What is my BHP likely to be for a Mk3 2.0 16v Gti M Reg

[Wayne]

Interesting thread. 

[AudiA8Quattro]

From certain people, with dyno plots...yes, I'd say so.

What are people getting out of vr's in comparison?

Yup, as I said, I built a 220+ engine, along with a mate...and have tuned a good few 2.8s and a couple of 2.9s...hence the figures for TBs and manifolds.

As i said, i've read about your work, and it is indeed impressive.

I'm not being rude...I'm being honest.
I personally don't care.
But people should not just believe the crap tuners tell them using hopless dyno figures to sell crap.

Fair point. Alot of tuning companies do talk crap.
You obviously are very knowledgeable, but you do sometimes appear arrogant, and that's not a nice trait.

I perhaps should have made myself clearer.
The engine is spot on...
The A to B gains come from gearing, handling and braking - along with the further £4000+.

Yes, i think you weren't very clear on it.

I'm not throwing insults...it's all there to be read...just some people don't bother reading before sprouting rubbish.

I did read everything you wrote, some of it wasn't clear, and generally i don't spout rubbish  

I'm also not great at spelling. I can live with that

That's just as well  

"As you suggest, the vr is cheaper to tune first stage, then more expensive for a second stage, but what about in total? which is cheaper?"

So which is cheaper?

[AudiA8Quattro]

Interesting thread. 

+1
Ess_Three is an interesting person to talk to.

[Paul86S2]

Interesting thread. 

Yes very interesting. I wish I had this information to hand before I started modifications to my track car, could have saved a few quid and a bit of wasted time.
Ess-threes info appears to be pretty much spot on and gained from personal experience and much trial and error.
I know when I followed his advice on suspension and geometry set up it made a huge differance in handling.
I just wish I could justify the expense to get mine to 200 bhp plus.
Winter mods will be to fit the polished and ported head, match port the manifolds, and fit the lightened and balanced flywheel.
Still cant work out which cams to fit yet - too much conflicting information at the moment.

Paul

[DazVR6]

I would have to disagree about getting a vr6 to 210bhp being more expensive than getting a 16v to a similar power, i would estimate that to get my old vr to that figure i'd have needed cams-£400, remap-£250 and maybe a second hand shrick manifold-£1000.

Now if i was to spend £3000 it could be running 260-280 after being charged.

To get a valver anywhere past 200bhp it would need to be turbo'd/charged and that would be alot more than the equivillant money spent on a vr.

What I said was:

So true...a 190+ BHP ABF will cost significantly more than a 190+ BHP AAA or ABV....and have less torque.

A point to note:
Getting a VR6 to 210+ BHP from 190+ BHP is very expensive.
Getting a 16v to 210ish BHP from 190+ BHP is less so, assuming you have gone the 'normal' route to 190BHP.

So getting your VR6 to 190ish is cheaper than getting a 16v to the same figure.
But, assuming you already have the cams changed in order to get your 16v to make 190+ BHP (which you will, along with headwork, if you want proper, genuine figures not dyno bullsh!t) then getting the next 20ish from the 16v is cheaper than getting 20ish BHP from a VR6 sitting at 190 BHP.

16v from 190ish BHP to 210 = ITBs and suitable ECU (MS is cheap and will do...Bike TBs can be used...so from £500 to £1500.
VR6 from 190ish BHP to 210 = Cams, headwork, Schrick manifold (doesn't add much power, but lots of torque)? Re-worked TB and a re-map. £2500-£3000.
Assuming you stay NA on them both.

Of course you can Supercharge/turbocharge...but that gets expensive if you do it properly...not just dodge it.

To get a valver anywhere past 200bhp it would need to be turbo'd/charged and that would be alot more than the equivillant money spent on a vr.

Nonesense.
I'm at 196ish with an unconventional cam set-up.
I can vreak 200 with 268/258 but it won't pass the MOT emissions test....so I don't run it.
I even run a Cat.
So, 200 BHP before ITBs, on a standard compression bottom end...215-220 on ITBs when mapped correctly.
Go for high compression pistons and you are up around 230 BHP and add a steel crank and 8000+ rev limit and you are up over 240 BHP.
All NA...

It'll be more expensive than going FI for sure...but it can be done.
Several 16vs over on Club GTI are running 230+ BHP reliably...

I get what you were saying..... and what i was sayiing was that it wouldn't be that expensive to get from 190-210+.

You say that to get over 200bhp you could go with ITB's and m-squirt and that would cost £1000-1500, well if i had spent the same amount on my 190bhp vr then im sure i could have broken the 210bhp barrier. Will never get the chance now to find out thoughsince i no longer have my vr.

Got another question for you though Ess three, since doing all that work on your valver have you ever had it up against a civic type r..? love the idea of an ABF showing a v-tec a clean pair of heels!

[Adam]

There is ALOT of good information in this thread!

[Ess_Three]

As i said, i've read about your work, and it is indeed impressive.

I'm genuinely pleased someone finds it useful. I don't tune to impress anyone, merely as I enjoy it...and I don't make any money out of it...so occasionally I may get a tad heated around some bullsh!t product that claims to give 'x' and does nothing of the sort.
I'f I could stop somebody wasting money believing some of the crap I did years ago,...I'd be happy.

Fair point. Alot of tuning companies do talk crap.
You obviously are very knowledgeable, but you do sometimes appear arrogant, and that's not a nice trait.

I don't mean to.
I'm used to just telling it as I see it...and having to quickly type replies whilst 'pretending' to be working, doesn't help!
I'm not going to wrap people up in cotton wool...or massage their egos...which some of the more fragile may see as arrogant. I don't mean to be. Just the way I am, and too long in the tooth now to change. Sorry.

So which is cheaper?

It depends on where you want to go?
To 190 BHP with no other factors considered, the VR6.
At between 200 and 210, NA, the VR6 gets expensive...
Over 200  (say 215 BHP ish), NA, possibly the 16v...
But if you look at the 'tuning' as a whole package of fastest from A to B rather than pure pub-talk numbers, then you have to consider handling too...and a 210 BHP VR6 will cost more to get it to match a 210 BHP 16v cross country from A to B.

I genuinely don't think there is an A or B answer. Too many factors.

[Ess_Three]

I get what you were saying..... and what i was sayiing was that it wouldn't be that expensive to get from 190-210+.

I think it is though...on a 2.8 VR6, getting from the point you will be at with the basics, 2.9 TB/manifold, modified airbox & filter and re-chip (190+) to 210+ will involve cams and headwork at the very least.
Fitting cams - with gaskets, new lifters (preferably lightweight ones if you are revving higher), preferably lightweight retainers (Ti if possible), a light flywheel and ahead capable of actually flowing the air the cams can give you...will cost.
Hell, you can spend £1500 on the head alone.

You know that a VR6 (AAA or ABV) has the same size TB butterfly as an ABF right?
So on a VR6, you are trying to feed a 2.8 engine with a TB that's holding a 2.0 back at 200ish BHP...so how's it going to fare on a 2.8/2.9?

You need to start paying close attention to getting air into a VR6 at over 200 BHP...and the standard cams/head don't cut it, if you stick NA.

Go FI, and you don't have the same concerns...but do get new ones around heat and keeping the head gasket sealing.

You say that to get over 200bhp you could go with ITB's and m-squirt and that would cost £1000-1500, well if i had spent the same amount on my 190bhp vr then im sure i could have broken the 210bhp barrier. Will never get the chance now to find out thoughsince i no longer have my vr.

You could...if you bought a new set of Jenveys, and a pre-built MS.
Or you can build the MS yourself for £100, make a plug and play loom with an old ECU and some wire (say £50) and fit bike ITBs on a custom manifold for £200-300.
Around £500 fitted and running, plus Dyno time to map it all up.

Got another question for you though Ess three, since doing all that work on your valver have you ever had it up against a civic type r..? love the idea of an ABF showing a v-tec a clean pair of heels!

I can give them a fright, depending on the shape of CTR.
The Mk3 isn't light...then again, neither is the CTR...and they are low-ish geared too.
I can't say if i'd be quicker or not in all cases...as I've bot paid too much attention.

How does a CTR do against a Mk1 S3/TT?
I can pull away from then...out accelerate, out-handle and out-brake them (standard).

So many factors to consider though...driver skill being the biggest.

At a guess, A JDM EK9 type, no chance.
The van looking things that came later, hold it's own.
The current heavier ones, probably keep them behind.
Although much will be down to my gearing being lower.

[Wayne]

01 to 06 Civic Type R is 1204kg and 197bhp, later car is 1267kg and 198bhp.

Parkers say the Golf mk3 16v is 1090kg, could be interesting then.

[Ess_Three]

01 to 06 Civic Type R is 1204kg and 197bhp, later car is 1267kg and 198bhp.

Parkers say the Golf mk3 16v is 1090kg, could be interesting then.

I'm sure my 5 door 16v is over well over 1100KG...1180Kg rings a bell.
With Mk4 Recaros and other weighty added (heavy ARBs, bigger brakes, strut braces, etc, etc) easily around 1200Kg.

Assuming that's close...then similar power to weight as the CTR.
They rev higher, but have a tad less torque.
It will come down to gearing, grip and the size of the driver's conkers, I suspect.