The hardest choice of all: GTI or R?

[Hurdy]

now a heavily modded R I would love to see!!   

Got your order in yet Hurdy??

Not saying!

[R32UK]

now a heavily modded R I would love to see!!   

Got your order in yet Hurdy??

Not saying!

Hmmm 

what will be happening to the Ed30??? not stripped i hope

[Hurdy]

now a heavily modded R I would love to see!!   

Got your order in yet Hurdy??

Not saying!

Hmmm 

what will be happening to the Ed30??? not stripped i hope

I'll not crack

[Ess_Three]

if the R32 was anything to go by.. i could corner about 10%+ faster than the gti. The R having some 20bhp more and being lighter is going to be a serious tool. Anyone thinking a regular (non-modded) GTI can keep up is just kidding themselves.

I don't see how you can corner any faster in an R32 over a Mk5 GTI when the chassis are fairly well matched on sweeping corners, and both offer the same grip.
You may be able to get out of tight low speed corners faster in an R32 due to traction...but on sweeping bends the GTI will be no slower as they have the same mechanical grip...and the Haldex is doing nothing meaningful then.

Much may be down to the driver...but I never found any difference once rolling.

In the case of a Mk6 GTI vs R, the GTI will have the same grip, less weight, but less power (60 BHP) but less losses (30-40 BHP less)...so power ATW difference will be down to 30ish BHP, in a car that's 100Kg less...that lot doesn't equate to a huge gain anywhere when it comes to cornering.

I found a Mk5 GTI perfectly able to stick with a S3 wet or dry in all but standing starts.
An R32 will understeer under power despite Haldex...the GTI will understeer under power regardless.
Why a Mk6 GTI would suddenly drop off a Mk6 R is something I just can't see....especially with XDS reducing the understeer.

Maybe the lighter engine of the R will make it easier to learn than the R32...assuming the R has a chassis as good as the GTIs...the weight vs power ATW difference just doesn't add up to a large gain, regardless of how you dress it up.

Re-map both and the R and it makes sense...300+ BHP and 300 + lb-ft with Haldex, compared to 260 BHP and 280 lb-ft FWD and you will start to eek out a gap - if the R's chassis lets you put the power down early without understeering or triggering the ESP.
Time will tell...

[R32UK]

if the R32 was anything to go by.. i could corner about 10%+ faster than the gti. The R having some 20bhp more and being lighter is going to be a serious tool. Anyone thinking a regular (non-modded) GTI can keep up is just kidding themselves.

I don't see how you can corner any faster in an R32 over a Mk5 GTI when the chassis are fairly well matched on sweeping corners, and both offer the same grip.
You may be able to get out of tight low speed corners faster in an R32 due to traction...but on sweeping bends the GTI will be no slower as they have the same mechanical grip...and the Haldex is doing nothing meaningful then.

Much may be down to the driver...but I never found any difference once rolling.

In the case of a Mk6 GTI vs R, the GTI will have the same grip, less weight, but less power (60 BHP) but less losses (30-40 BHP less)...so power ATW difference will be down to 30ish BHP, in a car that's 100Kg less...that lot doesn't equate to a huge gain anywhere when it comes to cornering.

I found a Mk5 GTI perfectly able to stick with a S3 wet or dry in all but standing starts.
An R32 will understeer under power despite Haldex...the GTI will understeer under power regardless.
Why a Mk6 GTI would suddenly drop off a Mk6 R is something I just can't see....especially with XDS reducing the understeer.

Maybe the lighter engine of the R will make it easier to learn than the R32...assuming the R has a chassis as good as the GTIs...the weight vs power ATW difference just doesn't add up to a large gain, regardless of how you dress it up.

Re-map both and the R and it makes sense...300+ BHP and 300 + lb-ft with Haldex, compared to 260 BHP and 280 lb-ft FWD and you will start to eek out a gap - if the R's chassis lets you put the power down early without understeering or triggering the ESP.
Time will tell...

i think your confusing grip with traction. its the long sweeping bends where the R will be better and alot faster than the GTI. As for the XDS.. it is no way a proper slip diff, just simply a means to stop the car spinning its wheels and wasting power, this does not mean more speed, just more controlled.

The R32 only understeers if you dont know how to drive it, a well pointed out point by many who have driven/owned one.

[Ess_Three]

i think your confusing grip with traction. its the long sweeping bends where the R will be better and alot faster than the GTI. As for the XDS.. it is no way a proper slip diff, just simply a means to stop the car spinning its wheels and wasting power, this does not mean more speed, just more controlled.

The R32 only understeers if you dont know how to drive it, a well pointed out point by many who have driven/owned one.

Not at all...but I trhink you maybe are!
Cornering speed is dictated by grip - not traction.
Accelleration is dictated by traction.
A Mk5GTI vs R32 or Mk6 GTI vs R have no difference in grip - assuming the chassis are set up fairly equally.
Grip, is phsical...tyre width, suspension angles etc.
Set the suspension up, and it's all down to the tyre footprint...grip is finite and measurable...and fairly equal accross a well set up R32/GTI.

So in my experience...on long sweeping bends where you aren't wheelspinning - or likely to - grip is equal...so cornering speed is equal...to the point centrifugal force & mass overcomes physical grip and the tyres break away.
In this case, the R32 will overcome the tyres break away and break away sooner than the GTI...making it theoretically slower in the corners!

I'm fully aware of what XDS is...it limits wheelspin wasting torque...so brings the gap between FWD and 4WD closer together. It'll never match it...but it will reduce the gap...so as I said, on a tight, wet corner, you will get out of it harder, and quicker in a 4WD car...
But for a sweeping corner where cornering speed is carried - not increased - the GTI is just as fast.

You can learn to drive a GTI/R32 for as long as you like...but you can't overcome physics.

[R32UK]

but thats my point... if you can get your power down sooner in a long sweeping bend the faster you can go. As power goes down in a FWD car the 2 fronts are trying to steer and put power down causing underseer. wheres as in the AWD more power is sent to the rears, pushing the back end round.

Yes the grip is the same but the pushing rather than pulling means the car is more stable and balanced. Also think your overlooking the fact that the R has a different suspension setup to the GTI.

And if you think both cars can take sweeping bends at the same speed, then I suggest looking at levels of g achievable in both cars. I have driven both cars and there is no way a GTI can live with a R32 through the twistys or even round round-abouts. See TG lap times for confirmation.

[Ess_Three]

but thats my point... if you can get your power down sooner in a long sweeping bend the faster you can go.

But on a long sweeping bend, it's unlikely you are wheelspinning on the FWD car...so you aren't wasting any torque...so having 4WD is doing nothing for you, except adding weight.
Why do the 4WD VW Cup cars not walk away with 10% faster times, if it were that simple?
FWD is only a hindrance to corner speed once you break the grip of the front tyres - on a FWD GTI that takes some doing on open sweeping bens.

On tight corners, hairpins, poor surfaces or in the wet, then I'd agree fully with you....which makes the R32 the faster car, more of the time...but not a clear cut 5 or 10% faster.

As power goes down in a FWD car the 2 fronts are trying to steer and put power down causing underseer.

True...
Balanced against the weight of the 3.2 V6...there is little in it in reality.
You can turn in later and harder in a GTI in my opinion, with less understeer...but you can come out harder and faster in the R32...

In Mk6 form, if the negatives of the R32 are gone, and it'll turn in like a GTI and power out like an R...then it'll be great.
But then the S3 still understeers...so what gives?

wheres as in the AWD more power is sent to the rears, pushing the back end round.

Or pushing the whole car wide?
A lot is down to driving style...I never got on with the R32 in either Mk4 or Mk5 form...now the boat anchor has gone...I may get on with a Mk6.
But others just can't take to FWD.

Regardless, I don't think it's possible to put a figure like 5% or 10% on the difference...as there are too many variables...and the outcome swings one way then the other readily.

Yes the grip is the same but the pushing rather than pulling means the car is more stable and balanced. Also think your overlooking the fact that the R has a different suspension setup to the GTI.

Had it been Torsen, I'd agree.
But stable and balalnced? I'm not sure I'd agree...i've had Haldex do soe VERY strange things over the years...that mechanical Diffs can't/won't do.

As for the suspension...in the Mk4, comparing IRS to twist beam gave a huge gain...
In the Mk5 it did not...as the FWD Mk5s have IRS which transformed them.
In the Mk6...time will tell...but I honestly can't see there being a quantum leap.
 

And if you think both cars can take sweeping bends at the same speed, then I suggest looking at levels of g achievable in both cars. I have driven both cars and there is no way a GTI can live with a R32 through the twistys or even round round-abouts. See TG lap times for confirmation.

That's your view...
And as I said above, the R(32) has an advantage more often...but it's not clear cut...and many times I've had a FWD GTI stuck to my S3 that I couldn't shake off...in the same way I've out cornered many 4WD cars (TTs, S3s, R32s) in my FWD Golf.

You cannot make a blanket statement...there are too many variables.

4WD makes for a quicker car, more of the time.
But that's not a given.

[R32UK]

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree but imo the R32 is (and R will be) much quicker around a track where all variables are tested. i have yet to meet a std GTI, ST, Megane 225, Cupra that could keep up with me in my old car round a few simple round abouts.

For me its quite clear that simply looking at the stats the R will be a much faster than the GTI in any conditions despite the weight of AWD.

[Ess_Three]

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree but imo the R32 is (and R will be) much quicker around a track where all variables are tested. i have yet to meet a std GTI, ST, Megane 225, Cupra that could keep up with me in my old car round a few simple round abouts.

We'll leave it at that regarding the R32.
The Mk6 R could be the car the R should have been for the last 2 generations...time will tell.

For me its quite clear that simply looking at the stats the R will be a much faster than the GTI in any conditions despite the weight of AWD.

We'll see...
Faster?, yes.
Much faster?
Depends on your definition of 'much'.

In 6 months time there will be threads on here with R owners moaning and whinging that thay weren't able to leave a GTI behind...just you wait and see.
Added weight and much higher losses make a fair old difference.