GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: john_o on 13 September 2008, 10:27
-
ever since I bought my car I always felt the tendency for my ED30 to 'plough on' / understeer in dry / wet conditions was perhaps more than I thought it should be. (tried various tyre pressures)
Well for unexpected reasons I have recently had 2 new front tyres fitted and an alignment done.
Out of my control the specific type of tyre has also changed.
I bought the car with Michelin Pilot Exaltos all round (OEM from new)
I now have Michelin Pilot Sport replaced on the front (The tyre looks quite a bit different on the outer edge)
Anyway Ive been doing a few miles to bed them in , then yesterday I took a run to Scotland via some back roads Im familiar with.
The change is nothing short of a mini revelation.
I noticed as soon the tyre were fitted that the 'feel' and turn in was far superior (road noise is up too fwiw)
Yesterday the car had so much more grip in dry and wet conditions (dry going up , wet on the way back!) , the car just went where I pointed it and hung on. Of course the std cars limits are still reached if you push to hard.
In fact the difference is so marked that the rear tyres now give me a overteery setup (as they have reduced grip) , its the first time Ive seen ESP flashing with the back end out :evil: (before the front end was always the limiting factor)
Now it could be alignment too , but I have to say the Pilot Sports imho are a far superior tyre for my preferences.
The car seems much more like the GTI 'pointyness' Ive always read about.
Personally I would have chosen Goodyear Assymetrics , and I'm not entirely happy with a non matched 'unbalanced' setup front/rear. So I may have to change it further.
Time will tell but I though it was important to share :-)
JohnO
-
Thanks for sharing your comments. Can you please clarify a couple of issues though?
What is the exact spec of the original OEM tyres - ie, are they the first generation Pilot Exalto, or the current Pilot Exalto PE2 (the "PE2" will be in much smaller letters, so can be easily missed/overlooked).
Current Pilot Exalto PE2:
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t108/Teutonic_Tamer/tyres/MichelinPilotExaltoPE2-167.jpg)
And as above, the same question for the Pilot Sport. Are they the original "directional" Pilot Sport, or the current asymmetrical Pilot Sport PS2 - again, the "PS2" is very small.
Old Pilot Sport and current Pilot Sport PS2:
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t108/Teutonic_Tamer/tyres/PILOTSP.jpg)(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t108/Teutonic_Tamer/tyres/MichelinPilotSportPS2-167.jpg)
I agree that the Mich Pilot Sport PS2 is the best tyre on the planet, unfortunately, the very biased Evo tyre test put the PS2 at a serious disadvantage.
Regarding your "oversteer" comments, providing you have the latest PS2s, now that you have well and truely "srubbed" them in, I would recommend putting them on the rears, and moving the older Exaltos to the front. This will (a) give you a safer handling characteristic, and (b) help you to wear them out much quicker - so you can get another pair of Pilot Sports. :wink: :smiley:
-
Ok TT , just for you :smiley:
Rear Exaltos are the new PE2 type
Front are the new PS2 assymetrical pattern
both are EXTRA LOAD as well
I hear what you are saying but I would hate to go back to the 'old feel' for x thousand miles and I prefer the rear slip bias(until I put it in a ditch !), it really felt that bad in terms of no grip.
In fact I still feel there are even more improvements to be made to reduce understeer , so its not that bad it just rebalances the car rather than the prev terminal understeer at every roundabout
What you say though is good and safe advice which you can remind me if I bin it :grin:
Exaltos are wearing well , so I will see if the improved performance compromises the PS2 life.
Commonly PS2 are VERY expensive.
Do you not like the Assymetric Goodyear F1 as recomended in EVO review ?
(I raved about the old GSD2 and GSD3 tyres)
What I need to do , is put the PS2 's on the back and fit Goodyear Assymetrics on the front and that will tell me which to have as a full set of 4 lol.
sidenote : I ran PS2 on my old E46 M3 and loved them too , but when it came time to replace I bought Goodyear GSD3's as they were as good but 50% of the price.
Money no option Id get PS2 , but in the real world Im probably goodyear biased
-
Did the alignment need adjusting. If it did, then this on it's own would make a big difference to grip/stability.
Were the old tyres evenly worn across the width?
-
alignment was fine before , and the tyres had worn evenly across the tread.
I added it as a caveat as it was also something that had changed , but I attribute the improvement to the tyres
-
Where was your destination in Scotland John_O? I regularly travel between Manchester and Edinburgh, I leave the M74 at J13 and head towards Biggar then take the B7016 to the A70 which has a good mix of quick and winding sections and is also a very quiet road. It's a typical British A road so has some dodgy surfaces that test your cars composure and compliance. The ED30 was a revelation on this road compared to my previous car an Alfa GT 3.2 which only liked perfectly smooth roads.
I agree that the Mich Pilot Sport PS2 is the best tyre on the planet, unfortunately, the very biased Evo tyre test put the PS2 at a serious disadvantage.
TT why do you suggest that the EVO tyre test was biased? I've read every issue of EVO since issue 1 and have always considered it be a genuinely 'unbiased' magazine with no alegience to any mark, they have been 'accused' of siding with Porsche and Subaru in the past, but they do have a fetish for drivers cars. Pirelli generally provide all the tyres for their track tests to give an even playing field, so if they were going to be biased towards any tyre you would think it would be that brand and not Goodyear.
-
I agree that the Mich Pilot Sport PS2 is the best tyre on the planet, unfortunately, the very biased Evo tyre test put the PS2 at a serious disadvantage.
TT why do you suggest that the EVO tyre test was biased? I've read every issue of EVO since issue 1 and have always considered it be a genuinely 'unbiased' magazine with no alegience to any mark, they have been 'accused' of siding with Porsche and Subaru in the past, but they do have a fetish for drivers cars. Pirelli generally provide all the tyres for their track tests to give an even playing field, so if they were going to be biased towards any tyre you would think it would be that brand and not Goodyear.
Huh - I don't think I said Evo was biased towards Goodyear! I merely stated that it was biased in such a way that the PS2 was at a disadvantage!
This "bias" I referr to has nothing to do with the actual tests, or the surface, or location (however, the intense heat and "baking sunshine" of Italy is very different to our road conditions here in Blighty - so whilst a tyre may perform more favourably in hotter climes, in cooler conditions, it may perform worse).
The bias is a simple, basic, fundamental - but extremely important cock-up. Namely the Load Index of all the tyres used in their test. We all know that the Golf 5 GTI must use "Extra Load" tyres - yet in the Evo test, the Michelin PS2s (and two others) were only a standard load tyre. This will give a considerable "skew" to the test results, particularly those specific tests which actually "load up" a tyre, such as the handling tests (lap times, and lateral G, cornering - both wet and dry), braking tests (wet braking, dry braking), and even the rolling resistance tests. :rolleyes:
Unfortunately, many people worship what Evo says as Gospel truth. :rolleyes:
However, lets say they were testing a Ford Focus ST (or whatever their GTI equivalent is these days) against a GTI, not tyres or anything, but the cars as a "whole". They then filled the blue oval exclusively with either Shell V-Power or Tesco 99, but quietly run the GTI on Asda standard 95 unleaded - and the Focus blitzed the GTI. I think we would all call that biased, and foul play - probably becuase most peeps know the differences between petrols. Unfortunately, tyres are a bit of a "black art", and the vast majority know fcuk all about them, let alone the specific importance of the Load Index. Indeed, on this very forum, we have peeps who had virtually new cheap korean crap tyres on, complained of iffy handling, yet didn't associate the crap handling with the crap tyres!
-
I was surprised how badly the Michelin PS2 fared in the latest Auto Express trye test. All testing was carried out at Michelin's own tre testing facility in France too!
There doesn't seem to be any online versions of the test available for viewing though, just what was printed in the mag.
~The only test the PS2 was outright winner was the rolling resistance test, which we all knew anyway as they tend to last the longest.
-
I was surprised how badly the Michelin PS2 fared in the latest Auto Express trye test. All testing was carried out at Michelin's own tre testing facility in France too!
There doesn't seem to be any online versions of the test available for viewing though, just what was printed in the mag.
Can you scan it? E-mail it to me if you don't wanna post it, as I'd be very interested in reading it, and picking over the finer points! :wink: :smiley: Or when was the relevant issue - is it still on the shelves?
~The only test the PS2 was outright winner was the rolling resistance test, which we all knew anyway as they tend to last the longest.
Low rolling resistance and long tyre life arn't directly related. One has to do with tread compound, and the other has to do with constructural rigidity of the carcass. :wink: :smiley:
-
I was surprised how badly the Michelin PS2 fared in the latest Auto Express trye test. All testing was carried out at Michelin's own tre testing facility in France too!
There doesn't seem to be any online versions of the test available for viewing though, just what was printed in the mag.
Can you scan it? E-mail it to me if you don't wanna post it, as I'd be very interested in reading it, and picking over the finer points! :wink: :smiley: Or when was the relevant issue - is it still on the shelves?
~The only test the PS2 was outright winner was the rolling resistance test, which we all knew anyway as they tend to last the longest.
Low rolling resistance and long tyre life arn't directly related. One has to do with tread compound, and the other has to do with constructural rigidity of the carcass. :wink: :smiley:
Sorry I ain't got a scanner! It was issue 1027 dated 27 Aug-2 Sept, maybe available from back issues?
The wet handling test was the real fall-down for Michelin, with it coming position 12 out of 15.
Pirelli P Zero Y rated XL was the overall winner of the test.
-
I was surprised how badly the Michelin PS2 fared in the latest Auto Express trye test. All testing was carried out at Michelin's own tre testing facility in France too!
There doesn't seem to be any online versions of the test available for viewing though, just what was printed in the mag.
Can you scan it? E-mail it to me if you don't wanna post it, as I'd be very interested in reading it, and picking over the finer points! :wink: :smiley: Or when was the relevant issue - is it still on the shelves?
~The only test the PS2 was outright winner was the rolling resistance test, which we all knew anyway as they tend to last the longest.
Low rolling resistance and long tyre life arn't directly related. One has to do with tread compound, and the other has to do with constructural rigidity of the carcass. :wink: :smiley:
Sorry I ain't got a scanner! It was issue 1027 dated 27 Aug-2 Sept, maybe available from back issues?
The wet handling test was the real fall-down for Michelin, with it coming position 12 out of 15.
I would really question the validity of that! Anyone will tell you that Michelins (the entire range) in the wet are where they really excel. On a very wet trackday in my last S4, I consistently - and literally run rings around other cars, all with a variety of other tyre makes. The real shocker for me was the latest RS4 (which I now have), which had Pirelli P Zero Rossos. We took turns in following each other, and he (in the RS4 with Pirellis) kept loosing on every single corner in the wet. His tyres were virtually brand new, with about 6½mm tread, and my Mich PS2s were about half worn at 3-4mm.
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t108/Teutonic_Tamer/my%20Audi%20B6%20S4%20sal/S4_TrackDay_am_2679.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t108/Teutonic_Tamer/my%20Audi%20B6%20S4%20sal/S4_TrackDay_pm_2679.jpg)
Pirelli P Zero Y rated XL was the overall winner of the test.
That does not relate to any real-life experiences. Every single person I know who had the Pirelli P Zero Rossos on their RS4s had some serious complaints, :angry: would never recommend them, would never refit them again, :sick: and would go for either Mich PS2, Conti CSC3, or Goodyear F1 Asymmetrics - and ALL said the Pirelli was considerably worse than what they had been replaced with!
The ONLY time the P Zero gets any kind of good reports from owners - is if they have "over tyred" their car. :rolleyes: What I mean, is if they have put BFO 18" or so rims on a Corsa/Saxo/Ibiza - which clearly does not have the weight of say an RS4, and nor do their cars "stress" the tyres either.
On my RS4, I had to bin the OEM Pirellis when they still had 5mm of tread, because they really were fcuking lethal in the wet. Total aquaplaning (on roads I know like the back of my hand) at 40mph! ABS activating on all four wheels at even modest braking. And in the dry, the fronts would always lock and be completely overwhealmed by my ceramic brakes. Changed them to PS2s, and the car was very dramatically changed, for the better.
-
....Noticing your new signature, T_T, you'll doubtless enjoy this : -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=067FMmyrXmQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=067FMmyrXmQ&feature=related)
-
Where was your destination in Scotland John_O?
Funnily enough it was Ayr , so its the same route you are talking about , a real mix with a few really tricky off camber corners.
Awesome road , but really going to hurt if you get it wrong :shocked:
It was wet on the way back down (and dark) which added to the fun !
Really miss the driving roads round that area after moving to warrington........
John
-
Where was your destination in Scotland John_O?
Funnily enough it was Ayr , so its the same route you are talking about , a real mix with a few really tricky off camber corners.
Awesome road , but really going to hurt if you get it wrong :shocked:
It was wet on the way back down (and dark) which added to the fun !
Really miss the driving roads round that area after moving to warrington........
John
you got lots of roundabouts in warrington though :laugh:
-
ressurrected (sp?) as I have now done well over 1500 miles on them
The PS2's are night and day above the Exaltos.
Dry conditions
crisper turn in . holds for longer , breakaway on the limit seems more progressive (exaltos ar on/off once the grip is breached)
Wet
sooooo much more grip. Spirited roundabouts have a balanced car (rather than terminal understeer)
(although PS2 on the rear would change that again)
I am able to deploy full throttle in 2nd gear in the wet with little or no ESP/wheelspin.
(and that was 2 nights ago in torrential rain and 14psi on the boost gauge!)
(just to try I wasnt being a prat honest !)
Wear seems noticeable (to be expected) , so they must be softer than exaltos.
Tyre noise is unchanged AFAIK
Long story short , the tyres your ED30 (or GTI) came with determine a hell of a lot about the dynamics of your car!
Fabuluous tyres , highly recommended.
-
....
At the risk of sounding smug :smug: :smug:, one albeit much more expensive but extremely effective way of reducing understeer and increasing traction/grip is to install a Quaiffe ATB diff. It truly does transform a Mk5 GTI's handling at all speeds in both wet and dry conditions.
:afro:
-
....
At the risk of sounding smug :smug: :smug:
you got an LSD Robin , never realised :lipsrsealed: :grin:
-
....
At the risk of sounding smug :smug: :smug:
you got an LSD Robin , never realised :lipsrsealed: :grin:
....Oh! Let me tell you more............................................................................. :grin:
-
ressurrected (sp?) as I have now done well over 1500 miles on them
The PS2's are night and day above the Exaltos.
Dry conditions
crisper turn in . holds for longer , breakaway on the limit seems more progressive (exaltos ar on/off once the grip is breached)
Wet
sooooo much more grip. Spirited roundabouts have a balanced car (rather than terminal understeer)
(although PS2 on the rear would change that again)
I am able to deploy full throttle in 2nd gear in the wet with little or no ESP/wheelspin.
(and that was 2 nights ago in torrential rain and 14psi on the boost gauge!)
(just to try I wasnt being a prat honest !)
Wear seems noticeable (to be expected) , so they must be softer than exaltos.
Tyre noise is unchanged AFAIK
Long story short , the tyres your ED30 (or GTI) came with determine a hell of a lot about the dynamics of your car!
Fabuluous tyres , highly recommended.
So I take it you like the Mich PS2s then? :evil:
Do I gather you only got a pair though? If so, get the newer PS2s on the rear, and move the older Exaltos to the front.
-
....
At the risk of sounding smug :smug: :smug:, one albeit much more expensive but extremely effective way of reducing understeer and increasing traction/grip is to install a Quaiffe ATB diff. It truly does transform a Mk5 GTI's handling at all speeds in both wet and dry conditions.
:afro:
Sorry, but completely disagree. Grip and traction is only determined, in the final instances, by the abilities of the tyre. You can have the best possible diff in the world, but if you have shyte tyres, you will still be heading for the ditch. And do tell us how a diff will help with braking grip, aquaplaning resistance, ride comfort, tyre noise - not to mention everything associated with the undriven rear tyres? :rolleyes:
Yes, the Quaife ATB diff does work, but you are "bigging it up" way beyond its actual capabilities.
-
....
At the risk of sounding smug :smug: :smug:
you got an LSD Robin , never realised :lipsrsealed: :grin:
It isnt actually a "limited slip" diff, but actually an "automatic torque bias-ing" diff - crucial differences between the two.
-
....
At the risk of sounding smug :smug: :smug:
you got an LSD Robin , never realised :lipsrsealed: :grin:
....Oh! Let me tell you more............................................................................. :grin:
One mans experience is worth 100 'experts'.
-
....
At the risk of sounding smug :smug: :smug:, one albeit much more expensive but extremely effective way of reducing understeer and increasing traction/grip is to install a Quaiffe ATB diff. It truly does transform a Mk5 GTI's handling at all speeds in both wet and dry conditions.
:afro:
Sorry, but completely disagree. Grip and traction is only determined, in the final instances, by the abilities of the tyre. You can have the best possible diff in the world, but if you have shyte tyres, you will still be heading for the ditch. And do tell us how a diff will help with braking grip, aquaplaning resistance, ride comfort, tyre noise - not to mention everything associated with the undriven rear tyres? :rolleyes:
Yes, the Quaife ATB diff does work, but you are "bigging it up" way beyond its actual capabilities.
.... :shocked: I completely agree with you!!
All I'm bigging up is that, imo, if you take exactly the same environment and conditions of road surface and tyres, and were able to test the car with and then without the ATB diff installed, then when ATB equipped, the car (Mk5 GTI) would handle it with far less understeer and better grip/traction.
Of course this doesn't apply to aquaplaning, braking grip, etc - Surely you didn't think I was claiming so.
-
....
At the risk of sounding smug :smug: :smug:, one albeit much more expensive but extremely effective way of reducing understeer and increasing traction/grip is to install a Quaiffe ATB diff. It truly does transform a Mk5 GTI's handling at all speeds in both wet and dry conditions.
:afro:
Sorry, but completely disagree. Grip and traction is only determined, in the final instances, by the abilities of the tyre. You can have the best possible diff in the world, but if you have shyte tyres, you will still be heading for the ditch. And do tell us how a diff will help with braking grip, aquaplaning resistance, ride comfort, tyre noise - not to mention everything associated with the undriven rear tyres? :rolleyes:
Yes, the Quaife ATB diff does work, but you are "bigging it up" way beyond its actual capabilities.
.... :shocked: I completely agree with you!!
All I'm bigging up is that, imo, if you take exactly the same environment and conditions of road surface and tyres, and were able to test the car with and then without the ATB diff installed, then when ATB equipped, the car (Mk5 GTI) would handle it with far less understeer and better grip/traction.
Of course this doesn't apply to aquaplaning, braking grip, etc - Surely you didn't think I was claiming so.
I know you well enough to know what you are saying (I hope :embarassed:) - but the was an element of what you said which could be misunderstood by the casual reader - especially being as this thread is about tyres. :tongue: :wink: :smiley:
-
....
At the risk of sounding smug :smug: :smug:
you got an LSD Robin , never realised :lipsrsealed: :grin:
....Oh! Let me tell you more............................................................................. :grin:
One mans experience is worth 100 'experts'.
So being as you are neither a man, nor an expert, what category do you fall into? :rolleyes:
-
I know you well enough to know what you are saying (I hope :embarassed:) - but the was an element of what you said which could be misunderstood by the casual reader - especially being as this thread is about tyres. :tongue: :wink: :smiley:
....Furry muff, aka fur enuff, aka fair enough :afro: - Yes you do know me well enough to usually see what I'm trying to say. I must admit that I never think about 'outsiders' reading our posts and probably/possibly/definitely/maybe totally misinterpreting our pearls of wisdom!
:afro: Cheers!
-
I know you well enough to know what you are saying (I hope :embarassed:) - but the was an element of what you said which could be misunderstood by the casual reader - especially being as this thread is about tyres. :tongue: :wink: :smiley:
....Furry muff, aka fur enuff, aka fair enough :afro: - Yes you do know me well enough to usually see what I'm trying to say. I must admit that I never think about 'outsiders' reading our posts and probably/possibly/definitely/maybe totally misinterpreting our pearls of wisdom!
:afro: Cheers!
I don't know if JV has any stats, but I bet there are an aweful lot of lurkers who read but don't actually post. And then there are the Google spiders and the likes, which basically rip a copy the page, and store it in their own "off-line" cache for all the world to see! :smiley:
-
I know you well enough to know what you are saying (I hope :embarassed:) - but the was an element of what you said which could be misunderstood by the casual reader - especially being as this thread is about tyres. :tongue: :wink: :smiley:
....Furry muff, aka fur enuff, aka fair enough :afro: - Yes you do know me well enough to usually see what I'm trying to say. I must admit that I never think about 'outsiders' reading our posts and probably/possibly/definitely/maybe totally misinterpreting our pearls of wisdom!
:afro: Cheers!
I don't know if JV has any stats, but I bet there are an aweful lot of lurkers who read but don't actually post. And then there are the Google spiders and the likes, which basically rip a copy the page, and store it in their own "off-line" cache for all the world to see! :smiley:
....Oh well, after over 20,000 posts on Tyresmoke and thousands elsewhere, changing my habits now would be like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted!
-
I know you well enough to know what you are saying (I hope :embarassed:) - but the was an element of what you said which could be misunderstood by the casual reader - especially being as this thread is about tyres. :tongue: :wink: :smiley:
....Furry muff, aka fur enuff, aka fair enough :afro: - Yes you do know me well enough to usually see what I'm trying to say. I must admit that I never think about 'outsiders' reading our posts and probably/possibly/definitely/maybe totally misinterpreting our pearls of wisdom!
:afro: Cheers!
I don't know if JV has any stats, but I bet there are an aweful lot of lurkers who read but don't actually post. And then there are the Google spiders and the likes, which basically rip a copy the page, and store it in their own "off-line" cache for all the world to see! :smiley:
....Oh well, after over 20,000 posts on Tyresmoke and thousands elsewhere, changing my habits now would be like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted!
LOL! :grin: