GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: Robo999 on 13 May 2018, 19:53
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Hi guys. Now the usual question.. :whistle: what sort of power have people been seeing from stage 1 maps and who were they with? More power is now needed getting bored :evil:
Also what power and torque have people noticed the manual clitch starts to get grumpy at? :laugh:
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Very happy with my REVO stage 1 and no clutch issues so far. Mapped at 3 weeks old and 800 miles, now
done 9k...
https://www.onlyrevo.com/product-details/software/volkswagen/golf-vii/294/stage-1 (https://www.onlyrevo.com/product-details/software/volkswagen/golf-vii/294/stage-1)
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360 to 370bhp and 480 to 510 Nm are the typical stage 1 figures for all off-the-shelf tunes on these engines (exactly the same as on the Cupra) which are already clutch slipping figures for the manual cars. According to reports from GTIs, Cupras and Rs that share the same gearbox when exactly this will become apparent can be anything from 5 to 30K and very much depending on the type of use. Low torque files will also help postponing the issues but eventually it's a known weakness of the stock clutch even on stage 1 standard GTIs.
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Think il start looking at a clutch 1st then. Looks like sachs is the way. :rolleyes:
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I think i'd go forward keeping in mind it will probably be a cost down the road rather than start from it, rwleigh's car seems to be fine 8k in.
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Think il start looking at a clutch 1st then. Looks like sachs is the way. :rolleyes:
If you're going to remap, i'd get the new clutch in now, that way you won't be paying for a new clutch and a new flywheel, when slipping causes heat damage on the flywheel. I'd say slip is inevitable on a remap, it's not up to the job on stock output, let alone putting the torque up 20%.
My R is totally stock, and it has briefly slipped twice, both cold winter days (-2C and 0C), putting my foot down a little in 4th at 40mph. You might get away with it on a remap in the Summer months, but the Winter will show your clutch up.
If I decide i'm keeping mine for the long haul (it is 3 years old this month, and I bought the 5 year warranty), i'll be looking to get a Sachs organic clutch the next time it slips, before the flywheel is goosed.
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There seems to be a lot of R’s struggling on standard clutches.
I’ve held off fitting my JB1 due to clutch concerns.
But having said that I’d still go for a map before upgrading the clutch.
Probably a low torque map and try and drive around revs that’ll upset the clutch at first.
Then if the clutch gave up the ghost further down the line I’d go for a Sachs and then return to the tuner to get a higher torque map put on.
That way, once the clutch and full fat map were added, you’d get yet another lease of life and feel like you’d got better value out of the new clutch as you’d have more torque too. Possibly feeling like you’d had a stage 2 map.
Once you’ve upgraded the clutch a stage 2 could actually be next in line.
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I must admit, I rarely use 4th to accelerate (usually only to drive in slow traffic to maintain 25-30mph), if I did routinely do what I did when it slipped then maybe i'd have seen the slip a lot sooner than 23k miles. Usually cruise in 6th from 40mph and up, but drop to 3rd for a brief spurt of hard acceleration rather than relying on torque. Due to the lower temps, I dropped to 4th rather than 3rd.
Avoid driving on the torque if you do remap.
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I wouldn't want to be driving around torque or avoiding certain conditions just because of the clutch. If my car was remapped I'd want to just get in and drive and enjoy what I'd paid for so if that means a replacement clutch then that's what I'd be replacing first.
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I agree mcdaddy. Dont see the point in the map if your driving round avoiding the whole point of the map.
Anybody else make clutches for a clubsport other than sachs? And does it use an r clutch or are they different?
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I agree mcdaddy. Dont see the point in the map if your driving round avoiding the whole point of the map.
Anybody else make clutches for a clubsport other than sachs? And does it use an r clutch or are they different?
I never drive around the torque! I just get in and drive it. That said, i fully expect to need a new clutch sooner rather than later if I keep the car long term. I knew and accepted this when I had it mapped and don't worry about it. There are many clutch kits available for the MK7, such as South Bend, DKM and Sachs but in the UK Sachs seems to be the one to fit.
There looks like there is a slight difference between the GTI and R clutch kits looking at this...
https://www.awesomegti.com/shop-by-brand/sachs-performance/?_bc_fsnf=1&model=Golf+Mk7 (https://www.awesomegti.com/shop-by-brand/sachs-performance/?_bc_fsnf=1&model=Golf+Mk7)
Maybe the CS one is the same as the R though going by the price...
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Yeah ive been looking but all that seems to pop up is sachs. Il have to look a little deeper. Id heard that the clutches were weak but wasnt sure at which point they got mardy. :undecided: shouldve bought a dsg :laugh:
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I went dsg on the R for the reason of the fragility of stock clutches and I new I would modify it.
Upgraded clutches are fine, I have ran a Sachs on a Scirocco and a Helix on a Mk5 GTI, the reason I went Helix was it was not as heavy on the pedal as the Sachs which was mildly irritating on a 20K a year mileage
Depends how you drive as to how quickly they slip and some mappers limit torque in lower gears
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I went dsg on the R for the reason of the fragility of stock clutches and I new I would modify it.
Same here. Plus I've grown to really like the DSG anyway so...
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Depends how you drive as to how quickly they slip and some mappers limit torque in lower gears
REVO do this... Maybe why mine is fine so far?
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How does a remap affect the overboost?
Is it 265hp +20% say all the time or is overboost still there, so 265hp+20% and overboost of 290hp+20%?
Sorry if its a silly question. :wink:
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How does a remap affect the overboost?
Is it 265hp +20% say all the time or is overboost still there, so 265hp+20% and overboost of 290hp+20%?
Sorry if its a silly question. :wink:
Most tunes completely remove it, so 290 + ~20% ~360-370bhp all the time (which is why some tuners falsely advertise 100bhp gains) It maybe be called whatever, but in reality there is no 10" overboost feature in the sense that you are asking more from the engine. Rather, a permanent underboost to 265ps with the 10" WOT exceptions where it actually runs the same, stock boost levels as the Cupra and the R (same engine). It is all VW marketing BS to differentiate models and make sure one (CS) does not tread too much on the toes of the other (R).
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I wouldn't want to be driving around torque or avoiding certain conditions just because of the clutch. If my car was remapped I'd want to just get in and drive and enjoy what I'd paid for so if that means a replacement clutch then that's what I'd be replacing first.
Unfortunately it's not just the clutch that wears if you let the engine pull from low revs in a high gear with higher boost than standard. This type driving will kill the clutch in a standard R never mind a modified one but once extra boost is dialled in it puts wear on a lot more components in the drivetrain.
The high boost at around 2000rpm in an ED40/R or about 1500rpm in a GTI when modified isn't good for the drivetrain as a whole so you do really need to drive around this a little when modified. I've had modified turbo cars from various mappers since the late 90's and it's around the initial peak boost that you get the problems.
DSG cars will snick down a gear or two so they can get around this, it's programmed in from VW. DSG cars do get clutch slip too, just less of it and the DSG can be mapped to increase clamping force.
It's a shame that the best part of a remapped engine - that low down torque in high gears - can't be used too often in a modified ED40/R manual without an upgraded clutch. Or the most useable feature of a remapped engine should I say. To some the higher peak power is the be all and end all.
Smoothness is the key, no sudden snapping open of the accelerator at peak boost, just build it smoothly.
Keep in mind the turbo and crank are things that spin, and things that spin like to increase speed progressively!
I ran the JB1 on my R (manual) for about a year, maybe a bit longer (albeit low mileage) and didn't suffer any clutch slip.
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I wouldn't want to be driving around torque or avoiding certain conditions just because of the clutch. If my car was remapped I'd want to just get in and drive and enjoy what I'd paid for so if that means a replacement clutch then that's what I'd be replacing first.
Unfortunately it's not just the clutch that wears if you let the engine pull from low revs in a high gear with higher boost than standard. This type driving will kill the clutch in a standard R never mind a modified one but once extra boost is dialled in it puts wear on a lot more components in the drivetrain.
The high boost at around 2000rpm in an ED40/R or about 1500rpm in a GTI when modified isn't good for the drivetrain as a whole so you do really need to drive around this a little when modified. I've had modified turbo cars from various mappers since the late 90's and it's around the initial peak boost that you get the problems.
DSG cars will snick down a gear or two so they can get around this, it's programmed in from VW. DSG cars do get clutch slip too, just less of it and the DSG can be mapped to increase clamping force.
It's a shame that the best part of a remapped engine - that low down torque in high gears - can't be used too often in a modified ED40/R manual without an upgraded clutch. Or the most useable feature of a remapped engine should I say. To some the higher peak power is the be all and end all.
Smoothness is the key, no sudden snapping open of the accelerator at peak boost, just build it smoothly.
Keep in mind the turbo and crank are things that spin, and things that spin like to increase speed progressively!
I ran the JB1 on my R (manual) for about a year, maybe a bit longer (albeit low mileage) and didn't suffer any clutch slip.
+1
Avoiding driving on the torque in remapped cars - esp. turbo engines that see so big torque gains from a simple remap - is good practice in general. Your turbo amongst other drive-train components will thank you for that.
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Hi scanesare,
Interesting, thanks for the info... its a lot of power for a FWD! Is yours mapped?
Does the power meter thing show the full remapped amount? Mine doesn't seem to show the 'overboost' only the max 'underboosted' amount at least that's what I think, its hard to watch and watch the road!
;-)
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Hi scanesare,
Interesting, thanks for the info... its a lot of power for a FWD! Is yours mapped?
Does the power meter thing show the full remapped amount? Mine doesn't seem to show the 'overboost' only the max 'underboosted' amount at least that's what I think, its hard to watch and watch the road!
;-)
Well, you need to think how you are going to put it down in 2nd for sure, much better in 3rd with good tires. It's more about the in-gear acceleration above 40mph and the extra torque rather than standing starts. That been said I did 5.2" 0-60 with the 4S tires without trying which is a nice improvement over stock, but still slower than a stock R :grin:
Mine's been through a few tuning states, Jb1, Jb4, ECU flash and possibly another flash in the future as I'm a bit particular about how my car makes the extra power... Haven't noticed the power meter at all to be honest, think it's too much of a gimmick trying to calculate power like that but I'll give it a check out of curiosity. The boost gauge on the other hand reads the charge pressure from the ECU directly and you can see it showing figures of 2.6bar when flashed as opposed to stock 2.1-2.2. (Figures include ~1bar atmospheric)