GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: dTEA on 30 September 2008, 20:45
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Alright all, my MOT is through and that means the old gal is gonna get taxed and tweaked. I reckon after a trip to Awesome they are gonna tell me to bin the 1.8 bottom end and start again, although i might be proved wrong as I know it needs a good tune anyway, but at the min she is running lumpy (part due to a top up of ordinary unleaded rather than super) and is down on power.
BUT, i've been offered a bottom end out of a 94 mk3 8v. Does this bottom end have any complications when swapping just the block over retaining my 16v head and ancillaries? Are there any other parts off the mk3 I would need? Reckon the guy is gonna be cool with a decent price, but I'm after getting my old girl up to standard as I wanna get rid of my civic but i'm used to the raw power that 200bhp gives.
Comments etc engine codes etc welcome :smiley:
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You cant use the 8v block on a 16v (well you can but its heavily involved and more suited to turbo conversions)
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Just put an ABF in there, with some proper management.
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Just put an ABF in there, with some proper management.
You and those ABF's :grin: I think dTea wants a bit more power/torque without having to change the engine completely.
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Have you had the ABF experience?
It's very persuasive, from the way it starts and idles like a kitten, to the way it just keeps asking you to spank it harder and more and more like a whore on a quiet night past 6k RPM
Should have a dyno plot off DannyP's after next Friday - will be interesting.
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Not yet :sad:
I do like you description though :grin:
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A 9A engine with your KR cams should see you knocking on the door of 150bhp and is a direct swap for your 1.8 engine as it's on a K-Jet set up in the Passat and Corrado.
Nick
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Cheers Nick, its a DIY thing that I was looking for as I want to get specialist work done on the bodywork, and possibly a 288mm brake set up. The coilovers, bushes etc I'll want to do myself and the ABF swap looks a little too time consuming. So a 9A lump it is then
If was swapping the whole thing, why not just 1.8T it and get some where around the 230-40 mark out of it? But then that means new gearbox and a lot more messing with clutches and a lot more expense....unless anyone on here wants to loan me it, cos i sure as hell cant fund that myself :grin:
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the 9a and abf conversions are identical, the only problem with using an abf is if you want to fit a 4 branch you have to modify the rear engine mount so the engine sits lower, but the abf is slightly better.
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oh and cut the rib out of your bonnet for the abf as well cos its taller
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the 6A and 9A engines feel freer revving, but the ABF develops more torqe through the revs ( grunt ) and will rev as high as the other 16vs
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the 6A and 9A engines feel freer revving, but the ABF develops more torqe through the revs ( grunt ) and will rev as high as the other 16vs
Can you explain why this is? Is it the head? As as far as I know the bottom ends are essentially the same and the ABF cams are similar to the KR ones I now have in my 9A.
Nick
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mixture of reasons, the abf is a tall block so has longer con rods, this gives a better rod / stroke ratio. lower thrust angels on the piston this helps it to produce more torqe and also be a bit more efficent but at the expense of rotating mass. hence the 6 and 9a feel revvyer. in theory the abf bottom end is acyualy beter suited to handeling high rpm tho.
theer are also differances in the head, the abf head was desinged to have higer port velocities ect. has smaller port than the kr but valve guides are shorter so less restiction also exhaust port has slightly diffrent desing to try remove flat spot all this is aimed at grunt though the revs. cam wise the abf has much diffrent cam it's got less overlap but more lift again desinged to give grunt through the revs as well as power. the KR head with more overlap and bigger port can flow more at higher rpm but suffers lots lower in the revs hence the ABF develops simalar peack power but through the revs gives more torqe
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oh and cut the rib out of your bonnet for the abf as well cos its taller
wait till after yuou fit it before you do this though, you may find it fits fine! I think its k-jet on abf that gives issues, the abf on std managment fitted to my mates has no clearance issues.
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I assume all the coolant hoses fit or do you need these from a donor car too?
and what about the radiator?
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depends what you're starting with really, if its a 1.6-1.8 then all the hoses will fit fine, top rad hose may need a bit of tweaking. Though if its a 1.6 you'll want to fit a GTI 8v rad & hoses, 1.6 rad is way too weedy. Also MK3 bottom ends use a different lower thermostat elbow & hose, just bin them and fit a MK2 Golf 1.6+ elbow with a new stat.
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you'll probably find it's a decent idea to fit a bigger rad at the same time.
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defanatly, would highly recomend useing a bigger rad than the GTI one as well, running a new GTI rad on mine and water temps get a bit higher than id like when giveing it some for any length of time. chould potentialy cause issues in warmer weather, so will be ftting tolado or passat rad soon.
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abf hose kit going to hook straight up to that then danny? there's a cordoba 16v sitting near me that i could get the rad and fan set up from but the piping looks completely different, ie. hoses on the right, not the left.
(before you say get the whole engine etc... it doesn't have the keys)
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depends what you're starting with really, if its a 1.6-1.8 then all the hoses will fit fine, top rad hose may need a bit of tweaking. Though if its a 1.6 you'll want to fit a GTI 8v rad & hoses, 1.6 rad is way too weedy. Also MK3 bottom ends use a different lower thermostat elbow & hose, just bin them and fit a MK2 Golf 1.6+ elbow with a new stat.
so the mk3 8v bottom end that i've found is useless then? Its gotta be a ABF or 9A really to get it right? Does this mean using the head on the donor block or as I was originally thinking, use my 16v head. I also know my block is K-Jet, so does this mean swapping the management over or not...i've got lost somewhere in this :embarassed:
Cheers guys
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Keep your 16V K-Jet head, and get an ABF (or 9A, but I get the feeling the general public like ABF's) bottom end. This means keeping the K-Jet management. As said if you do get an ABF as the block is taller you might need to remove the ribs.
In short get the ABF bottom end! or get an ABF complete setup if you can as it sounds :evil:
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Well...the car is going over to Awesome or possibly Prosport to see if they can do anything with the 1.8 lump already in it as i'd like to keep it original as poss but ABF seems the way forward...but i gotta say the 9A sounds easier!! :undecided:
Will keep people posted as this starts properly and i might just need a project thread soon :wink:
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No point modifying the KR, 2 litre conversion is better and far cheaper. You need a 2 litre 16v bottom end: The 9A is a short block from the passat/corrado. The 6A is a short block from Audi 80s etc - the only difference between the 9A and 6A is that the 6A is mounted longitundinally so you have to change the sump and oil pump over to fit it in a vw; as you will most likey replace the oil pump and can use the kr sump this is hardly a problem. The 6As are generally cheaper than the 9A as more plentiful and less sought after. The other engine is the ABF from the mk3 golf and equivalent Seat engines as mentioned. These are long blocks though, so need additional clearence on bonnet and downpipes aren't a straight fit; I think there is one 4-1 manifold on the market that is designed for the abf conversion mind, though not certain.
You can bolt the kr head to any of these 2 litre bottom ends, using kr cams etc and retaining all k-jet management. This should give you 150-160 bhp. With proper rebuild, balancing etc, high lift cams, head work and a proper set up then you should see 180bhp+. Then when you get bored of that you can turbo it :)
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if you find a good abf it is worth trying to get the ecu loom and keys. ( or just have the ecu cracked ) i think youd find it better setup but if small amounts of wireing scare you it works on k jet aswell. 170 bhp is quite easy for abf on efi as well
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theres no real need to swap the 9a/6a head for a kr one they all flow near enough the same. All you really need to do is swap in a kr inlet or pair of abf cams and you're away. The ABF head is supposed to be a bit better but even then I dont think its worth the effort if the std head is ok.
As for rad a GTI rad is fine for most everyday uses, my friends ABF has a new 8v rad and hes never had an issue. If you feel like traking it though then its worth going bigger! That being said bigger is always better so if you have a broken 8v rad or are starting with a car with something smaller theres definitly no harm in upsizing! If you do go with a bigger rad get the upper & lower hoses to go with it.
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im using an 8v rad with no problems also, i would try the rad you have first before splashing out
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Cheers for all the info guys...the big q now is where to source the lump from...thats if Awesome tell me hte 1.8 lump is on its way out if pushed any harder. Went for another little blat today and a guy in a CTR was still looking as tho i was mad driving summat this old :grin: Also funnier as the tiddler was in her seat in the back.
If i can ge the lump for the money i'm prepared to spend then the 9A will be going in just to make things easier...the ABF may beyond me as i would want to run its management rather than sticking with K.
Still think its a shame that I live in Manchester and not many people up here with Mk2's...very rarely do you see one let alone someone to talk to about conversion or owt. But a big thanks for everyones feedback. :cool: