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General => Car audio => Topic started by: wilson on 28 February 2007, 09:43
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Hello, I'm looking for a fair base range, without using a sub. What do I look for when buying speakers that tells me wether they are good bass speakers?
Thanks
Wilson
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Low end frequency responnse.
A good bass will get down to at least 40.
Most say something like 25 - 2500
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Hello, I'm looking for a fair base range, without using a sub. What do I look for when buying speakers that tells me wether they are good bass speakers?
Thanks
Wilson
If your wanting good bass I would always go for a sub if you are wanting to save space maybe look at a 8" sub
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Well yes a sub and amp are by far the best option but if you dont want to go that route then try some 6 x 9's. Most of them get down to 40.
Or if you can still get Kenwood 7 x 10's they get down to 30.
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I havent had any myself but these are suppose to be rather good
http://www.vibeaudio.co.uk/index.asp?page=p-qb69.html&header=p-qb69-h.html&footer=p-qb69-f.html
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Just because a speaker is rated at a given frequency, it doesn't mean it will be loud at that frquency, so don't rely on those quoted figure when buying speakers.
If you don't want a sub, 6.5 inch comps will drop lower (or be louder lower) that 5 1/4 comps. 6 x 9s also can be bassy, but will not be good for your sound stage (unless you get them in your front doors :grin:)
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My golf has had what was a fairly good system in it before without subs, its got an amp and crossovers built into a false back on the rear seat, its all been done properly with decent connections and all, the front speakers and dash tweeters are decent, but the 6x9's were knackered, so I replaced them with some old sony ones that I had laying around in my garage...
It just doesn't sound low enough now, nice clear mid range though. I'm not after a loud stereo that'll shake the car apart. I just like it to sound good. I have actually got a good 12" sub and amp in the garage, but I just dont want to have to use it !
I havent had any myself but these are suppose to be rather good
http://www.vibeaudio.co.uk/index.asp?page=p-qb69.html&header=p-qb69-h.html&footer=p-qb69-f.html
They certainly read well...! Has anybody tried these before?
Low end frequency responnse.
A good bass will get down to at least 40.
Most say something like 25 - 2500
Thanks Len, so the lower the first no. the better bass ?? the vibe ones that Uruk Hai has posted a link, say 30 - 25,000Hz, I take it that means they would be fairly low for a 6x9 ??
Thanks for all the helpful comments
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Just because a speaker is rated at a given frequency, it doesn't mean it will be loud at that frquency, so don't rely on those quoted figure when buying speakers.
If you don't want a sub, 6.5 inch comps will drop lower (or be louder lower) that 5 1/4 comps. 6 x 9s also can be bassy, but will not be good for your sound stage (unless you get them in your front doors :grin:)
What do you mean "sound stage" ? I'm not in with stereo lingo!!!! :embarassed:
I dont want to go messing and cutting things about, especially not doors, I could always pick up another shelf no probs though, its got a proper MDF weigh a tonne shelf in there at the moment with 6x9 holes cut it, it weighs so much its had uprated lifters on the boot,
So am I better getting a new shelf and getting 6.5 inch speakers, or stick with the already 6x9 holes that are there?
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Good 6.5 comps will only sound good in the doors, they are not intended for open use like on a parcel shelf.
Get some good 6 x 9's for the shelf.
As for the weight, and I havent done this myself yet but will do soon, if you have or know someone with a router then you can reduce the depth of the MDF over areas. This wont affect the strength but will reduce a lot of the weight.
I had an amp under mine along with the 6x9's.
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Will do, those vibe ones above ar 30 - 25,000Hz does that mean they would have quite a low bass sound?
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It means they are capable of reproducing that frequency, I doubt very much you have any music that low!
But remember what really makes bass is power and if you are not making those speakers work then they wont produce a deep sound.
If you have a 12" sub and amp in your garage I would fit it!
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Maybe its just the setting on the amp then. I'll go and get the details and post on here see what you think.
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Right, here we are
6x9's Sony XS8693
Max input - 220w
Rated Power 60w
Impendance 4ohm
(doesn't say freq)
Amp JBL GT1400
There are 3 group inputs and outputs
Outputs are -
Grp1 goes to the two crossovers and then to the front components
Grp2 feeds the 6x9's
Grp3 not used
Grp1 settings front components seem ok, so not going to mess with these.
Grp2 setting options are as follows.
- Bass EQ - on/off
- Mode - L/ST/L+R
- Crossover Speaker - F/L/H
- Gain - Max/Min
What do these settings mean, where should the gain be etc etc ???
I suppose the amp seems way to big for just 6x9's, but thats what was in the car so thats what I'm using !!
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/mawwam/100D1277.jpg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/mawwam/100D1278.jpg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/mawwam/100D1279.jpg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/mawwam/100D1281.jpg)
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Amp
Bass EQ = on
Mode = L+R
Crossover = no idea
Gain - is this like a volume knob? If so this will adjust the output to these channels and you will have to set this to how you want it.
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Gain - is this like a volume knob? If so this will adjust the output to these channels and you will have to set this to how you want it.
I thought the gain was more than just volume?
What does the L and ST stand for on Mode?
Thanks
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1st off, sound stage is the ability of a system to accurately reproduce the music as it was originally performed - I don't know about you, but when I go to see live music, I tend to face the direction the sound is coming from - hence the importance of well installed and set-up front speakers, and the reason that 6x9s aren't used by sound quality enthusiasts.
Human ears are very sensitive to higher frequencies, and good at locating the direction the sound is coming from - another reason to have your detail playing in front of you. Lower frequencies (those played by a sub) are not so easily located, so playing sub 100hz frequencies in the boot is not a problem, and won't upset your sound stage. By having full-range speakers behind you, you are destroying the stereo imaging of your music.
Now for your amp - it's a GTH400, and looks like a nice bit of kit. This may be of help to you:
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/CAR/Owner%27s%20Manual/GTH400%20om.pdf
It should help you get an idea of where your settings need to be. If you wish to use your 6x9s, and don't want a sub, you could always low pass them - just sent them the lower frequencies.
The gain controls are there to allow you to match the output of your headunit to your amp. You can either set them up the teccy way using an oscilloscope, or the loud way, using test tones. Or you could just set them at half way and hope for the best!
L stands for left only (poss for a sub input), ST for stereo, and L+R is probably for left and right combined into a mono signal - but that should all be in the manual. Hope that helps!
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Now for your amp - it's a GTH400, and looks like a nice bit of kit.
Heyho, thanks for taking the time to write all that and to find that manual, that explains everything. No wonder I couldn't find any details of the amp, I thought it was GT1400 :grin: :grin: :grin: thats cause its fairly scratched and worn off the amp... the whole system looks a good few years old, but seems to have been done properly, and not messed with !
Thanks
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Talking about sound stage and direction in a closed room with no other background noise is fine. But in a moving car with engine noise and wind/external noises is a farce!
All you can do is bounce sound around. Sitting on one side of the car means you cannot get stereo.
Its all a huge compromise.
Yes our ears are designed to receive sounds from in front of us. But why the upsurge of surrond sound?
To get the best from components they would have to be in front of us not down in the doors! We cant have them up on the dash and you still cant have stereo!
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All good comments, could be a good debate here. :cool:
If you cant get stereo why when certain tracks cut from left to right channels do you hear it fine? (not argueing because I dont have enough knowledge of this, just questioning!)
Has anyone seen the new type of surround sound you can get for your home cinema system? One long speaker housing sits with your tv and loads of small speakers that bounce sound around the room, I haven't heard one in action yet.
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To be able to hear true stereo you need to be in the centre of the left and right speakers.
Oh and most peoples hearing doesnt go down past 60 hertz!
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I havent had any myself but these are suppose to be rather good
http://www.vibeaudio.co.uk/index.asp?page=p-qb69.html&header=p-qb69-h.html&footer=p-qb69-f.html
with reference to these, i have had three sets, why three?? because the tweeters blow off a 200w rms amp, the rms rating of these is much higher i suspect because they state the back cone rms, not the tweeter, they sound excellent, for a while!
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To be able to hear true stereo you need to be in the center of the left and right speakers.
Oh and most peoples hearing doesn't go down past 60 hertz!
very true as far as the stereo comment, and the hearing range of humans too! hence why subs get their name (subsonic ( below audible sound) ) after about 60 Hz down it becomes a physical feeling rather than sound.
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and please check out my DB drag effort topic, on the audio board, may be on the second page now, leave any comments you want and feel free to ask me stuff!
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HEYHO WROTE: The gain controls are there to allow you to match the output of your headunit to your amp. You can either set them up the teccy way using an oscilloscope, or the loud way, using test tones. Or you could just set them at half way and hope for the best!
spot on!
use a program called audacity to create any test tones you need, its free.
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Tomm I should hope I did get the hearing thing right! One of my daughters is an Audioligist.
Any system is just a compromise as a car is a very hostile environment to reproduce sound in!
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Len, I'm in no postion to argue with an audiologist, but the last time I checked, the first (lowest) 14 keys on a piano produce a frequency of below 60hz, with the lowest being 27.5, and I'm pretty sure that the last time I had a tinkle (so to speak) I could clearly hear them all.
As for the stereo thing, yes, in car hifi is a compromise, but I can assure you that I get a very good stereo image in my mk2. Tweeter placement is one of the most important things to get right, because this is where most of the higher frequencies occur, and are most detecable from a directional point of view. People who take SQ installs very seriously often position the tweets half way up the A pillars.
Obviously, the seating position is not ideal, but again, you can compensate for this by using time alignment. The point I'm trying to make is that with well positioned front components, you will get a pretty good sound stage, because even though you are off centre, you are still sitting between the speakers. With rear shelf mounted speakers, you'll just get sound, with much of the detail lost before it gets to you.
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with reference to these, i have had three sets, why three?? because the tweeters blow off a 200w rms amp, the rms rating of these is much higher i suspect because they state the back cone rms, not the tweeter, they sound excellent, for a while!
So are these slightly different from the three sets you've had? are they a upgrade or newer model?
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Well I'm by no means an expert in anything I'm just talking from experiences and knowledge I've picked up along the way. I got into home HiFi over 30 years ago and learned about sound reproduction.
No way can you get decent stereo performance in a car! The experts state that for true stereo seperation the speakers must be at least 8 feet apart and you must be in the middle. This is not possible in any car.
As for the low frequency stuff I was basing my statement on industrial hearing tests I have had but I will check back with my daughter.
As I said whatever you do in a car is a compromise and our hearing is personal and subjective so all we can really do is set a budget, get what we can for that money and get a system that we like to listen to. I dont believe there are any hard and fast rules.
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perfect true stereo would be next to near impossible to reproduce, specially for everyone in the car, you get some kind of idea of it though! what on earth does an audologist do?! like study and help with peoples ears? there is no way a piano would produce anywhere near down to 30hz this feels like a punch in the back, there is no sound too it! my car is tuned pretty much for this frequency (the subs anyway!)
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with reference to these, i have had three sets, why three?? because the tweeters blow off a 200w rms amp, the rms rating of these is much higher i suspect because they state the back cone rms, not the tweeter, they sound excellent, for a while!
So are these slightly different from the three sets you've had? are they a upgrade or newer model?
these are mine: (http://a639.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/46/l_02e7cee4c2d316aecbd55f56ae10dece.jpg)
now you mention it and i look at the link clearly:
i remember my friend had these ones and they were brought out just after mine, the tweeter looks different (mine has like a trypod guard thing in the hole in with it), they have a hole for venting the tweeter in the back (where the magnet is) and some extra componants/wires where the crossover joins the tweeter (the red stickered bit.), i heared the newer ones, but only briefly, mine sounded good so if they follow suit that they may have fixed them now! they were sold to me (halfrauds) as 500w rms, i assumed they could handle a 200w rms amp, i guess they had some complaints and changed the design, thanks to fools like myself!
the other problem I had with them is similar to people who buy 13inch subs for a bit more rumbling, if you want to change them or need to (as i did!) its hard due to the irregular size, and now im stuck with a useless MDF shelf with square holes in it!
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@Tom: Wether you believe me or not, if you hit the first key on a piano, the note you produce WILL have a frquency of 27.5 hz - end of.
@Len: I agree with you that if you were choosing the ideal location for a hifi, the interior of a vehicle would not be high on the list! However, regarding the stereo, provided your left ear receives it's information from the left speakers/s, and your right ear from the right, you are listening to a stereo reproduction, regardless of path lengths, even if the stage is not ideal.
A compromise it will always be, but there are routes which can be taken to achieve a pretty good result when compared with just chucking a couple of 6x9s in the shelf.
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if you want to change them or need to (as i did!) its hard due to the irregular size, and now im stuck with a useless MDF shelf with square holes in it!
Very good point !!
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@Tom: Wether you believe me or not, if you hit the first key on a piano, the note you produce WILL have a frquency of 27.5 hz - end of.
cant be! more like 60 maybe slightly higher, it may resinate at that frequency but there is no way that is the frequency you would hear. it couldnt be done, a frequency of that depth would need a very sizeable driver, for you to be able to even feel it, thats why small speakers or tweeters cannot produce bass to this level, its sub bass, movement (although i know too well all sound is movement, but its a matter of perception)
i assume you are aware of tuning forks, use any bit of metal or better still an elastic band in the same way, knock it really hard and hold it tight so it resinates, stick it real close to your ear and you will hear a buzzing, but it needs to be very close to your ear.
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Ok, my understanding always was that the audible range for human hearing, not perception, but hearing, is approximately from 20hz - 20,000hz. I've double checked this, and can't find any information to the contrary.
What do you mean it may resonate at that frequency? It has to resonate at that frequency to produce a note of that pitch. It doesn't matter if it's a piano wire, bass guitar string, a sub or a tuning fork, resonating at say 30hz, will produce the same note. Sound waves in their simplest form are compressions and rarefactions in the air, caused by something resonating at a given frequency.
Audio waves of a frequency below that of human hearing are called infrasound, not sub bass. When you say that only a sizeable driver could produce that sort of frequency, I think what you mean is "reproduce" that frequency. A piano has no speakers, but does produce such notes, as does a bass guitar (30hz), and the lowest note produced by a musical instrument is the hornpipe(organ), which drops to 16hz! The reason for this is that a sub is 12 or maybe 15 inches across, is being asked to produce a note which was originally played by a string or pipe several feet long. The longer and/or thicker a string is, the lower the frquency it will produce when struck.
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produce, reproduce yeah. as for the things resinating yeah they should produce the note they resinate at but for you to hear the note something ( i dont know what, maybe the box, or whatever the string, ect . is in) must change for what you are saying to be true, which it must be but i dont get how, you must be stating the resinant frquency and for that frequency to be heared SOMETHING? must change. i didnt say it was called sub bass I was explaining the reason why they are called subs, sub sonic, below sound, super sonic, above sound. it may not be the only term for it but it the reason subs are named (maybe they should be called infrasound speakers or something!) . I totally see your point, why make it if you cant hear it, maybe i have never heared a piano or organ that can produce it, and maybe it does make a movement feeling for people but it cannot make a sound humans can hear, dogs and cats are very different but it is impossible to actually hear it because, im pretty sure its the bones (or maybe your ear drum or a receptor in your brain) that pick up the audio waves in your ear cannot resinate at that low a frequency, i dont know the exact range but i know its not that low. a perfect example is if you have some subs or no someone who has, make a 30hz tone with audacity or similar program 'listen' to the tone, doesnt matter really how loud, then stick your fingers in your ears, the percieved 'volume' doesnt change. you also cannot get 'earpiercing' bass, very low sub bass (30 hz down) is more similar to an earthquake. sub bass cannot really damage your hearing (unless its distorted) it will affect your heart and breathing first. I cant explain why instruments do as you say but i am sure you are right otherwise you wouldnt say, as am i about this, after a certain frequency it changes from bass ( or mid bass) to proper earthshaking bass (sub bass) where, if you could hear it at a level where normal bass or any other sound would blow your eardrums, sub bass wont, the amps in my car = about 300 w for the normal spks but over 1000w for the subs, and the subs really need more power to balance it (admittadly it takes more power to produce but), the decibel ratings for the normal speakers would be well below the subs, but the normal speakers 'sound' much louder. with 1000w of tweeter or normal speaker power that close to you im pretty sure your ears may never work again.
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I can't help thinking that we've veered of topic more than a little, but what the heck!
To put it simply, my understanding of what is or isn't sub bass is as follows:
20hz or lower = Infrasound - sound waves not audible to humans. (but elephants find it useful aparrently)
20hz to 90hz(ish) = Audible sub bass, which can also be felt at higher volumes.
90hz - 20,000hz, = The rest of the audible range - which obviously can be broken down in even more categories.
20,000hz + = Ultrasound (popular with cats, dogs, bats and dolphins etc.)
Subsonic = An aircraft travelling below the speed of sound (770mph) or a filter on an amplifier for cutting out frequencies below audible, to prevent damaging subs under certain conditions.
Supersonic = An aircraft travelling above the speed of sound.
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with 1000w of tweeter or normal speaker power that close to you im pretty sure your ears may never work again.
Has anyone seen, Its All Gone Pete Tong ? Love that film!
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^^^^^ Yeah great film! Also Harry on the Boat, but the book is far better!
Well I checked with my daughter and I was a bit out! We humans can only hear down to 50 Hz. ( I said 60 Hz)
Now neither of us are musical so cant say yey or nay about a piano key but if its 27Hz then you cant really hear it!
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Well I checked with my daughter and I was a bit out! We humans can only hear down to 50 Hz. ( I said 60 Hz)
Now neither of us are musical so cant say yey or nay about a piano key but if its 27Hz then you cant really hear it!
We'll just have to agree to disagree!!
It was my recollection from my schooldays, as 20 - 20,000 seemed to have stuck in my memory. I've checked exhaustively, in *real* books, and on the web, and I can't find any info to contradict it. These are the first couple of google hits:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_%28sense%29
http://www.bathspastringquartet.co.uk/string-quartet-weddings.html
And the piano scale: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies
That is all. :nerd:
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what happens in the pete tong film? (obviously not a whole film description! just in relation to ears popping?)
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Where can I find a BL00DY piano! :laugh:
Well seems we will have to disagree! She also said that they dont test below 500Hz which apparently is middle C on a piano.
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what happens in the pete tong film? (obviously not a whole film description! just in relation to ears popping?)
Its about a top Ibiza DJ, who goes deaf through so many years in the industry, he then learns to produce or mix music through feeling the beat. Good film, quite funny. One of these posts just reminded me of it ! :embarassed: