GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: richy on 10 March 2008, 14:27
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Just found this interesting website:
http://www.rri.se/index.php?DN=29
It lists real world rolling road outputs for standard production cars.
For example, my car produces 140PS and 138 lb ft at the wheels:
http://www.rri.se/popup/performancegraphs.php?ChartsID=161
And a standard Golf GTI produces 195PS and 213 lb ft.
http://www.rri.se/popup/performancegraphs.php?ChartsID=605
For comparison, a new BMW M3 produces 387PS and 270 lb ft
http://www.rri.se/popup/performancegraphs.php?ChartsID=768
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An '05 Gti gives just 181 bhp
An '06 Gti pushes out 192bhp
Whilst an '07 Edition 30 gives another 27 bhp at 219 bhp, which is 222 PS, quite close to the claimed 230 PS
The torque figures (ftlbs) are:
05 Gti 204
06 Gti 213
07 Ed30 225
Much weaker figures for the edition 30 and the earlier car than I expected.
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seems pretty close for ED30 to me.
number is bhp @ wheels , Steve got 224 I think for his ED30 recently (same hub dyno)
whereas 230 quoted for ED30 is flywheel from VW.
So you get @ wheels value almost as high as @flywheel advertised by VW :smiley:
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I'm quite suprised at the difference between the 05 and 06 GTi cars.
Do you think that the difference is due to updates to the software or that there is such a degree of variation between individual cars due to the manufacturing process? ie every car will have a slight % difference straight from the factory. Or would it be more reasonable to assume that the older 05 car has lost some performance through age/higher milage?
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05 and 06 cars both had around 9k miles (cars mileag is provided in another tab)
maybe diff maps but I cant explain that size of difference either.
Looking at the graphs the 05 car looks very poor in the upper range , and looks to have well underperformed.
most of rev range looks fine 05 vs 06 , its just at top end it looks to deviate badly , maybe it had a problem?
06 car looks more normal imho
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Some folks say the ED30 produces 250+ bhp as standard. Whereas the Swedes tested it at 219 bhp, which sounds true to me.
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And look how S3 does not lose any power at all, and actually gains in torque!
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Also, check R32. It has nothing on E30, powerwise! :lipsrsealed:
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I'm not sure what point that website is trying to get across, they're comparing measured wheel power with manufacturer's quoted flywheel power, which will only confuse people who don't understand transmission losses :huh: Especially when 4wd comes into the equation.
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I have a 10 year old 2.8 Z3 that I tootle around in when the sun shines. I never thought that it produced the claimed 193 bhp. The 177 bhp at the wheels sounds spot on. (Makes up for the weedyness with a nice LSD).
If you own an '07 Audi RS4 it makes glum reading...
Claimed 413 bhp, measured 328 bhp
Claimed 317 ftlbs measured 270 ftlbs
If Audi are correct in their crankshaft value the transmission looses 85 bhp, ie 63 kW. 63 kW converted to heat is like having 63 granny style electric fires toasting away under the car.
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I'm not sure what point that website is trying to get across, they're comparing measured wheel power with manufacturer's quoted flywheel power, which will only confuse people who don't understand transmission losses :huh: Especially when 4wd comes into the equation.
What he said ^^^^^
Nick
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Funny how the AUDI S3 has zero loss whilst the RS4 looses 85 bhp.
It's a great website for debunking.
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I'm not sure what point that website is trying to get across, they're comparing measured wheel power with manufacturer's quoted flywheel power, which will only confuse people who don't understand transmission losses :huh: Especially when 4wd comes into the equation.
Indeed and its made even more complicated by the fact its a hub dyno
You can have @ the wheels from a normal brake dyno (includes losses to tyres , variations from slippage etc)
but in this case its @ the wheels (i.e. hubs) so the tyre losses/problems are removed , so the wheel figure should be greater.
Check out http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/ (http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/) and the technical articles.
Although remember for a hub dyno (no wheels) the calculations no longer hold!
S3 vs S4 , are they the same diff setup? , do they shift power differently? , was it measured at 4 hubs or 2 etc...
[In fact looking at site I can see it measured via all 4 wheels.]
[And the S3 looks to have only been run in 2wd mode , no rear pickup in picture I can see.]
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Do not overestimate the power of the.....ED30!
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I love these type of discussions, mainly due to the fact that they are based on readings that we have never seen, from companies who we don't know all the information about.
I have always gone by the reasoning that it is better to compare like with like on one day in a rolling road shootout, or on the standing qtr or track. It is the only way to debunk spurious claims and prove your cars outputs (and in certain cases your driving skills :evil:)
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I'm not sure what point that website is trying to get across, they're comparing measured wheel power with manufacturer's quoted flywheel power, which will only confuse people who don't understand transmission losses :huh: Especially when 4wd comes into the equation.
Indeed and its made even more complicated by the fact its a hub dyno
You can have @ the wheels from a normal brake dyno (includes losses to tyres , variations from slippage etc)
but in this case its @ the wheels (i.e. hubs) so the tyre losses/problems are removed , so the wheel figure should be greater.
Check out http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/ (http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/) and the technical articles.
Although remember for a hub dyno (no wheels) the calculations no longer hold!
S3 vs S4 , are they the same diff setup? , do they shift power differently? , was it measured at 4 hubs or 2 etc...
[In fact looking at site I can see it measured via all 4 wheels.]
[And the S3 looks to have only been run in 2wd mode , no rear pickup in picture I can see.]
S3 and S4 4WD set-ups are totally different, S3 has haldex, S4 has torsion set-up
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I love these type of discussions, mainly due to the fact that they are based on readings that we have never seen, from companies who we don't know all the information about.
I have always gone by the reasoning that it is better to compare like with like on one day in a rolling road shootout, or on the standing qtr or track. It is the only way to debunk spurious claims and prove your cars outputs (and in certain cases your driving skills :evil:)
the rototest bolts strait onto your hub, even the wheels they say can offect the output, weight, size, tire presure all offect it. the transmission is a roughly educated guess loss.
i got 224 at the hubs, which is only3bhp less than the 227 stated. so we know that at my flywheel it will be doing more, we know it loses more than 3bhp. still we can only add on the estimated guess of transmission loss to get our flywheel figure.
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The Swedish Rototest is well known agency (in Sweden, at least). All car magazines and shows in Sweden use Rototest's data. (How do I know? Because I lived in Sweden for 14 years, Stockholm is the place I call HOME....and the Nothern Venice - St.Petersburg)
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Also, check R32. It has nothing on E30, powerwise! :lipsrsealed:
The R32 does get alot faster with more miles on the clock. This becomes very noticable esp after the 5-6k mark.