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Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: Top Cat on 03 September 2008, 16:38

Title: DSG coasting
Post by: Top Cat on 03 September 2008, 16:38
This topic came up a while back and i remembered it was something that should not be done. but can anyone tell the peeps on here what the actual damage would be done to the gearbox if this was done regulary. :nerd:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: joesgti on 03 September 2008, 16:39
you shouldnt do it in any auto car!!
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: SteveP on 03 September 2008, 16:41
It's all about the lubrication if I remember correct.

But give it five minutes and T_T will be along to make your brain hurt with the full technical explaination.  :laugh:  :wink:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: 08micsta on 03 September 2008, 16:43
I have no clue what you are talking about Top cat (Whats new though  :embarassed: )

Will wait for TT to fry our brains with info overload.  :nerd:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: clive on 03 September 2008, 16:45
Sorry if this is a dumb question but by coasting do you mean changing to N (neutral) and letting the car run under its own momentum?  For example when approaching stationary traffic I sometimes change to N and let the car free wheel for a bit before applying the brakes.
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: joesgti on 03 September 2008, 16:51
yea!!^^^ shouldnt be doing that
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Top Cat on 03 September 2008, 16:51
I have no clue what you are talking about Top cat (Whats new though  :embarassed: )

Will wait for TT to fry our brains with info overload.  :nerd:

Ok a couple of weeks back i mentioned that you should not put it neutral and cruise to a stop to save fuel.
Although most people know this is a no no a few people new to DSG did not, But when asked why you should not do this i was unable to tell them what the damage incurred would be.  :embarassed: But the font of all knowledge is on-line so as you and SteveG said prepare for technical overload.  :wink:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: joesgti on 03 September 2008, 16:54
i bet TT's only on his 3000th word by now, so his post will be finished soon  :grin: :grin:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 03 September 2008, 16:56
Do NOT shift the DSG into N when the car is in motion.  The DSG oil pump is on the far end of the box, and is driven by one of the input shafts.  Therefore N = no (or very low) DSG oil pressure and oil flow.

Its the same reason why the DSG should never be towed.  Even on conventional manual gearboxes, "wheels-on-the-ground" towing is strongly discouraged, and should only really be flat-bedded.

Furthermore, coasting in neutral actually uses MORE fuel - I'll let you chew over that whilst I nip out for a while, and have another play in the Touareg I'm borrowing at the mo!  :wink:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 03 September 2008, 16:57
i bet TT's only on his 3000th word by now, so his post will be finished soon  :grin: :grin:


^^^^^^  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh: ^^^^^^
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: clive on 03 September 2008, 17:01
yea!!^^^ shouldnt be doing that

Cheers!  I assume the others with DSG slip it into N when at a temporary standstill?  It's a bit of a pain that the car creeps forwards when in D/S/tiptronic and it didn't take me long to get sick of holding the foot brake on at lights.  Besides I think I read something in the manual about not holding her on the foot brake for long periods of time while at a standstill and in gear.

edit: Excuse the questions but I have only ever owned cars with manual boxes before the GTI
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Top Cat on 03 September 2008, 17:13
yea!!^^^ shouldnt be doing that

Cheers!  I assume the others with DSG slip it into N when at a temporary standstill?  It's a bit of a pain that the car creeps forwards when in D/S/tiptronic and it didn't take me long to get sick of holding the foot brake on at lights.  Besides I think I read something in the manual about not holding her on the foot brake for long periods of time while at a standstill and in gear.

edit: Excuse the questions but I have only ever owned cars with manual boxes before the GTI
Nothing wrong with the question, you might be asking, but i bet there is loads of people watching this wondering the same thing.
When you are holding it on the brake you are not damaging the clutch. but you are correct it is best policy to place in neutral if in a long que or think you are going to be stationary for a while. I find if i hold it on the brake i cant help creeping forward and it takes some getting used to at junction's.
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Edition30 on 03 September 2008, 17:16
Is it OK to do it in the manuals then?  :huh:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: wanderer on 03 September 2008, 17:20
Is it OK to do it in the manuals then?  :huh:

Should be fine in a manual, over small distances, as there's oil pump to drive.
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Top Cat on 03 September 2008, 17:21
Is it OK to do it in the manuals then?  :huh:
Yes but only when your racing me.  :laugh:
it alway's has been ok in manuals, but to be perfectly honest i dont know with modern cars  :undecided:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: 08micsta on 03 September 2008, 17:29
Off topic....

Top cat. Please email me some pics of your car on 08micsta@wbhs.org.za
I cant stand that sig of yours... The resolutions is all wrong and I cant ignore it any longer  :lipsrsealed:

I will make you a sig...
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Top Cat on 03 September 2008, 17:36
Micsta i find that offensive it took me 1 hour with all my photo bucket skills to do that.  :laugh: :laugh:
Just to let you know how good my computer skills are here is a new one i did for Mr greenouse. But for some reason when i offered it to him he respectively declined.  :wink:


(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/tomashandmilly/greenhouse_2-1.jpg)  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: 08micsta on 03 September 2008, 17:39
 :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Thats brilliant!!! I agree its much better than the useless one I did for him  :evil:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Top Cat on 03 September 2008, 17:42
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Thats brilliant!!! I agree its much better than the useless one I did for him  :evil:

Send me some photo's Micsta i will knock you one up when i get chance.StevePG and Redrobin have been pestering me to do there's  :grin:  :smug:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: 08micsta on 03 September 2008, 17:45
I will email you a few raunchy GTI ones later  :evil:

You can have some fun. You have not seen my previous sexy sigs  :drool:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Top Cat on 03 September 2008, 17:47
I will email you a few raunchy GTI ones later  :evil:

You can have some fun. You have not seen my previous sexy sigs  :drool:

                               :wink:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: SteveP on 03 September 2008, 20:40
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Thats brilliant!!! I agree its much better than the useless one I did for him  :evil:

Send me some photo's Micsta i will knock you one up when i get chance.StevePG and Redrobin have been pestering me to do there's  :grin:  :smug:

So come on then TC/Chuckles the Cat, what would you do for a signature pic for me?????  :grin: :grin:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Saint Steve on 03 September 2008, 20:50
Does anyone elses Dsg Ed30, seem very severe when sat stationary, Car wants to do at last 3-4 mph when i release the footbrake in drive,

whereas the 2 previous standard GTi dsg's ive had where alot less fierce.
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: illyun on 03 September 2008, 21:27
SHEEEEEEEEEEEET  I always go into neutral (being a cheapskate an all) when going downhill etc...  :sick: :sick: :sick:  :cry: :cry: :cry:   :embarassed:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Top Cat on 03 September 2008, 21:30
SHEEEEEEEEEEEET  I always go into neutral (being a cheapskate an all) when going downhill etc...  :sick: :sick: :sick:  :cry: :cry: :cry:   :embarassed:


How often have you done it  :sad: and is it DSG.
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: SteveP on 03 September 2008, 21:38
Does anyone elses Dsg Ed30, seem very severe when sat stationary, Car wants to do at last 3-4 mph when i release the footbrake in drive,

whereas the 2 previous standard GTi dsg's ive had where alot less fierce.

Yep mines the same, compared to a normal GTI and a new TT i have driven with DSG the pull is much stronger on the ED30.
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Top Cat on 03 September 2008, 21:47
Does anyone elses Dsg Ed30, seem very severe when sat stationary, Car wants to do at last 3-4 mph when i release the footbrake in drive,

whereas the 2 previous standard GTi dsg's ive had where alot less fierce.

Yep mines the same, compared to a normal GTI and a new TT i have driven with DSG the pull is much stronger on the ED30.

Its probably the memory in the DSG you too drive round like miss Daisey.  :laugh: I bet it's remembering your top speed on your last track day.  :wink:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: SteveP on 03 September 2008, 21:54
Does anyone elses Dsg Ed30, seem very severe when sat stationary, Car wants to do at last 3-4 mph when i release the footbrake in drive,

whereas the 2 previous standard GTi dsg's ive had where alot less fierce.

Yep mines the same, compared to a normal GTI and a new TT i have driven with DSG the pull is much stronger on the ED30.

Its probably the memory in the DSG you too drive round like miss Daisey.  :laugh: I bet it's remembering your top speed on your last track day.  :wink:

LOL, everyone know's the Grey (and Red) GTI's are much faster than 80's style Candy White one.  :wink: :laugh: :laugh:

Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: gazbutmk5gti on 03 September 2008, 22:30
grey ed30's were faster, white S3's are faster :laugh:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Hurdy on 04 September 2008, 01:53
grey ed30's were faster, white S3's are faster :laugh:

Silver one's stop the fastest :rolleyes:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Beefy McMoo on 04 September 2008, 13:02
I remember seeing somewhere that most modern engines use NO fuel when you are coasting in gear.  I.e going down hill in 6th gear but with foot off the loud pedal.  Where as if you knock the car into neutral going down hill the engine has to use fuel to avoid stalling.  Please feel free to ridicule me if I'm wrong.  :lipsrsealed:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: 08micsta on 04 September 2008, 13:03
Actually it sounds like a good theory  :cool:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Beefy McMoo on 04 September 2008, 13:05
Am I right TT am I, am I????  :grin:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: AlanD on 04 September 2008, 13:06
I remember seeing somewhere that most modern engines use NO fuel when you are coasting in gear.  I.e going down hill in 6th gear but with foot off the loud pedal.  Where as if you knock the car into neutral going down hill the engine has to use fuel to avoid stalling.  Please feel free to ridicule me if I'm wrong.  :lipsrsealed:

No, you are correct (sort of). The engine map will see that you do not have your foot on the pedal when in gear and use a very minimal ammount of fuel, to say it uses NO fuel is just plain silly lol (engine would cut out . . . . ). Where as if you leave it in N it will use x ammount of fuel to keep the revs at tick over.
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Beefy McMoo on 04 September 2008, 13:16
I remember seeing somewhere that most modern engines use NO fuel when you are coasting in gear.  I.e going down hill in 6th gear but with foot off the loud pedal.  Where as if you knock the car into neutral going down hill the engine has to use fuel to avoid stalling.  Please feel free to ridicule me if I'm wrong.  :lipsrsealed:

No, you are correct (sort of). The engine map will see that you do not have your foot on the pedal when in gear and use a very minimal ammount of fuel, to say it uses NO fuel is just plain silly lol (engine would cut out . . . . ). Where as if you leave it in N it will use x ammount of fuel to keep the revs at tick over.

Why would the engine cut out??  as you are in gear and the wheels are turning the engine you don't need fuel to keep it going?  Again probably wrong, but thats what I believed.
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 04 September 2008, 14:22
yea!!^^^ shouldnt be doing that

Cheers!  I assume the others with DSG slip it into N when at a temporary standstill?

It depends.  If I'm in a queue, inching forward, then stopping and so on, I just leave in D (or tip mode).  However, if I'm at red traffic lights, it is handbrake on and straight into neutral.

It's a bit of a pain that the car creeps forwards when in D/S/tiptronic and it didn't take me long to get sick of holding the foot brake on at lights.  Besides I think I read something in the manual about not holding her on the foot brake for long periods of time while at a standstill and in gear.

Yeah - but the creep is the same for conventional autos too.  But on conventional autos, they have a fluid flywheel/clutch, and could sit all day long in gear with the foot on the brake (providing the oil cooler is up to scratch).

Agreed, not good to keep your foot on the footbrake.  OK, its not particularly bad for low speed stop start around town stuff, but if you have just had a high speed stop for some red lights or sommat, then keeping the foot on the brake pedal can warp the brake discs, due to "heat-soak" from the pads.

edit: Excuse the questions but I have only ever owned cars with manual boxes before the GTI

We all gotta learn new things sometimes in our lives!  :wink:  :smiley:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 04 September 2008, 14:27
When you are holding it on the brake you are not damaging the clutch.

Wrong.  When the car is stationary, in gear (with the engine running), and the foot is on the brake - the clutch is being held on the "bite-point".  With the DSG having a wet clutch (running in oil), it is designed to cope with this for very small periods of time.  However, holding a stationary DSG in gear with the footbrake is exactly the same as holding a manual car, say on a hill without the handbrake, and just relying on slipping the clutch - not good!  (And a driving test failure, and also a very short clutch life).
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 04 September 2008, 14:31
Is it OK to do it in the manuals then?  :huh:

Do what in manuals - coasting, or holding a stationary car with the footbrake?

If it is the first, then absolutely not.  And I've no doubt it would be illegal too - you could be prosecuted for sommat like "failure to be in proper control of a motor vehicle".  Don't know exactly what part of the Road Traffic Act it comes under, but I'd guess at 6 points and a £2,500 fine!

If it was the latter, then see my reply of two posts earlier.
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 04 September 2008, 14:32
Is it OK to do it in the manuals then?  :huh:

Should be fine in a manual, over small distances, as there's oil pump to drive.

Huh - manual gearboxes don't have oil pumps in them, only DSGs, conventional autos, and CVTs!
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: joesgti on 04 September 2008, 14:43
Micsta i find that offensive it took me 1 hour with all my photo bucket skills to do that.  :laugh: :laugh:
Just to let you know how good my computer skills are here is a new one i did for Mr greenouse. But for some reason when i offered it to him he respectively declined.  :wink:


(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/tomashandmilly/greenhouse_2-1.jpg)  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


i really really lol'd  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Top Cat on 04 September 2008, 14:43
TT would it be worth doing a sticky for the doooz  and dont's in a DSG its a very expensive piece of kit and it seems only you who understands what is good for it. I personally think a lot of people on here would benefit from a few tips on how to use it properly. I know the manual tells us these thing's but it does'nt tell me why.  :nerd:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 04 September 2008, 14:48
I remember seeing somewhere that most modern engines use NO fuel when you are coasting in gear.  I.e going down hill in 6th gear but with foot off the loud pedal.  Where as if you knock the car into neutral going down hill the engine has to use fuel to avoid stalling.  Please feel free to ridicule me if I'm wrong.  :lipsrsealed:

No, you are correct (sort of). The engine map will see that you do not have your foot on the pedal when in gear and use a very minimal ammount of fuel, to say it uses NO fuel is just plain silly lol (engine would cut out . . . . ).

Nope.  In ALL modern fuel injected engines (petrol, and electronic fuel injection, before anyone gets pedantic), when the engine revolutions are higher than the expected load requirements from the ECU and thottle position sensor, the fuel delivery is dramatically reduced (and specifically on FSI engines, this is when they go into "Stratified", or lean-burn mode - except in the US, because of their shyte petrol  :rolleyes:).  However, following on from this in the same vein, when the engine revolutions are higher than the programmed tick-over/idle speed, and the throttle pedal is fully closed, then fuel delivery at the fuel injectors is completely cut-off.  Zilch, zippo, nill, zero fuel is injected.  :nerd:

What keeps the engine turning is down to simple physics - called kinetic energy.  Imagine pushing a beach ball off the top of the cliffs at Beachy Head, once its over the edge, does the ball stop falling when you stop pushing it?  :smug:

Where as if you leave it in N it will use x ammount of fuel to keep the revs at tick over.

Correct.
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 04 September 2008, 14:51
Micsta i find that offensive it took me 1 hour with all my photo bucket skills to do that.  :laugh: :laugh:
Just to let you know how good my computer skills are here is a new one i did for Mr greenouse. But for some reason when i offered it to him he respectively declined.  :wink:


(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/tomashandmilly/greenhouse_2-1.jpg)  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


i really really lol'd  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Me too - nearly fell off me fcukin zimmer frame.  TC, that gets my vote for "post of the day award".
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: AlanD on 04 September 2008, 14:51
Well done that man :)
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 04 September 2008, 14:56
TT would it be worth doing a sticky for the doooz  and dont's in a DSG its a very expensive piece of kit and it seems only you who understands what is good for it. I personally think a lot of people on here would benefit from a few tips on how to use it properly. I know the manual tells us these thing's but it does'nt tell me why.  :nerd:

OK.

Start a thread, and make some kind of "question and answer" kinda post, and I'll try to fill in the blanks.  It would be easier if you lot did it, because you know all the questions, if that makes sense!  :wink:

We will all have to behave very "un-Mk5-like" though.  (Keep the bloody thread on topic!)

Question for the day - has there ever been a thread in this Mk5 section which has truely remained on topic??  :evil:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Top Cat on 04 September 2008, 15:00
TT would it be worth doing a sticky for the doooz  and dont's in a DSG its a very expensive piece of kit and it seems only you who understands what is good for it. I personally think a lot of people on here would benefit from a few tips on how to use it properly. I know the manual tells us these thing's but it does'nt tell me why.  :nerd:

OK.

Start a thread, and make some kind of "question and answer" kinda post, and I'll try to fill in the blanks.  It would be easier if you lot did it, because you know all the questions, if that makes sense!  :wink:

We will all have to behave very "un-Mk5-like" though.  (Keep the bloody thread on topic!)

Question for the day - has there ever been a thread in this Mk5 section which has truely remained on topic??  :evil:

Yes when somebody asks about ice cream or woman.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: 08micsta on 04 September 2008, 15:02
Stop it Topcat!!

You gonna make this thread go off topic in a bad way!  :grin:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Hurdy on 04 September 2008, 15:27

Question for the day - has there ever been a thread in this Mk5 section which has truely remained on topic??  :evil:

Yes - the one's with no answers :grin:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: illyun on 07 September 2008, 17:37
SHEEEEEEEEEEEET  I always go into neutral (being a cheapskate an all) when going downhill etc...  :sick: :sick: :sick:  :cry: :cry: :cry:   :embarassed:


How often have you done it  :sad: and is it DSG.

Its dsg and i've done it a few times  :lipsrsealed:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Saint Steve on 07 September 2008, 17:39
SHEEEEEEEEEEEET  I always go into neutral (being a cheapskate an all) when going downhill etc...  :sick: :sick: :sick:  :cry: :cry: :cry:   :embarassed:


How often have you done it  :sad: and is it DSG.

Its dsg and i've done it a few times  :lipsrsealed:

oh well i wouldnt worry, theres good old vw warranty for another 2 years mate  :smiley:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: illyun on 07 September 2008, 17:42
SHEEEEEEEEEEEET  I always go into neutral (being a cheapskate an all) when going downhill etc...  :sick: :sick: :sick:  :cry: :cry: :cry:   :embarassed:


How often have you done it  :sad: and is it DSG.

Its dsg and i've done it a few times  :lipsrsealed:

oh well i wouldnt worry, theres good old vw warranty for another 2 years mate  :smiley:

Yeah.. suppose so.  But I feel like a right idiot  :sad:
Title: Re: DSG coasting
Post by: Top Cat on 07 September 2008, 19:22
SHEEEEEEEEEEEET  I always go into neutral (being a cheapskate an all) when going downhill etc...  :sick: :sick: :sick:  :cry: :cry: :cry:   :embarassed:


How often have you done it  :sad: and is it DSG.

Its dsg and i've done it a few times  :lipsrsealed:

oh well i wouldnt worry, theres good old vw warranty for another 2 years mate
  :smiley:

Yeah.. suppose so.  But I feel like a right idiot  :sad:

Hi illyun this is the reason i started the thread in the sticky section lots of people are unsure on the effects and problems caused by in-correct use of the DSG the statement above by phil might make you feel better but i personally would not have a clue what the answer would be. I cant see the dealer saying well there is excessive wear in this gearbox for some reason mr Illyun but dont worry that's why we give you a warranty.
Hopefully Mr TT will give us some definitive answer's.  :smiley: