What is my BHP likely to be for a Mk3 2.0 16v Gti M Reg

[Ess_Three]

I would have to disagree about getting a vr6 to 210bhp being more expensive than getting a 16v to a similar power, i would estimate that to get my old vr to that figure i'd have needed cams-£400, remap-£250 and maybe a second hand shrick manifold-£1000.

Now if i was to spend £3000 it could be running 260-280 after being charged.

To get a valver anywhere past 200bhp it would need to be turbo'd/charged and that would be alot more than the equivillant money spent on a vr.

What I said was:

So true...a 190+ BHP ABF will cost significantly more than a 190+ BHP AAA or ABV....and have less torque.

A point to note:
Getting a VR6 to 210+ BHP from 190+ BHP is very expensive.
Getting a 16v to 210ish BHP from 190+ BHP is less so, assuming you have gone the 'normal' route to 190BHP.

So getting your VR6 to 190ish is cheaper than getting a 16v to the same figure.
But, assuming you already have the cams changed in order to get your 16v to make 190+ BHP (which you will, along with headwork, if you want proper, genuine figures not dyno bullsh!t) then getting the next 20ish from the 16v is cheaper than getting 20ish BHP from a VR6 sitting at 190 BHP.

16v from 190ish BHP to 210 = ITBs and suitable ECU (MS is cheap and will do...Bike TBs can be used...so from £500 to £1500.
VR6 from 190ish BHP to 210 = Cams, headwork, Schrick manifold (doesn't add much power, but lots of torque)? Re-worked TB and a re-map. £2500-£3000.
Assuming you stay NA on them both.

Of course you can Supercharge/turbocharge...but that gets expensive if you do it properly...not just dodge it.

To get a valver anywhere past 200bhp it would need to be turbo'd/charged and that would be alot more than the equivillant money spent on a vr.

Nonesense.
I'm at 196ish with an unconventional cam set-up.
I can vreak 200 with 268/258 but it won't pass the MOT emissions test....so I don't run it.
I even run a Cat.
So, 200 BHP before ITBs, on a standard compression bottom end...215-220 on ITBs when mapped correctly.
Go for high compression pistons and you are up around 230 BHP and add a steel crank and 8000+ rev limit and you are up over 240 BHP.
All NA...

It'll be more expensive than going FI for sure...but it can be done.
Several 16vs over on Club GTI are running 230+ BHP reliably...

[Ess_Three]

Agree with the above.
The only way you'll get a 16v over 200bhp is with forced induction.

Is this internet expertism, or actual testing?
Mine makes 196 BHP on 268in/std ex cams...
Go 268/268 and I break 200 BHP...but it doesn't idle well due to the 16v plenum. This has been proved on re-mapped Digifant 3.2 and Megasquirt...and I have the experience and dyno charts to show for it.
Go ITBs and it will...and make more...say 210-215 BHP.

Also another point to ess_three, changing the exhaust on my old golf more than likely made a difference.

More than likely?
Did you dyno before and after?
I did....on a 16v making 190+ BHP and the std exhaust vs Milltek vs Supersprint added...NOTHING.
not a single BHP...the standard exhaust is just fine for under 200 BHP.
All this 'performance exhaust' crap is just that...you don't get a gain.

The standard golf system isn't very good, i would say the jetex system was definately more free flowing, more like the corrado system i would say.

You would say.
Or you can prove?
As I say, I went std, to Milltek to the alleged best flowing - Supersprint - and found nothing.

If a gain was there to be found, I'd have picked up something...no matter how little.

Interestingly, some Club GTI members have found a Jetex 2.5" system adds no power, but looses torque over their 2.25" system...

[AudiA8Quattro]

Is this internet expertism, or actual testing?

Internet expert here mate 

More than likely?
Did you dyno before and after?
I did....on a 16v making 190+ BHP and the std exhaust vs Milltek vs Supersprint added...NOTHING.
not a single BHP...the standard exhaust is just fine for under 200 BHP.
All this 'performance exhaust' crap is just that...you don't get a gain.

The car certainly felt more responsive after fitting, but no figures to back it up.

You would say.
Or you can prove?
As I say, I went std, to Milltek to the alleged best flowing - Supersprint - and found nothing.

If a gain was there to be found, I'd have picked up something...no matter how little.

Interestingly, some Club GTI members have found a Jetex 2.5" system adds no power, but looses torque over their 2.25" system...

Like i said, just going on how the car felt to drive.

Mine makes 196 BHP on 268in/std ex cams...
Go 268/268 and I break 200 BHP...but it doesn't idle well due to the 16v plenum. This has been proved on re-mapped Digifant 3.2 and Megasquirt...and I have the experience and dyno charts to show for it.
Go ITBs and it will...and make more...say 210-215 BHP.

You do spout alot of figures 
But as for getting your car over 200bhp, i say 'prove it' 

[AudiA8Quattro]

Several 16vs over on Club GTI are running 230+ BHP reliably...

Is that actually proven? or internet experts at work again? 

[AudiA8Quattro]

So getting your VR6 to 190ish is cheaper than getting a 16v to the same figure.
But, assuming you already have the cams changed in order to get your 16v to make 190+ BHP (which you will, along with headwork, if you want proper, genuine figures not dyno bullsh!t) then getting the next 20ish from the 16v is cheaper than getting 20ish BHP from a VR6 sitting at 190 BHP.

16v from 190ish BHP to 210 = ITBs and suitable ECU (MS is cheap and will do...Bike TBs can be used...so from £500 to £1500.
VR6 from 190ish BHP to 210 = Cams, headwork, Schrick manifold (doesn't add much power, but lots of torque)? Re-worked TB and a re-map. £2500-£3000.
Assuming you stay NA on them both.

Even if the figures you quote are correct (any proof  ) about tuning both engines from 190bhp, and the vr is more expensive to tune, you already stated that you spent £7000+ getting your car to 190bhp.
So surely if you wanted 200bhp+ out of either engine, and were starting from standard setup, then the vr would actually be cheaper to tune?

[Ess_Three]

Several 16vs over on Club GTI are running 230+ BHP reliably...

Is that actually proven? or internet experts at work again? 

Go and ask them.

[Ess_Three]

You do spout alot of figures 
But as for getting your car over 200bhp, i say 'prove it' 

I have. And no wink needed.
Mine makes 200 BHP with the pair of Schrick 268 cams fitted...but is miserably bad at idle due to the pulsing in the plenumn upsetting the MAP sensor in the ECU.
I have dyno's it on two different dynos, with two different ECUs attempting to find and cure the problem...hence how I know it's the manifold causing the problem.
Do away with the manifold (ITBs) and you can run 200 BHP AND pass the MOT.Plus whatever gain you can get my running bigger injectors and getting more air in...

As I say, I have the dyno plots...which is proof, is it not?
196 BHP with 268/std cams...and a gain of 5 ish BHP from running the 268 ex cam (but sadly a drop of around 10 lb-ft of torque pretty much everywhere due to not having the intercam verniers fitted)...so 200-201 BHP with 268/268.

The sprouting of figures comes from experience (70+ dyno plots and counting) not from believing bullsh!t on the interweb.

Personally, I couldn't give a toss what you believe...if you want to believe that you can magically gain 20-30 BHP easily, then go for it.
Just be prepared to be dissapointed if you ever actually try.

[Ess_Three]

Even if the figures you quote are correct (any proof  ) about tuning both engines from 190bhp, and the vr is more expensive to tune, you already stated that you spent £7000+ getting your car to 190bhp.
So surely if you wanted 200bhp+ out of either engine, and were starting from standard setup, then the vr would actually be cheaper to tune?

Can you read?
I said around £3000. Do it again now, once you filter out all the bullsh!t parts that so called internet axperts told me would add power, and didn't...you could do it cheaper.
It's easy once you know what to buy. Hard (and expensive) when you start from scratch.

Of course a VR would be cheaper to get to 200 BHP.
I didn't say it wasn't.

I said once you start aiming for 210+ the VR6 gets horribly expensive, and on the 16v, to go from 190ish to 210ish is relatively easy, as you have already done much of the groundwork getting to a genuine 190.

[AudiA8Quattro]

Go and ask them.

Is that proof then? 

The sprouting of figures comes from experience (70+ dyno plots and counting) not from believing bullsh!t on the interweb.

I don't doubt that, i've read up on your work on clubgti. It is infact extremely interesting. However you do also spout alot of figures about vr's, have you personally done lots of dyno's on them too?

Personally, I couldn't give a toss what you believe

There's no need to be rude. I was trying to be nice 

Can you read?I said around £3000

Actually, yes i can. You said quote "around £3000 to get to the headline figures...another  £4000 making it capable of using it every day and handle properly. Probably more if I really did into it. It's hard to put a price on custom made parts.".
Now to me that suggests that you spent the extra not just on handling, but to get it running 'right'. Maybe i just read it the wrong way.
If you want to throw insults, then i suggest you also go and learn how to spell properly 

Of course a VR would be cheaper to get to 200 BHP.
I didn't say it wasn't.

I said once you start aiming for 210+ the VR6 gets horribly expensive, and on the 16v, to go from 190ish to 210ish is relatively easy, as you have already done much of the groundwork getting to a genuine 190.

Go and re-read what i posted.
I was suggesting that from the stock, the vr would be cheaper to tune overall.
As you suggest, the vr is cheaper to tune first stage, then more expensive for a second stage, but what about in total? which is cheaper?

[Ess_Three]

Is that proof then? 

From certain people, with dyno plots...yes, I'd say so.

I don't doubt that, i've read up on your work on clubgti. It is infact extremely interesting. However you do also spout alot of figures about vr's, have you personally done lots of dyno's on them too?

Yup, as I said, I built a 220+ engine, along with a mate...and have tuned a good few 2.8s and a couple of 2.9s...hence the figures for TBs and manifolds.

There's no need to be rude. I was trying to be nice 

I'm not being rude...I'm being honest.
I personally don't care.
But people should not just believe the crap tuners tell them using hopless dyno figures to sell crap.

Actually, yes i can. You said quote "around £3000 to get to the headline figures...another  £4000 making it capable of using it every day and handle properly. Probably more if I really did into it. It's hard to put a price on custom made parts.".
Now to me that suggests that you spent the extra not just on handling, but to get it running 'right'.  Maybe i just read it the wrong way.

I perhaps should have made myself clearer.
The engine is spot on...
The A to B gains come from gearing, handling and braking - along with the further £4000+.

If you want to throw insults, then i suggest you also go and learn how to spell properly 

I'm not throwing insults...it's all there to be read...just some people don't bother reading before sprouting rubbish.
I'm also not great at spelling. I can live with that.