Author Topic: Saggy arse?  (Read 5361 times)

Offline AudiA8Quattro

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Re: Saggy arse?
« Reply #20 on: 24 April 2005, 19:03 »
Off course i'll leave off, so admit i am right  :laugh:, seizing brake calipers is a major problem on mk2's, compressing the springs constantly will eventually make them sag, this much is obvious.
The upper bushes and components on the suspension can cause a slight drop, however if they are that bad you will know about it, as the suspension will knock like a f**k*r  :evil:
You are still wrong about the bump stops, they do not support the suspension, they stop it compressing too far.
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Offline AudiA8Quattro

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Re: Saggy arse?
« Reply #21 on: 24 April 2005, 19:05 »
Start working on cars mate, you might learn something  :laugh:
Quoting off clubgti won't really impress  :evil:

WTF do you know about me eh? Nothing!  I do all the repair work on my car, I don't claim to know everything and am willing to learn and admit when I'm wrong.  There's just no need for sarcy comments like this is there really?  Non of what I wrote was just quoted off 'some bloke on clubgti' It was from that thechnical article above which gives you a step by step guide showing you exactly what causes the problem and how to fix it.

Touchy touchy, put your handbag away  :rolleyes:
I'm not doubting your technical knowledge at all.
Infact the next time i want my bins emptied i'll ask you for a step by step guide  :laugh: :kiss:
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Offline rubjonny

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Re: Saggy arse?
« Reply #22 on: 24 April 2005, 19:12 »
I never said you were wrong did I?  What pissed me off was how you've basically been implying that I know feck all and what I'm saying isn't true.

Let me break it down:
The upper spring mounts do wear and split cauing a slight drop
The bump stops while they don't support the suspension the whole time, are needed to keep the back up when you are carrying a large load, and do perform damping as well.  Which is why the back end can crash so badly with alot of weight in the back if they are completely gone.
I agree that if the rear calipers are siezing the back will go down, and if left unnfixed for a long time wont do the rear springs any good.  All I asked is why you said it, you know to learn something! You could have just replied nicely rather than saying that I 'don't understand the basics of engineering' and giving me a load of grief.

I know the primary function of bumpstops is to stop the spring compressing too far :)  But they do help the rear damping, honestly!  Like I said before, that is why they are much larger than the front bump stops and are made of foam.

P.S. and the rear calipers on early MK3s are identical to the MK2 ones, so what does that tell you?
« Last Edit: 24 April 2005, 19:17 by rubjonny »
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Offline AudiA8Quattro

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Re: Saggy arse?
« Reply #23 on: 24 April 2005, 19:37 »
Indeed mk3 calipers 1992 are the same as mk2 calipers. 1993 onwards have the modified design.
What that tells me is vw were using up old stock, and changing the design as soon as possible.
Let me break it down for you again.
I agree about the upper spring mounts and bushings, however the effect on ride height is likely to be minimal.
The bump stops do perform a damping job, yes they do, but only when the suspension is compressed so far. BUT with the car standing still, the bumpstops won't affect the height of the car unless the spring is so far gone, in which case you would know about it. So the bumpstops being knackered WON'T be the cause of the car sagging on the rear, this will be caused by heavy wear on the coil spring.
Heavy wear on the rear coil springs will be caused eventually if the boot is always heavily loaded.
The wear will accelerated by seized brake calipers.
So yes i stand by my original comments, rear suspension sag is far more likely to be caused by seized brake calipers.
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Offline rubjonny

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Re: Saggy arse?
« Reply #24 on: 24 April 2005, 20:10 »
I didn't mean that knackered bumpstops on their own would cause the rear to drop.  I meant a combination of the two would cause the back end to sit lower especially if there is a load in the back because the springs would be more compressed (which would also likely be buggered if the bumpstops and top mounts are that worn) and so the bump stops would then come into play.

I agree with all your points, especially your point about knackered springs.  The only thing I don't agree with is that the springs are most likely to be knackered because of siezed calipers, though I do agree that it can and does happen that way.  Lets agree to disagree on that one :)  The way I see it most owners would notice their rear calipers had siezed almost straight away and fix it, it isn't something you can miss really.  Plus it affects all MK2s, including those with rear drums which are much less likely to sieze on.
In almost all cases where the rear springs are buggered the top mounts and bumpstops will be too, and make the problem worse.  Some people/garages might not replace the other components and just fix the obvious spring/damper combo, which still leakes you with a knackered top mount.
I would say the top mount and bump stop will wear out much faster than the springs though, since they are only rubber and foam. But that is just my oppinion really ;)

The important thing to say after all this is that the shocks, springs top mounts and bump stops should ALL be replaced when sorting the suspension, as they all will lead to a saggy rear end :grin:
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Offline AudiA8Quattro

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Re: Saggy arse?
« Reply #25 on: 24 April 2005, 20:26 »
Ok, but what would cause a coil spring to wear prematurely?
Heavy load over a long period of time, or partially seized or sticky brake calipers.
I agree with what you said about upper suspension bushings being worn causing a slight sag in height, however the bump stops/bushings being knackered aren't going to have much impact on ride height.
What will happen is if these components are heavily worn will be the suspension will knock.
What was originally asked on this thread was 'why is the back end sagging?'
the answer is obviously got to be worn coil springs.
However we do agree that only solution is to replace the lot, if in any doubt about the condition of the components.
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Offline rubjonny

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Re: Saggy arse?
« Reply #26 on: 24 April 2005, 21:44 »
Well if the springs are the original ones that were fitted then they could just be knackered, he never said that he had replaced the springs as well as the shocks.

The question 'why is the back end sagging' can have many answers, one is coil springs, the other is knackered top mounts.  These combined with the fact that the MK2 looks lower at the back anyway due to the design of the arches means that even a small drop is noticable.

The fact of the matter is both springs and/or top mounts can cause sagginess at the rear, so both mine and your answers were valid :)
Plus top mounts and bump stops should always be replaced at the same time as springs and shocks, unless they are very new.  They are so cheap to buy its really false echonomy not to.
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Offline Mart8V

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Re: Saggy arse?
« Reply #27 on: 24 April 2005, 23:57 »
Some more info!  Having been through all of the receipts from previous owner it appears that the rear springs are original.  As I have just had the front strut tops done I am guessing the rears may be on their way as well, but not had a chance to get underneath and check condition or stops.

Regarding calipers, NSR was binding so replaced it a couple of months ago.  OSR seems fine, and no evidence of binding when pads were replaced recently.

Thanks for the help so far, though.
« Last Edit: 25 April 2005, 00:02 by ukmrw1 »

Offline rubjonny

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Re: Saggy arse?
« Reply #28 on: 25 April 2005, 10:48 »
Yup I would definitely replace the springs, top mounts and bump stops.  The good news is the rear is much easier to do than the front, no special tools required, and you can usually get away without using spring compressors too :)

Check this site for a good guide on what you're up against:
http://www.btinternet.com/~john.wintle2/article/Sagging_suspension/Bumpstops.htm

I would get:
Rear Top Mount Kit Includes 2 upper and 2 lower mounts
Rear Spring Plate Upper spring mounting plate x2
Rear Bumpstop x2

And either a pair of 8v or 16v rear springs :)

From here:
http://www.vwspares.co.uk/g2suspension.html
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Offline Mart8V

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Re: Saggy arse?
« Reply #29 on: 25 April 2005, 11:59 »
Great stuff- thanks for that.  Will be a short term fix until I can afford the full set!