GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: Top Cat on 04 September 2008, 16:08
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1. Can i coast in neutral with a DSG box,and what problem's will it cause if i cannot do this. :undecided:
2. If i hold my foot on the brake for too long can this cause any problem's to my DSG. :undecided:
3. Would there be any long term damage if i accidently knock it into neutral while say driving at 60 MPH. :undecided:
4. Would you recommend a different service regime for my DSG box if the car was remapped. :undecided:
5. What is the difference between D-mode & S-mode. :undecided:
6. Is it safe to use S-mode regularly. :undecided:
7. How many times can i use launch control. :drool: :undecided:
8. Can VW use excessive use of launch control to negate paying out on warranty work. :undecided:
9. Is there a safe limit to added BHP, which wont affect the DSG box adversely.
10. How much is the DSG service.? :lipsrsealed:
11. How much £ am i looking at for a replacement clutch pack. :lipsrsealed:
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This is STRICTLY a Q & A sticky.
Spamming and off-topic posts will be cleaned off :cool:
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1 - Definitely don't coast in N neutral. Handbook advises against and T_T has posted detailed info elsewhere.
2 - No problems, in my experience, are caused to DSG by keeping foot on brake while at standstill. I have done it continually for 52k miles without signs of any problem.
3 - I don't think you can knock it into N but have to use the gearknob button. I think I have changed into N once and immediately shifted out and no problems if just for an instant.
4 - If remapped it would be a sensible precaution to change the DSG oil and filter more often. Frequency is on my list of questions for VW Racing soon.
5 - D-mode shifts the gears at the first rpm opportunity and so keeps your revs low. S-mode is Sports mode and takes your revs to kiss the red zone before shifting gear and shifts down to deliver optimum power and revs. It's also influenced by your use of the brake pedal - All very clever stuff.
6 - Quite safe to use S-mode regularly. For my first 15,000 miles I only used D and S. I used S for overtakes and going fast in the twisties.
7 - Launch Control frequency of use? - Hmm, I don't know for certain but the process will obviously add stress to your transmission by its very nature.
8 - VW vs You using Launch Control? - If it's logged in the ECU you might have some lengthy disputes which can only be settled by the technicalities of law - All complicated and a legal case potentially expensive. VW have much much deeper pockets than you or I.
9 - High bhp won't overstress the DSG but torque over a certain limit will. The well established tuners limit torque on DSG GTI's to about 300 ft lb / 400 Nm. The Ed30 uses the same DSG. High bhp on a quattro with DSG will potentially stress the clutches because there is less 'give'/slippage than with FWD.
10 - How much is the DSG service? - Ask your VW dealer.
11 - How much a replacement clutch pack? - I dunno - They aren't commonly available at this time.
N.B.: I have answered all these questions to the best of my knowledge and stand to be corrected.
Hope this helps,
:afro: :cool: :afro:
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RED your answer to question 2 is disputed by TT on page 4, reply 7, of the DSG coasting thread Which is why i started this thread because i gave the same answer as you. :shocked:
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RED your answer to question 2 is disputed by TT on page 4, reply 7, of the DSG coasting thread Which is why i started this thread because i gave the same answer as you. :shocked:
.... :grin: Somehow I just knew that at least one of my answers might contradict TT's posts! I can't categorically say TT is wrong - he may be right - but it's another question I'll be asking VWR and their gearbox boffin later this month.
:afro:
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Red, I think you need to read your manual again. Whilst it is perfectly reasonable to hold the car stationary in gear with the footbrake for short periods, IIRC, the manual recommends shifting into neutal. Furthermore, to keep a car stationary car in gear, with the footbrake is a definate failure of the driving test - "when stationary, apply the handbrake, shift into neutral, and lift off the footbrake" - and this is irrespective of a manual or automatic driving test.
Ill try and give these points some detailed answers later.
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....Who said anything about me passing a driving test? :wink:
The only time I use the handbrake is when parking and leaving the car.
If it's more than a traffic light I sometimes shift to N but still hold the footbrake.
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The only time I use the handbrake is when parking and leaving the car.
If it's more than a traffic light I sometimes shift to N but still hold the footbrake.
I think the manual tends to agree with you RR :wink:
Quote :
"Stopping Briefly
- Use the foot brake to prevent the car "creeping" forwards, e.g at traffic lights. The selector lever does not need to be put into the positions P or N for this".
The question is - how long a time is briefly ?
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....Jonny - I think it probably says "briefly" because, as TT points out, strictly speaking if a stop is longer than 'brief' we are meant to use the handbrake but I think this is only for driving test passing purposes.
With some modern cars having DSG and Hill Assistants etc, I'm not convinced that the authorities have got up to speed on such systems yet. Isn't the original reason for insisting we use our handbrakes relating to safety on cars without such technology?
I used to do the same on my automatic BMW - For over 120,000 miles without a single transmission problem throughout its life.
However, in using the traffic lights stop as an example, the handbook is defining "briefly" as quite a long time and such stops can be also very frequent.
Until TT puts forward different reasoning to say otherwise, I'm not convinced it's a problem.
:afro:
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There is an important technicality here that perhaps not many people appreciate. The DSG box 'knows' when the brake pedal is depressed with the car at rest and totally disengages the clutch. You will notice that when you release the brake, there is a brief moment before the clutch starts to bite and the car start to move forward. Equally, when on an incline, note that the car will roll back imediately after releasing the brake before the clutch realises that the brake is off and starts to engage (obviously some use of the handbrake is required here to avoid rolling back). Anyway, this all suggests to me that there is absolutely no danger in leaving the car in D with the foot on the brake for as long as required. Having said that, however, I do personally shift to N but this is force of habit as I have done this for all my cars.........manual, auto and now DSG!
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....Who said anything about me passing a driving test? :wink:
Erm - I hope you are aware that as an experienced driver, your driving must still comply with the basic minimum standards of the current driving test. And ignorance is no excuse under British law. :smug:
The only time I use the handbrake is when parking and leaving the car.
Then you have just admitted to failing to be in proper control of a motor vehicle. And I hope Mr Plod, or the insurance company don't hear about that! :rolleyes:
If it's more than a traffic light I sometimes shift to N but still hold the footbrake.
That is so anti-social. I really hate being blinded from brake lights by inconsiderate ar$eholes when sat behind them in a stationary queue. Again, both the Highway Code, and the drivng test are very clear. The footbrake is ONLY to be used for slowing down and stopping the car. It is NOT to be used for holding a car in the stationary position.
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....Jonny - I think it probably says "briefly" because, as TT points out, strictly speaking if a stop is longer than 'brief' we are meant to use the handbrake but I think this is only for driving test passing purposes.
Absolutely WRONG. The handbrake is meant to be used at ALL times when the car is stationary - driving test or not. Any Policeman (TrafPol/RPU), and any RoSPA or IAM assessor will categorically tell you the same.
With some modern cars having DSG and Hill Assistants etc, I'm not convinced that the authorities have got up to speed on such systems yet. Isn't the original reason for insisting we use our handbrakes relating to safety on cars without such technology?
Nope. Using handbrakes is to comply with UK road traffic legislation. Read the manual, and just like ABS/ESP, it will clearly state that all such systems are soley as a "driver aid", and should not be relied upon, and nor should your driving be adapted to "utilise" such systems.
If you were involved in an accident, whereby a stationary vehicle was NOT held in the stationary position because of a lack of handbrake use, then you would absolutely be found either 100% liable, or found to have positively contributed to the accident! There are NO "get-outs" for relying on driver aids! :shocked: :rolleyes:
I used to do the same on my automatic BMW - For over 120,000 miles without a single transmission problem throughout its life.
And . . . . . . it is a completely different construction of transmission! :rolleyes:
Robin, perhaps you ought to read Hurdys post earlier in the thread! :rolleyes:
However, in using the traffic lights stop as an example, the handbook is defining "briefly" as quite a long time and such stops can be also very frequent.
Until TT puts forward different reasoning to say otherwise, I'm not convinced it's a problem.
It's your gearbox, Robin, and your wallet! But just to clarify, the handbook does NOT describe the "traffic lights" as being "quite a long time" at all. Of course common sense should prevail, but you method is completely at odds with any! :smiley:
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There is an important technicality here that perhaps not many people appreciate. The DSG box 'knows' when the brake pedal is depressed with the car at rest and totally disengages the clutch.
Absolutely and categorically WRONG!
At a stationary position, the DSG does NOT completely disengage the clutch. It is only partially engaged. The clutch is actually held at the start of the bite point.
If you don't believe me, try a little experiment. Engine running, all radio/CD/iPod switched OFF, and all cooling fans/air com switched off. Now, put your foot on the brake, and watch the rev counter and listen for the engine note. Now engage a gear (D, S or tip mode), and you will hear the engine note drop, and the rev counter also drop slightly. The revs will quickly rise back to the tick-over speed, but the engine note will still sound as though it is labouring. Now, with the foot still on the foot brake, move the shifter back into neutral. The revs will briefly rise, then settle back to the proper idle, and the engine note will change back from its "labouring" sound to its "unloaded" sound. You may also be able to feel a slight jolt in the car, when a gear or neutral is selected.
Please don't post unfounded tosh! :angry:
You will notice that when you release the brake, there is a brief moment before the clutch starts to bite and the car start to move forward.
Nope, that "delay" is when the clutch goes from bite point to fully engaged. A clutch is not like a switch - it does not have an "on" and an "off" position! :rolleyes:
Equally, when on an incline, note that the car will roll back imediately after releasing the brake before the clutch realises that the brake is off and starts to engage (obviously some use of the handbrake is required here to avoid rolling back).
Meaning what, exactly. On any manual car (don't forget, the DSG is an automated manual), when the clutch is pressed, with the brakes released, the car WILL roll on an incline - irrespective of weather the box is in gear or neutral.
The ONLY reason the clutch starts to engage and take up full drive is down to two specific instructions to its' ECU - (a) the selector lever is in a "gear" position (ie, D, S, R, or manual/tip mode position, and NOT in N or P), and (b) it is receiving NO signal from the brake pedal switch! Weather the car is on an incline, or is totatlly flat - it has jack schit to do with controlling the DSG ECU.
Anyway, this all suggests to me that there is absolutely no danger in leaving the car in D with the foot on the brake for as long as required.
Sorry, but that is blatantly WRONG. I suggest you monitor the DSG oil temp then!
Having said that, however, I do personally shift to N but this is force of habit as I have done this for all my cars.........manual, auto and now DSG!
Correct, and good sound advice. :smiley:
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....Who said anything about me passing a driving test? :wink:
Erm - I hope you are aware that as an experienced driver, your driving must still comply with the basic minimum standards of the current driving test. And ignorance is no excuse under British law. :smug:
The only time I use the handbrake is when parking and leaving the car.
Then you have just admitted to failing to be in proper control of a motor vehicle. And I hope Mr Plod, or the insurance company don't hear about that! :rolleyes:
If it's more than a traffic light I sometimes shift to N but still hold the footbrake.
That is so anti-social. I really hate being blinded from brake lights by inconsiderate ar$eholes when sat behind them in a stationary queue. Again, both the Highway Code, and the drivng test are very clear. The footbrake is ONLY to be used for slowing down and stopping the car. It is NOT to be used for holding a car in the stationary position.
....I have no doubt that, technically in the eyes of the written law, you are correct. However, I do not see how being stationary in D and with foot on brake but handbrake off, is "failing to be in proper control of a motor vehicle" in reality. I have been in this state many, many times with a Police car behind me and never been stopped for a word as a consequence. Just because something is written in law doesn't make it correct - For example, we all know that in many conditions, 80 mph on a motorway is perfectly safe in an appropriate vehicle but the law says 70 mph.
It's very simple to avoid any irritation you may feel when behind someone like me with their brake lights on - Just don't stare at the lights - You should be looking further ahead anyway in order to assess the overall situation.
Now I shall go and read the physical reasons for not doing so as in your other post.......
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If you don't believe me, try a little experiment. Engine running, all radio/CD/iPod switched OFF, and all cooling fans/air com switched off. Now, put your foot on the brake, and watch the rev counter and listen for the engine note. Now engage a gear (D, S or tip mode), and you will hear the engine note drop, and the rev counter also drop slightly. The revs will quickly rise back to the tick-over speed, but the engine note will still sound as though it is labouring. Now, with the foot still on the foot brake, move the shifter back into neutral. The revs will briefly rise, then settle back to the proper idle, and the engine note will change back from its "labouring" sound to its "unloaded" sound. You may also be able to feel a slight jolt in the car, when a gear or neutral is selected.
This is true. Another way to prove this is go into your MFD menu, go to units and select the fuel consumption units to l/100km, then go back out of the menu and scroll to the instantaneous fuel consumption display. You now have a reading of fuel consumption in l/hr when the car is stationary (this value changes to l/100km when the car is in motion). Try the above experiment again and you will see that when in neutral with the a/c off you get a reading of about 1.0l/hr, now put the car into D and hold it on the brakes and you'll get a reading of around 1.3l/hr. So it becomes clear that the engine is under load when in D and held on the brakes, and it's using more fuel too!
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There is an important technicality here that perhaps not many people appreciate. The DSG box 'knows' when the brake pedal is depressed with the car at rest and totally disengages the clutch.
Absolutely and categorically WRONG!
At a stationary position, the DSG does NOT completely disengage the clutch. It is only partially engaged. The clutch is actually held at the start of the bite point.
If you don't believe me, try a little experiment. Engine running, all radio/CD/iPod switched OFF, and all cooling fans/air com switched off. Now, put your foot on the brake, and watch the rev counter and listen for the engine note. Now engage a gear (D, S or tip mode), and you will hear the engine note drop, and the rev counter also drop slightly. The revs will quickly rise back to the tick-over speed, but the engine note will still sound as though it is labouring. Now, with the foot still on the foot brake, move the shifter back into neutral. The revs will briefly rise, then settle back to the proper idle, and the engine note will change back from its "labouring" sound to its "unloaded" sound. You may also be able to feel a slight jolt in the car, when a gear or neutral is selected.
....Well, I fully expected your posted experiment (TT) to be the case when I went out and tested it numerous times for my own education. To my complete surprise, the rev counter didn't even flicker and didn't change its revs nor engine sound whether I selected D, N, or P (with the handbrake off in all cases). I really wasn't looking to contradict your post.
Is your GTI a DSG or Manual version, TT?
The only circumstances which change my car's revs/engine sound when stationary is use of the aircon unit.
Unless it's a very cold start, I rarely "feel a slight jolt" when a gear or neutral is selected.
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Can someone tell me if im not ment to hold my foot on the brake pedal on a hillstart, and pull the handbrake , then put it in neutral!!!!, what a farse!!!!, by time ive put it back in D, released the handbrake,without making the dsg make an almighty clunk,without pi$$ing peeps off taking ages to pull away!. id rather hold my foot on the brake in half the time .If they get blinded by my brake lights then they are obviously sat too close to my a$$!. tough titties in my book.
Someone else with dsg, put car in N or Park for a hillstart, pull up handbrake and then when the lights go green, you try and pull away without making yourself look a complete tit! :laugh:
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Hey Phil
On a hill I simply hold the foot-brake and pull up the handbrake- and leave the transmission in drive.
Then as I release the foot-brake and the clutch engages I release the handbrake and presto- move off without rolling backwards.
Think that's what is recommended in the owners manual!
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yes, but doing that method, the car is still trying to eat the brake pads/discs, and doesnt do the brakes or handbrake anygood, you might aswell drive with your handbrake on!!!.
If your leaving it in D whilst the handbrake is ON on a hill, the engine and gearbox are now straining!!!!.If you have it in the handbook, then post it, this should be interesting....
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ok reading the drivers handbook.....
with a gear engaged,take your foot from the brake and depress the accelerator
If you have to stop the vehicle on a gradient,always hold the vehical in position using the FOOT brake to stop it from rolling back
Well there it clearly states in the handbook, page 117 in the warning section.
Sorry but i shall be holding my foot on the pedal!!, and if T.T you see a DSG badge on a rear of a GTi, then back off to avoid blindness! :wink:
It goes onto say.......
do not use the accelerator as a form of holding the vehicle stationary on a hill as it will cause the DSG box to overheat and cause damage
My method is always been, steep hill,hold with foot brake. When lights turn green, quickly pull up handbrake to stop car from rolling back and the release as you press the go pedal.
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ok reading the drivers handbook.....
with a gear engaged,take your foot from the brake and depress the accelerator
If you have to stop the vehicle on a gradient,always hold the vehical in position using the FOOT brake to stop it from rolling back
Well there it clearly states in the handbook, page 117 in the warning section.
Sorry but i shall be holding my foot on the pedal!!, and if T.T you see a DSG badge on a rear of a GTi, then back off to avoid blindness! :wink:
....Or to avoid being overcome by red mist! :laugh:
I expect that someone will remind us about the 'handbrake law'. Did you know that, by law still existing, you can take a King Charles Spaniel wherever you wish - It's a law introduced by King Charles II decreeing that the breed may not be forbidden entrance to any public place including the Houses of Parliament.
I think the point of this thread is to establish what is and isn't good for the DSG box of tricks. Sorry, T_T, but I'm yet to be convinced on this one but am still trying to keep an open mind.
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yes, but doing that method, the car is still trying to eat the brake pads/discs, and doesnt do the brakes or handbrake anygood, you might aswell drive with your handbrake on!!!.
If your leaving it in D whilst the handbrake is ON on a hill, the engine and gearbox are now straining!!!!.If you have it in the handbook, then post it, this should be interesting....
Misunderstanding- I'm not holding the car with only the handbrake engaged. It's handbrake+foot-brake when on an incline, so that when I take my foot of the accelerator the car doesn't roll back as the clutch engages.
So I think we're doing the exact same thing. :smiley: I wasn't holding the car on an incline with only the handbrake while in drive-the car wouldn't like that!
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yes sorry merv man, it was just replying to Teutonic tamers reason to why you shouldnt hold your foot on the foot brake when you at a standstill without blinding the person behind you especially at night with your break lights.
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Guys you are getting to separate issue's confused. :grin:
The question is when coming up to a set of lights how long should i leave it in D-mode for, if your going to be there a while IE its a big junction TT is advising that you put it in neutral. If you just pull up and they change to green almost straight away then staying in drive its OK. If you are stationary for any length of time and leave it in drive then what you are doing is holding it on the biting point of the clutch.
What is getting everyone confused is TT commented on driving style as well. If you pull up at a set of light's and put it in neutral then you can pump the brake, dance on the brake, do anything you want to do with the brake or indeed the hand brake it has no relevance to the question or to the gear box. :drool:
Even if you leave it in D-mode when really you should have put it in neutral all you are doing is shortening the life of the clutch, by how much who knows.
When i drive a normal car i hold it on the clutch quite often at junction's its the same thing, you shouldn't but we all do.
I think TT's point is when you pull up at a set of lights in a normal car 99% of us knock it into neutral and either put the handbrake on or hold the foot brake or sometimes do neither if on level ground. But in a DSG and i know i am guilty of this we just hold it on the brake, i think its the mindset that i don't need to touch the gear stick because its automatic as well. :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed:
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yes sorry merv man, it was just replying to Teutonic tamers reason to why you shouldnt hold your foot on the foot brake when you at a standstill without blinding the person behind you especially at night with your break lights.
Here in SA everyone (99.9%) holds the car with the footbrake and no one gets irritated with the lights. The ones that irritate are mostly BMW's with the rear foglights on- both sides of the car- BLINDING and can't see when the brake lights come on. At least VW put only one rear foglight on- half as blinding :smiley:
I had a look at the owners manual again, and nowhere does it say to shift the car into neutral if you are stopped in traffic.
It also says NEVER to put the car in N if the car is moving- with the engine on or the engine of.
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Here in SA everyone (99.9%) holds the car with the footbrake and no one gets irritated with the lights. The ones that irritate are mostly BMW's with the rear foglights on- both sides of the car- BLINDING and can't see when the brake lights come on. At least VW put only one rear foglight on- half as blinding
He speaks the truth... :undecided: :embarassed:
I dont know a lot about the DSG box but in the Pajero which is Auto and Tiptronic my dad always just slips the car into neutral and holds the car there with the foot brake. Robot changes the pops the car back into drive and pulls off. Thats how I drive the Pajero too.
Mike
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I dont tend to shift into N at lights/traffic jams etc If I did at every oppurtunity then it would be a right pain - especially as to get it back in gear you then need to press the brake pedal again - seems to defeat the object to me.
Longer periods I will shift into N but this isnt very often - long period I'm talking over a minute realistically.
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10. How much is the DSG service.? :lipsrsealed:
Shop around - difference was £40 when I asked.
Service was cheaper at one dealer, DSG cheaper at another, so I asked the cheaper service dealer to price match the DSG :smug: saved around £80 in total I think it was.