GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: mic on 18 January 2007, 18:06
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whats the 'safest' amount of boost to run in a standard 8v without blowing it up? im guessing something like 14psi just being silly but could it handle 2/3/4 ??
:D
mic
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Interesting question...
You need to tell us more about the modifications to the motor. My first two questions would be: Have you reduced compression? What are you using for management?
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havent done anything to anything :D
and wasnt goin to alter anything either - all standard
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Well you can't run any boost without a turbo mate :wink:
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yea i know ;) meant engine still be standard
regardless, question still stands
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I doubt there's going to be many people here to answer a question like that - not that you could really say for sure anyway. A lot depends on how well the conversion has been done etc. I would imagine you'd fairly happily get 200bhp - I wouldn't go any further than that with a FWD car.
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no any 'idea' is gonna be better than me gussing..... at least you experienced ones might have at least half a clue :D
im sure there be something out there on the market that'll tell me how much psi to run before blowing a gasket if i fiddle with it on, or worse.... or is there..... dunno, lets do it anyway
:D
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You would only be able to run about 7-8lbs max I would say. What engine management has your car got?
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standard digi....
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I think everyone's trying to ask you what engine management are you going to use with the turbo, as you can't run a turbo with the standard engine management, even if you leave the engine standard (which is a bad idea tbh, will more than likely just kill it)
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if you put a g60 block in it'll be better, plenty of people have turbo'd them when the superchargers give up.
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If you want to go crazy with the standard engine and blow it up with nothing uprated or capable of handling pressure, why don't you just fit NOS? Much cheaper way of blowing an old engine!
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ok we seem to have missed a few key words here
STANDARD
8V
PSI
question wasnt about management, which engine to use, and I didnt say anything about a turbo...
each engine comes out of a production line built as stock. each tuned for efficiency etc etc etc. as you know, these engines can be tweaked a little before any major mods.
im guessing that adding a LITTLE PSI wont do any harm, after all its only adjusting the standard factory settings..... make sence? yes, 20psi might be too much, but 2-4? thats all the question is, no more, no less
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No arguments here friend, just answering your questions as best we can. No one would really know how much boost you could put through a standard engine at a guess because I would've thought that most folks would use the G60 lump or uprate internals. How would you plan on controlling the amount of boost being put through? It's also a worry that (again at a guess) your engine will have seen the plus side of 100k, and will be stuck together with carbon build up, not sure pressuring it would be a good idea at all.
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sorry dude just edited that last post! i know its not an easy 'by the book' question but i only asking about a incy bit of boost, im not after an all-out turbo as some people may suggest!
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As a very loose rule of thumb a standard engine "should" hack up to 6 psi of forced induction. For how long though is the real question. It might hack 14psi...... for a week :grin:
I've no real experience with FI on VWs so I stand to be corrected but I have a lot of FI experience with Subarus. I tuned 2 of mine to over 375bhp which were both UK spec 208bhp standard.
The garage I worked for also did the first ever supercharger conversion to a n/a Subaru Impreza 2.0 Sport in the UK.
Mad conversion but it's what the owner wanted. That was 135bhp standard and we basically just bolted on a chargecooled supercharger using the standard ECU, injectors and standard block. It ran up to 9psi and did 189bhp on the dyno. The AFR were monitored closely of course, to make sure it didn't lean out and a knock detector was fitted to monitor det. The owner wanted to see exactly how far he could go on the standard lump and was quite prepared to blow it up. At 9psi he was maxing out the OEM injectors so it was left at that but it was a significant improvement over standard.
This was on a 4 year old car though with low mileage etc etc. so although this info is in no way relevant to your car it does give you some idea I suppose.
Also different engines will hack different things. It really is impossible to give you anything other than a ballpark figure.
Take 6psi as a benchmark. It MAY hack more but it MAY also grenade itself on less.
It's a bit like asking "if I'm 24 and start smoking, what's the most no. of fags I can smoke a day to make sure I live past 60." :grin: Who knows?
Hope that helps.
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Why don't you tell us where you're coming from with these questions - so far your question has been answered as well as you can possibly hope for - you asked what boost in psi can a standard 8v engine handle - we've all told you there's no real way of knowing. Having said that there's not a huge difference between a turboed engine and a n/a one so if you're deciding to go forced induction the difference between 6psi and 14 is not a whole lot.
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On a PB engine though you would be asking for trouble if you ran more about 7-8lbs. They are 10:1 comp ratio when they left the factory, if your head is coked up (which it probably will be) or the head has been skimmed, which on most cars it has been, then you will get some serious detonation if you used more boost than 7-8lbs as stated above.
Lets say you use a T3 turbo with a .48 exhaust housing, it will start producing boost at around 3000rpm on your motor. As the RPM rises your Digifant ignition will advance the timing more and more while the turbo is producing more and more boost and you will get serious detonation. You would probably be able to drive it for some time as VW engines are quite tough, but it really is not the best way of doing things.
You really would be better off investing in a G60 bottom end and a G60 ECU and loom. You will then be able to safely run up to about 1BAR boost safely and reliably. It should not cost you more than £3-500 for both.
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ok im debating a supercharger. i have no idea about management, or VW engines so before i start lookin into all that kind of thing and start pricing these G60 parts up i may as well see if a standard engine would be capable of running a small amount of boost.
im not gonna start to learn about management an that if i dont 'need' to. i dont wanna go pricing things up and work out a timescale/budget etc if i dont need to...
if its a simple 'should be ok to run 2-3psi ;)' then great, if its 'dont run any cos it'll blow' then fine, i know either way.
to be fair i bought a golf just to drive, i wasnt goin to play with it as such - main reason why i gave up on last project - i just want something i can turn the key and go. ive liked em for years but never got round to owning one till now! i dont mind changing the chip - as per my other thread - and simple things like that but thats about it
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Standard block (if in good condition) will take 6psi. Standard digifant ecu has no map sensor though... and if you're fitting a s/c you'll most likely be nicking bits off a G60 anyway.
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you'll most likely be nicking bits off a G60 anyway.
no......
:D
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If you change your mind I've got a G60 Rallye ECU you can have, not for free obviously :evil:
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just curious... how much?!
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If you want my opinion, (which you may not :laugh: ) I'd say you'd be 100 times better off getting a g60 lump. You mightn't like this because you already have a working engine and it seems more expensive. Even if you get the thing running you don't know whether it'll last 50k miles or 500, and you won't have to worry about lowering compression/upgrading fuel systems etc. You'll pay a premium for the g60 engine no doubt, and you might think retro-fitting stuff will work out cheaper, but I'd be surprised if it did - it's always the little things that end up costing the most.
If you decide to go this route, then you're budgeting make sure to work out what it'll cost you down to every last washer - and then multiply it by 1.5 and you'll be pretty close - that's what I did with the car in my sig and it still worked out more expensive! :grin:
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im thinkin: see how long engine lives with 2/3 psi..... if it dont blow up, great :D
if it goes pop its an excuse to upgrade ;)
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Can you seriously justify buying a turbo, manifold, downpipe, oil feed/drain, coolant feed/drain only to run 2/3lbs boost?
Just buy a G60 lump, digi1 ecu and loom and go from there. If you don't want to buy the g60 engine then just fit a spacer plate to lower the compression a little and fit g60 manangement to do fuel and spark for you. You will need a chip for the ecu which can be bought cheaply from Germany or the states.
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ive got to join in with the masses. with the expense you're going to go to just to run a t/b or s/c, you may aswell get a lump that is s/c or t/b'ed anyway. forced induction on a standard old engine is just asking for trouble, its designed to run on a vacuum, not to be pressurised.
after you've bought all the bits, it will cost the same amount as a normal fi engine anyway, to see about 20bhp gain, if that.
buy a proper lump and dont be silly.
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Can you seriously justify buying a turbo, manifold, downpipe, oil feed/drain, coolant feed/drain only to run 2/3lbs boost?
Just buy a G60 lump, digi1 ecu and loom and go from there. If you don't want to buy the g60 engine then just fit a spacer plate to lower the compression a little and fit g60 manangement to do fuel and spark for you. You will need a chip for the ecu which can be bought cheaply from Germany or the states.
im NOT gonna buy all that! whats 2/3lbs boost gonna be, 10-15ish bhp? bet i can get it for less than 30 quid! might not be a lot compared to what a G60 can do but 10bhp here an there will do for me!
im not in a position to spend big at the mo, believe me if i blow this engine i WILL look for something to replace it with but untill then i just want a few cheap mods to see this one thru an play with!
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Can I ask how you're planning on getting this 2 or 3 punds of boost into your engine without fitting a turbo or supercharger, which it seems you aren't going to?
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i show you when i done it and see if it works :laugh:
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You're not using one of those electric turbochargers, are you? lol :laugh:
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ok we seem to have missed a few key words here
STANDARD
8V
PSI
question wasnt about management, which engine to use, and I didnt say anything about a turbo...
each engine comes out of a production line built as stock. each tuned for efficiency etc etc etc. as you know, these engines can be tweaked a little before any major mods.
im guessing that adding a LITTLE PSI wont do any harm, after all its only adjusting the standard factory settings..... make sence? yes, 20psi might be too much, but 2-4? thats all the question is, no more, no less
not being funny but this is just an odd question and by people giving opinions on what you're trying to achieve is only based on what little info you have given...
i show you when i done it and see if it works :laugh:
and this is no better?! if you want cheap extra power there is loads to do to a golf without going down the 'boost' route, which will produce a probably more reliable, well thought out car compared to some "hmmm this should work" method of tuning. if you want people to help it might be a better idea to tell people what you are planning. the only answers people have given have been to help you come to some solutions as to the best way to handle boost in your engine.
Can you seriously justify buying a turbo, manifold, downpipe, oil feed/drain, coolant feed/drain only to run 2/3lbs boost?
Just buy a G60 lump, digi1 ecu and loom and go from there. If you don't want to buy the g60 engine then just fit a spacer plate to lower the compression a little and fit g60 manangement to do fuel and spark for you. You will need a chip for the ecu which can be bought cheaply from Germany or the states.
im NOT gonna buy all that! whats 2/3lbs boost gonna be, 10-15ish bhp? bet i can get it for less than 30 quid! might not be a lot compared to what a G60 can do but 10bhp here an there will do for me!
im not in a position to spend big at the mo, believe me if i blow this engine i WILL look for something to replace it with but untill then i just want a few cheap mods to see this one thru an play with!
if you're not in a position to spend big but are prepared to blow the engine it seems a bizarre way of working. you obviously have an idea in your head of what you want to do so if you're prepeared to blow the engine you might as well do it and then tell us all what you did! :tongue:
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i cant wait to see what hes going to come out with here....
(http://www.ukhairdressers.com/store/images/prih.jpg)
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What a f**king stupid thread. Being locked at 4pm as it is going no where.
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Please don't lock it! You can't! We have come so far! :cry:
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Yep, we all want to know. My money's on a tank of compressed air and a hose, bit like nitrous with out the nitrous.
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no its not gonna be an electric supercharger. or a hair dryer :D
behave with locking this thread! theres much worse out there which lead to no-where, at least this has a point (or at least entertaining to some)
it started as a simple question.... i didnt mention a turbo or s/c, you lot did! ok it might not be a simple one to answer but i didnt go on about management systems etc etc or using different engine parts! doesnt make a differnce how that psi gets in there, choose whatever means you want, either way will the engine take it?
if you're not in a position to spend big but are prepared to blow the engine it seems a bizarre way of working. you obviously have an idea in your head of what you want to do so if you're prepeared to blow the engine you might as well do it and then tell us all what you did! :tongue:
ive spent the last few years playing with minis. ive got a project sat in the garage forsale as ive had enough and cant be bothered to thow more money at it, for the money i want to spend and for the end result it aint gonna be worth it, not including the arguments it causes at home an its not like its a practical family car. so i said i sell it an buy something bigger to get me from A - B. hence buying a golf. now, i dont wanna spend lots of money on it if i dont have to.... granted its quicker than any mini ive owned and its a better drive than the wifes zafira but if i can find a few cheap bolt-on mods then so be it hence not in a position to spend big. however, if the engine blows up ;) its an excuse to upgrade. this way it aint gonna cause hassle at home over 'another' project car, if you NEED money for a replacement its always eaiser to find than 'just fancying a new engine'.
i shall tell you all what i did and how it goes (unless this f**kin stupid thread gets locked) with photos and a video if you really want
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Strange how a bit of encouragement can get some answers isn't it. Now why didn't you just put this in the first or second page.
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cos i didnt realise i had to give a life story just to ask a question!
i shouldnt have to justify myself to ANYONE, specially a load of strangers in a public forum....
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it started as a simple question.... i didnt mention a turbo or s/c, you lot did! ok it might not be a simple one to answer but i didnt go on about management systems etc etc or using different engine parts! doesnt make a differnce how that psi gets in there, choose whatever means you want, either way will the engine take it?
well it was a simple question and as you said, not a simple one to answer, hence people giving opinions not knowing what you're trying to achieve...now we know you have some sort of plan it might make more sense.
cos i didnt realise i had to give a life story just to ask a question!
i shouldnt have to justify myself to ANYONE, specially a load of strangers in a public forum....
no you don't have to justify yourself but if you want help it also helps to give a bit of background, thus getting the answers you want other than some random opinions.
oh yeah and its the strangers on a public forum that you are asking for help from and who have tried to help you so just because slick is being stroppy no need for you to get all defensive!
i'm genuinely intrigued to know what you've got planned so keep us up to date. i'm just saying sometimes you have to give a bit before you recieve a bit..............