Author Topic: To court, or not to court - that is the question!  (Read 14358 times)

Offline Merlinman

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Re: To court, or not to court - that is the question!
« Reply #10 on: 23 January 2009, 09:30 »
Were any of your statements to the officer made under caution?

If not they're inadmissible as evidence....

Get some advice - 3 points is 3 points  :angry:

Offline Rollini

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Re: To court, or not to court - that is the question!
« Reply #11 on: 23 January 2009, 09:52 »
If you say it was amber when you were approaching then there is definitley a chance it was red when you actually went through?
if you are 100% sure it DEFINITLEY wasn't red then sure pursue it but even if you just caught the red then i doubt a court will be leaniant for wasting its time and will no doubt mention that amber is a warning to stop and not a signal to floor it to make it through the light  :evil:

How long do you think it would take to get resolved in court anway? and at what cost?

Not something i would risk if i wasn't 100% sure - just my opinion and not judging as everyone does it, its called an amber gamble and maybe you lost this time?  :wink:

« Last Edit: 23 January 2009, 09:56 by Rollini »

Offline SO8

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Re: To court, or not to court - that is the question!
« Reply #12 on: 23 January 2009, 10:38 »
He doesn't need someone else in the car to report a driver for a red light and he doesn't need to show you the video.  Some counties have a policy of showing it and some have a policy not to show it. Speeding is the usual offence where you need someone or something else to corroborate the opinion of the first officer in order to get a conviction.

Also, have a look in the Highway Code for what an amber light means ... then think about if say the road was a 30mph road and you were doing 30mph how far you travel each second at that speed .... 13.4m. Factor in that each amber phase is normally 3 seconds.  You would be 40m away from the stop line, if doing 30mph when the lights change to amber.  23m is the stopping distance in the Highway Code for 30mph (based on old tests) so if dong 30mph you should be able to stop without issues.

I am not suggesting you were speeding - you just need to be aware that if the lights were working correctly you can stitch yourself up by saying you were too close to stop, etc.

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: To court, or not to court - that is the question!
« Reply #13 on: 27 January 2009, 16:52 »

<snipage>

I asked him how late I had jumped the light and he said "ridiculously", so I asked him to show me the video (which is what the police normally do to show you how bad your driving was) and he replied  "no, that only gets shown if you go to court".

This is very clear.

If you were clearly told at the roadside that there was evidence on video, and that you correctly asked to view the said video - but were declined, then the cop has clearly with-held evidence against you.  This is a clear and absolute breach of the "Police and Criminal Evidence Act" (aka PACE).  Any charges relating directly to this incident must, by law be discontinued.

IANAL, but I do have some relations who are cops and barristers.
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: To court, or not to court - that is the question!
« Reply #14 on: 27 January 2009, 17:11 »
He doesn't need someone else in the car to report a driver for a red light and he doesn't need to show you the video.

Erm, you are very wrong.  OK, the cop doesn't need a 2nd person to corroborate his own evidence, and nor does he need video evidence either.  However, because the cop did state that the alleged offence was recorded on video, and that that video offence would be used in any court proceedings, then to withhold, when formally requested (and a verbal/oral roadside request is classed as a formal request) ANY evidence is in clear breach of PACE, because it is deemed an obstical to natural justice.  So therefore, any legal proceedings where where refusal to supply evidence is rightfully claimed can be ordered to be thrown out by a Magistrate.

Some Cops really do need to appreciate that they are not above the law.

Also, have a look in the Highway Code for what an amber light means ... then think about if say the road was a 30mph road and you were doing 30mph how far you travel each second at that speed .... 13.4m. Factor in that each amber phase is normally 3 seconds.  You would be 40m away from the stop line, if doing 30mph when the lights change to amber.  23m is the stopping distance in the Highway Code for 30mph (based on old tests) so if dong 30mph you should be able to stop without issues.

I am not suggesting you were speeding - you just need to be aware that if the lights were working correctly you can stitch yourself up by saying you were too close to stop, etc.

I agree with the Highway Code meaning for an amber traffic signal.  Basically, amber means "STOP, only if it is safe to do so".  So whilst you are correct to advise caution about potentially stiching yourself up for speeding.  However, and this is a big HOWEVER - the "STOP, only if it is safe to do so" applies to all other road users who may be affected by your own actions.  For example, if a car was tailgating you, or a car was approaching from the rear and you had real and genuine concerns that you would get whacked up the rear, then to stop on amber would be clearly unsafe, and it would therefore be lawful to go through an amber light.  And this "safe/unsafe" dilemma is NOT formed by other road users - it has to be formed by the driver of the car in question.

Finally, all these traffic signal offences are ONLY valid for when the car actually and physically crosses the Stop Line.  So in this instance, even if the video still proves you crossed the stop line during amber, but the lights changed to red before you had cleared the other side of the junction, then irrespective of all the above PACE advice, you can ask for the case to be dropped on the grounds that the cop is an unreliable witness (ie, the cop lied because he stated "crossed a red", when it was actually amber).

HTH
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Offline SO8

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Re: To court, or not to court - that is the question!
« Reply #15 on: 27 January 2009, 19:17 »
He doesn't need someone else in the car to report a driver for a red light and he doesn't need to show you the video.

Erm, you are very wrong.  OK, the cop doesn't need a 2nd person to corroborate his own evidence, and nor does he need video evidence either.  However, because the cop did state that the alleged offence was recorded on video, and that that video offence would be used in any court proceedings, then to withhold, when formally requested (and a verbal/oral roadside request is classed as a formal request) ANY evidence is in clear breach of PACE, because it is deemed an obstical to natural justice.  So therefore, any legal proceedings where where refusal to supply evidence is rightfully claimed can be ordered to be thrown out by a Magistrate.

Some Cops really do need to appreciate that they are not above the law.

Also, have a look in the Highway Code for what an amber light means ... then think about if say the road was a 30mph road and you were doing 30mph how far you travel each second at that speed .... 13.4m. Factor in that each amber phase is normally 3 seconds.  You would be 40m away from the stop line, if doing 30mph when the lights change to amber.  23m is the stopping distance in the Highway Code for 30mph (based on old tests) so if dong 30mph you should be able to stop without issues.

I am not suggesting you were speeding - you just need to be aware that if the lights were working correctly you can stitch yourself up by saying you were too close to stop, etc.

I agree with the Highway Code meaning for an amber traffic signal.  Basically, amber means "STOP, only if it is safe to do so".  So whilst you are correct to advise caution about potentially stiching yourself up for speeding.  However, and this is a big HOWEVER - the "STOP, only if it is safe to do so" applies to all other road users who may be affected by your own actions.  For example, if a car was tailgating you, or a car was approaching from the rear and you had real and genuine concerns that you would get whacked up the rear, then to stop on amber would be clearly unsafe, and it would therefore be lawful to go through an amber light.  And this "safe/unsafe" dilemma is NOT formed by other road users - it has to be formed by the driver of the car in question.

Finally, all these traffic signal offences are ONLY valid for when the car actually and physically crosses the Stop Line.  So in this instance, even if the video still proves you crossed the stop line during amber, but the lights changed to red before you had cleared the other side of the junction, then irrespective of all the above PACE advice, you can ask for the case to be dropped on the grounds that the cop is an unreliable witness (ie, the cop lied because he stated "crossed a red", when it was actually amber).

HTH

If you think I am wrong about the video being shown then fine.  I am not going to get into an argument about evidence and the rules of disclosure for  motoring matters.  The driver needs to get legal advice if they feel that something is wrong and go 'not guilty'.

FWIW I do have quite a bit of knowledge in this area .... over 18 years worth.  I am more than happy what I say is correct in relation to a stop at the roadside for viewing a video - after that yes it can be different ......

As for the amber light - yes, we can speculate about different circumstances but I am not going to as they weren't mentioned in the original post.

Offline Harbornite

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Re: To court, or not to court - that is the question!
« Reply #16 on: 27 January 2009, 22:26 »
He doesn't need someone else in the car to report a driver for a red light and he doesn't need to show you the video.

Erm, you are very wrong.  OK, the cop doesn't need a 2nd person to corroborate his own evidence, and nor does he need video evidence either.  However, because the cop did state that the alleged offence was recorded on video, and that that video offence would be used in any court proceedings, then to withhold, when formally requested (and a verbal/oral roadside request is classed as a formal request) ANY evidence is in clear breach of PACE, because it is deemed an obstical to natural justice.  So therefore, any legal proceedings where where refusal to supply evidence is rightfully claimed can be ordered to be thrown out by a Magistrate.

Some Cops really do need to appreciate that they are not above the law.

Also, have a look in the Highway Code for what an amber light means ... then think about if say the road was a 30mph road and you were doing 30mph how far you travel each second at that speed .... 13.4m. Factor in that each amber phase is normally 3 seconds.  You would be 40m away from the stop line, if doing 30mph when the lights change to amber.  23m is the stopping distance in the Highway Code for 30mph (based on old tests) so if dong 30mph you should be able to stop without issues.

I am not suggesting you were speeding - you just need to be aware that if the lights were working correctly you can stitch yourself up by saying you were too close to stop, etc.

I agree with the Highway Code meaning for an amber traffic signal.  Basically, amber means "STOP, only if it is safe to do so".  So whilst you are correct to advise caution about potentially stiching yourself up for speeding.  However, and this is a big HOWEVER - the "STOP, only if it is safe to do so" applies to all other road users who may be affected by your own actions.  For example, if a car was tailgating you, or a car was approaching from the rear and you had real and genuine concerns that you would get whacked up the rear, then to stop on amber would be clearly unsafe, and it would therefore be lawful to go through an amber light.  And this "safe/unsafe" dilemma is NOT formed by other road users - it has to be formed by the driver of the car in question.

Finally, all these traffic signal offences are ONLY valid for when the car actually and physically crosses the Stop Line.  So in this instance, even if the video still proves you crossed the stop line during amber, but the lights changed to red before you had cleared the other side of the junction, then irrespective of all the above PACE advice, you can ask for the case to be dropped on the grounds that the cop is an unreliable witness (ie, the cop lied because he stated "crossed a red", when it was actually amber).

HTH

Think you are a little wide of the mark here HTH, SO8 has provided a more realistic & accurate opinion.

Should the OP wish to take the matter further, dispute the ticket with Court proceedings to follow, then the Police have a duty to disclose the video to the defence pre-trail.

 

Offline RedRobin

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Re: To court, or not to court - that is the question!
« Reply #17 on: 28 January 2009, 01:58 »
....

Welcome to the forum, Harbornite :afro:

Just for your information, "HTH" is the abbreviation for Hope This Helps :laugh:
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Offline joesgti

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Re: To court, or not to court - that is the question!
« Reply #18 on: 28 January 2009, 09:23 »
....

Welcome to the forum, Harbornite :afro:

Just for your information, "HTH" is the abbreviation for Hope This Helps :laugh:

 :laugh: :laugh:


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Re: To court, or not to court - that is the question!
« Reply #19 on: 28 January 2009, 09:32 »
....

Welcome to the forum, Harbornite :afro:

Just for your information, "HTH" is the abbreviation for Hope This Helps :laugh:

 :laugh: :laugh:

I very nearly posted this up too! But couldn't really be arsed!