in that exact model of car but it's usally nigh on inpossible to get a friction disk in the wrong way round just dosent fit ,
hydralic clutches are auto adjusting by nature and in theory cannot over adjust ( unless something is broken )
isn't going to be the bolts to long or seated wrong - give your mecanic some credit.


all the VW's have gone bar 1.

GTiAnniversaryMan

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Re: New Sachs Clutch is slipping!
« Reply #9 on: 11 August 2012, 02:15 »
this is an intresting one.

as the oem clutch was slipping and not badly worn and the replacement is slipping it's makeing me think that the fault lies elsewhere.

the symptoms you've described dont sound like contamination to me.   its almost sounds like there is an issue with actuating the clutch as in ether the slave cyl isn't fully returning or pressure is been held in the system.

not done a clutch in that exact model of car but it's usally nigh on inpossible to get a friction disk in the wrong way round just dosent fit ,
hydralic clutches are auto adjusting by nature and in theory cannot over adjust ( unless something is broken )
isn't going to be the bolts to long or seated wrong - give your mecanic some credit.


Hi Danny

Mechanic has just had the car back for a week (mainly waiting for the right bits to come in) and we've eliminated all of the external hydraulic side. The slave/release bearing was new (supplied with clutch) so should be OK. Cant see how the pressure could be held in system now. However; you are right it does seem like it. Symptoms are not unlike leaving your foot on pedal!

I take your point about both old and new clutch slipping. Mechanic and I have both been concerned about this. Especially as old clutch not badly worn! Hence why we have been checking/replacing the hydraulic side. That said the old clutch was just 'giving in' and if I floored it in fifth and it started slipping it would just carry on until I backed off and I could just flick the Tacho round the dial by blipping the throttle. The new clutch on day one was jumping up 500 rpm and then sort of holding until the clutch caught up with the engine then (engine now at 2500-3000 rpm) I can put foot down again and it's OK. It's a bit mysterious! At present we think the old clutch just wasn't man enough to cope with the remap whereas the Sachs is (almost).

I am pretty certain disc is in right way. It was put in with the longer boss facing the gearbox which Sachs confirmed was correct. On the SRE Sachs the longer one is short enough to allow it to mount the wrong way but, again Sachs, say even so it would hardly make any difference. You can't mount the plate the wrong way on the LUK clutch we took out - the boss is too long!

I doubt the bolts were too long. I've used mechanic for years and he is meticulous but he is cocerned that pressure plate might not be properly mounted or adjusted. This is because when the clutch kit arrived it was part assembled, with the clutch disc sandwiched between the pressure plate and DMF. The bolts were pinched up. He was worried that the auto adjustment would automatically move to its max (worn pressure plate) position when he separated the parts and, if so, would need winding back with a special tool. Darkside assured us that this was not a problem and the cluch could be made to auto adjust  by pressing the clutch pedal 10+ times before turning the engine on. He is still concerned that this is not good practise and that the clutch cover may have readjusted itself unevenly, or not at all. I note, from this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp5KeAQntGM&feature=related from ZF Services that they recommend a special tool to pre load the clutch during installation otherwise the self adjuster may render the clutch inoperative. Obviously we are both keen to photograph the position of the adjusters etc when he pulls it apart next week.

Obviously; any more thoughts would be welcomed.