GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: RO83 on 18 November 2008, 17:28
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im sorry if this topic been asked before but aint found it on search
i goin to be changing the pb engine for ether abf or vr6
i would like to no more about the differance between the abf and vr6 for a mark 2 golf obviously i no 1 a 4 cylinder and 1 a 6 and that 1 is 12v and other is 16v etc but would like to no which is the quicker of the two and wat peoples opinions are on each ive heard mixed opinions from people ive asked before
any info would be good so come on people express ur opinions
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Vr6 sounds the biz and if you have bottomless pockets can be super/turbo charged.
ABF can produce the same power as a standard VR for less money and it isn't a load of extra weight slung over your front wheels.
Nick
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A quality ABF conversion would eat a VR6 alive in any situation other than a drag strip. Toooo much weight and costs loads more to install and run.
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mines eaten vr6's :grin:
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ahhh so your the guy to pick on for an ABF conversion :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Yeah but he only does Syncros :tongue:
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never mind , every one has a down side :grin: :grin: :tongue:
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But the VR still has the awesome sound track to it :cool:
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Vr6 anytime.
Small mods like a filter, exhaust and remap will easily see 190bhp+
It would take alot of work to get an ABF to that power.
Just need some extra suspension work to deal with the extra weight :grin:
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Vr6 anytime.
Small mods like a filter, exhaust and remap will easily see 190bhp+
It would take alot of work to get an ABF to that power.
Just need some extra suspension work to deal with the extra weight :grin:
I'm no expert, but an ABF in a Mk2 with a decent manifold, decatted, and better air intake will easily get around 170bhp, maybe more. I bet a VR6 weighs at least 50% more than an ABF. So... No contest, unless you seriously mod the VR6, and then surely driveability would be compromised with all that power going through the front wheels of a Mk2 chassis??
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dudes from mk2vr6 with their before and after weigh in (weight watcher style) suggest that that the vr engine was "only" 40kg more heavier than the 16v setup... :rolleyes:
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my ABF presented 173 with only home made tubular exhaust manifold and no cat. looking for 185 now with a few adjustments
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ive heard that the seat abf lump is runnin 170 if put in mk2 because car is lighter and so is the engine because of lighter internals dont no how true that is but if that the case then is hould think 190 bhp is easily done
people that have don the conversion wat is the 0-60 times???
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A few years back the golf mag were rolling road testing obdII vr6's, all of them came out about 190bhp with no mods.
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A few years back the golf mag were rolling road testing obdII vr6's, all of them came out about 190bhp with no mods.
Yeah this is mythical rubbish I'm yet to see any concrete proof of a side by side comparison of the 2 VR engines onthe same day on the same rollers. It's the same old sh!te we got with edition 30 owners claiming they were actually putting out 250+ bhp. The 2.9 VR in the Rado is 190bhp though.
Nick
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i dont like how the vr6 is positioned in the mk2, its too far forward!
cant beat a supercharged vr6 though for raw straight line speed
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You can dial out some of the handling probs in a VR by lowering the motor and moving it back. This reduces torque steer and helps with the weight distribution as does wiring the battery into the boot. Unfortunately this requires custom a subframe and custom mounts (and one hell of a sump guard!)£££££££££££££££
If you can get a decent Corrado motor, then do it. Otherwise stick to ABF.
Mine coped easily with 200 through the front wheels. (Don't forget the brakes though!!!!!! 320mm should do :laugh:)
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ive heard that the seat abf lump is runnin 170 if put in mk2 because car is lighter
:huh:
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ive heard that the seat abf lump is runnin 170 if put in mk2 because car is lighter
:huh:
You want to put the back seats down as well that'll lose you a few kilos.
Nick
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Hmmm, Standard ish I'd probs go for the ABF. However mate has just had a VR built:
2.9vr
Lightned fly
Knife edge crank
pistons
cam
headwork
custom manifold, miltek pipe.
rev limit raised
plus box rebuild with diff.
not been on a RR yet, but should be fun! Sounds Immense, and charger to come later.
:drool:
Depends what you like I guess.
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^^^^^^^^^^
Sounds yummy!
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A few years back the golf mag were rolling road testing obdII vr6's, all of them came out about 190bhp with no mods.
Yeah this is mythical rubbish I'm yet to see any concrete proof of a side by side comparison of the 2 VR engines onthe same day on the same rollers. It's the same old sh!te we got with edition 30 owners claiming they were actually putting out 250+ bhp. The 2.9 VR in the Rado is 190bhp though.
Nick
I can't answer whether it is a myth or not Nick, as i'm only going on what i read in a magazine.
All i will say is i borrowed a really good mk3 16v a couple of years back, it used to be owned by a former forum member, it was rolling roaded at 150bhp, and it wasn't a touch on the vr i used to own.
Although it was still an excellent car.
Unfortunately its so long ago, i haven't got the magazine. It was only OBDII vr's that were achieving those figures. Interesting that the corrado lump is only slighty bigger than the golf one, the golf being 2792 and the corrado being 2861. I'm not sure why the corrado makes so much more power, can anyone answer that?
I'm also very sceptical that an ABF even with a remap will get near a vr6. I've heard the 'detuned' theory before, but i've never seen any proof myself.
I'm not sure why 16v owners always knock vr6's, can anyone answer that? :rolleyes:
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Corrado VR has a different inlet manifold I think, this plus the extra CC's help boost the power.
Nick
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The difference in cc is only about 61, i wouldn't of thought that and an inlet manifold would give an extra 16bhp.
Maybe its got better cams and a more free flowing exhaust.
Either way the vr6 is a better engine than a 16v, well in my opinion anyway :grin:
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ideal some good points of view there, but wat about differences between insurance fuel consumption tax etc
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mines eaten vr6's :grin:
so wat exactly are u runnin to eat the vr
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mines eaten vr6's :grin:
so wat exactly are u runnin to eat the vr
striped out mk2 syncro with then a stanadard ABF bar exhaust. in straight line the vr was quite close, down the b roads and lanes it was left for dead.
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ABF: easy and reliable 170bhp from 2.0 litres: 86.5bhp per litre
VR6 180bhp from 2.8 litres: 64bhp per litre
If it was 'as good' as an ABF it'd deliver +240bhp
So where's the missing 50-60bhp, eh?
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Who cares? I prefer V8's nowadays :laugh:
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ABF: easy and reliable 170bhp from 2.0 litres: 86.5bhp per litre
VR6 180bhp from 2.8 litres: 64bhp per litre
If it was 'as good' as an ABF it'd deliver +240bhp
So where's the missing 50-60bhp, eh?
Just out of interest, how do you cheaply add 20bhp to an NA engine?
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Tubular exhaust manifold.
It wanted to give 170bhp anyway.
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So where's the missing 50-60bhp, eh?
VW forgot the 12 other valves :smiley: :evil:
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is it possible to get 200bhp out of the abf without to much effort
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i think 200 bhp should be possible without to much effort. these engine in all form give about 240 - 250.
i'm aiming for 200 but will be useng ITB's but controlled by std ecu
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that wat i was thinking they look lush and tidy up a bay nicely wat gains do u get or expect from that setup??? bet they wil sound nice to
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the abf looks tidyer in the bay than the other 16v's as there is no metering head and crap :)
i'm going to get at least 200 or i'll be pissed off. 200 is possible from std cams and manifold with headwork, manifold and good mapping and if the rest of the enigne is perfect but it is a bit of an ask, with the itb's instead of std manifold i'll loose a bit of bottom end but will make top end gains easyer 200 is the first target
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how old is your car with the ABF in it ??
was it a fairly staight forward conversion ??
i know i'm bothering someone elses topic but i am really searching for a seat ibiza GTi now :)
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It's an 89 Golf Syncro.
It wasn't the *easiest* conversion, but the results are great.
Most of the 'hard' bits were to do with it being a Syncro, but that's what makes it so good.
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Next year i will be swapping the kr lump to abf, the deciding factor for me was cost. As i cant do the conversion myself im gna be looking at getting someone else to do it, meaning...saving literaly £1000's. Had a few quotes abf is somehwere around the £1500-2k mark and vr is about £3.5 For that kind of money though i'd save up an extra year and 1.8turb it!!! :cool:
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for 3.5 k id build a 1Z based abf hydrid 16vt . or a 2.0 tfsi
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@ lowmk1. who has quoted you 2.k for an abf conversion? surely on your kr engine its just a change of block and head, and using your existing kjet injection. plug and play!
the price of the block and head. £400 max
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@ lowmk1. who has quoted you 2.k for an abf conversion? surely on your kr engine its just a change of block and head, and using your existing kjet injection. plug and play!
the price of the block and head. £400 max
Its totally different injection and needs all the loom, lambda sensor and air flow metering sorting out. Not a big job, but definitely not a £400 job either.
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@ lowmk1. who has quoted you 2.k for an abf conversion? surely on your kr engine its just a change of block and head, and using your existing kjet injection. plug and play!
the price of the block and head. £400 max
never going to get it done for that price if you want the conversion done right. also the k jet should be ripped off and sold to someone else. it is one of the advantages of the ABF and k jet is just hasstel
the complete ABF itself or donor car £250 - £500.
prepareing enigne to fit.
new clutch £60 - £100
new cambelt kit £60
new HT leads £45
new plugs £10
new dizzy cap £5
new oil filter £2.50
new acsessory belt £8
new exhaust studs £8
new exhaust nuts £2
new exhaust gaskets £4
likely new cranckshaft position sensor £50
( also on cheep engine's on the engine or it's history potentialy headgasket, tappets & valve guides may be required )
prepareing car for enigne.
replace engine mounts. £70
new radiator £50
£50 for oil, antifreeze and the odd clip and stuff
thats £450 based on those tough prices, say you get a good deal on a donor car £700 + time to do it properly yourself.
for eaxmple if i was doing ABF conversion for someone else that lot and anything else looking sub optimal would get changed. i've had enough muppets wave engines at me askign to fit them as they are. and a few times i was daft enough to fit them and it just ain't worth it.
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agreed abf with abf managmnet is literally fit & forget, if you do it right in the 1st place replacing bits that should be replaced. To that list I would add new ECU relay, coolant temp sensor and vacuum lines, probably lambda probe as well. Main stumbling block with the abf managment is the lambda, shouldnt cost too much to get a boss welded in, even if zaust is on the car my mate got his done by the phirm about a week after.
That plus the immobilisor if its post 95, but if you get the matching key, ecu, transponder box & ring from the donor then you should be ok. My mates key wasnt coded to the key for some reason, so he had to get it transported to VW to have another key cut & coded. Didnt cost that much either, but some dealers may not be so willing to do it on an engine conversion ideally we needed the V5 from the donor car to proove we didnt steal it :grin:
k-jet on the other hand is cheap and easy, but it takes a lot more messing about to get it running right good replacement parts are getting hard to find, and new parts are expensive compared to most ABF bits that are likely to go wrong. Plus if you want em tuned they're starting to get a bit long in the tooth so finding guys who know how to tweak em right isnt so easy, that and if you wanna go big power its much easier to do it with abf managmnet.
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I got those prices quoted off various companys, but you never know really if they are gonna go to the trouble of replacing all the various componants like danny has stated....
...danny will you fit the abf for me pleease... :kiss: :grin:
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...danny will you fit the abf for me pleease... :kiss: :grin:
If you do it yourself you'll know so much about your car that you'll never need to use a mechanic again. Think about having a go!
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Agreed there Dave, for the amount of money you will spend on a mechanic to do it for you, you can rent a garage and buy all the tools you'll ever need and have cash spare! :wink:
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is it possible to get 200bhp out of the abf without to much effort
One of my old ABF lumps (now sitting in storage awaiting re-shelling) managed to put down 208.8 at the flywheel and that was still N/A. My current one (in the car) will be 260ish when I have the supercharger fitted along with a few other little tricks but is pushing 188 at present.
208.8 was achieved with quite a few mods but ultimately only cost me £400 to get it there and a lot of my time! For me it is definately a case of having the workshop skill & access to the right places and people :wink:
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but you can run it on the k-jet if wished. and never mentioned running digi 3 in the original post. believe toyotec saw good figures on that combo.
im still looking into it on mine. but as said, to do properly, and properly prep an unknown engine costs. as i found out on my 2.0 conversion!
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Right, I just got back from driving a mk2 with a vr6 installed by TSR...
Spec is below:
2.9 VR6 rebuilt by TSR
Gas flowed and polished throttle body and inlet manifold
de-cat
Also the car had struts and eibach anti roll bars etc
Verdict:
Car was quite nippy but I was not overly impressed! :shocked:
The owner says it was a 200bhp motor but i reckon it was an inflated figure from TSR.
One thing that did surprise me was that the cars handling was not as bad as people make VR conversions to be (this one was on existing mk2 subframe, 4stud). Was quite responsive around the bends :smiley:
I can honestly say, I had a much better journey home in the valver as she hit 3.5 k on the rev meter :cool:
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i see that ToddyGTi said at the flywheel the 208bhp was made, what would that end up being at the wheels , coz after all that work i couldnt handle having less than 200bhp at the wheels , when its from the flywheel its just a joke it goes down so much by the time its recorded from the wheels ,
I'm planning of getting 200bhp at the wheels , weather than means a fully balanced bottom end or even aftermarket rod's/pistons, people might say oh well if ur spending all that do the 20v but that is stupid money for the engine and brakes and all that its such a big effort , i have a friend with VR built by TSR it got about 190bhp and i'm still yet to see a faster car to this day it was so fast and just took off , so i think 200bhp 16v should be crazy aftert his VR got that and when like that,
Joe
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I had a 9a conversion done years ago and that was a nice drive. I am steering to the VR root next purely for sound this time. I know a chap who is pretty handy with it. Turbo'd they are fooking fast. All preference and how far do you want to go? Money decides most of that...............
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I would be very sceptical about some of figures quoted in this thread.
A 16v won't produce big power without serious money. Save it and spend big on a vr :grin:
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I would be very sceptical about some of figures quoted in this thread.
A 16v won't produce big power without serious money. Save it and spend big on a vr :grin:
+1 as above, VR6 ftw.
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VR6 FTMFW.
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Vr6 and charge it.... and with the money you would have spent sprucing up the abf, buy decent supension and brakes etc. :smiley:
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this thread has decended into utter bollocks imo.
modifyed v's modifyed. isn't really a comparison cos no one said how modifyed.
a charged ABF will give a charged VR6 a serious run for it's money and when pushed i recon the 4 cyl would make the better numbers. the VR6 has som serious issues when it comes to turning it into a performance engine it was never meant to be a all out PERFORMANCE engine hence some massive compromises were made when it was desinged.
there were so meany compromises made to get it to fit in the hole in a crash test frendly way its just not funny. put a propper v6 in there or make an inline 5 fit
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Vr6 and charge it.... and with the money you would have spent sprucing up the abf, buy decent supension and brakes etc.
Yeah, cos I hear Kelloggs are giving away charger kits for the VR6 free with boxes of Frosties this week. :rolleyes:
Danny's ABF was ballistic. I'm looking forward to driving it on bodies next year, too.
The VR6s I've driven have been languid, but then they were in tugboats.
Freshening a VR6 for proper use will cos the same, if not more than freshening an ABF. The VR6 is going to have more torque but they like revs less than the ABF, so I know where I'm heading next year.
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At 2000rpm a VR6 is putting out more torque than a 2.0 16v at peak.
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A wise man said to me only the other day.....
If you want lots of torque, go buy a diesel.
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A wise man said to me only the other day.....
If you want lots of torque, go buy a diesel.
Indeed true.
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A wise man said to me only the other day.....
If you want lots of torque, go buy a diesel.
Indeed true.
seeming more like the way forward as time goes by with the power and economy that diesels get these days