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Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: Sootchucker on 17 July 2015, 07:44
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Hi all, bit of a marathon this so bear with me.
I have a bit of a dileema which I would like to share with you all for your input / comments. A few months ago I was toying with the idea of keeping my 2 year old GTD when it's PCP finished next year, and just paying off the balance when due (we have the money sat in one of our accounts, so no need for a loan). Now for reference, my GTD (touch wood), has been bullet proof, not one single problem (no rattling suspension, no electrical gremlins, no rear spoiler blade issues etc), so I'm almost loath to get rid in case I buy into problem on a new car (this one was obviously built correctly).
I was all set to do this, then I was talking to a mechanic family member of mine who said with these modern very high tech cars, he wouldn't want to own one out of warranty (especially with the expensive DSG gearbox), and that in my position, he would get a new car and enter a new PCP. Now I know that's not exactly a true reflection of modern cars, and like a great many other brands, VW's can, and do go on for many years with faultless service, so long as they are serviced and looked after properly.
So, that being the case, I started to look into extended and third party warranties (for peace of mind). Then all of a sudden, I got a call yesterday from a dealer I know well (about 25 miles away), who had quoted the last 4 VW's we purchased and missed out on them all due to purely price. Now it's a great little dealership (not one of the bigger ones), and it is in fact where we have our VW's serviced (not at the supplying dealer as their service department is shocking).
When I mentioned to him that it was always price that they failed on, he said to me he knew, but that they had just had a £1m facelift (to bring the dealership in-line with VW's new image), and that the new targets they had were quite stiff, and it was more after shifting numbers of cars. I told him I would be using online brokers like Carlow, Drive the deal and Orange wheels, and it was those sort of prices (or very near) I would be looking at. To my surprise he said they were well aware of online brokers prices, and that in his opinion to win our future business (we have now owned 8 new VW's), they would get very close to those prices.
So I have decided to give them a try and started speccing a new car on one of the broker sites to get an idea on price.. Problem 1 - I'm not sure if I should go for another GTD (which I love and am really used to the 45-60mpg), or a GTI ? Not had a petrol in a good few years, but love driving the wife's Polo Blue GT. Love the sound, the smoothness and the near instant warm up in winter. Also, obviously the GTI is a good bit quicker than the GTD, however it's £500 is more expensive as well (countered by the fact that VW finance are contributing £1250 to GTI's but not GTD's). However (no offence meant here) I hate the GTI alloys, so would have to spend nearly a grand on the 19" Santiago's (which look lovely) - I'm re-speccing Adaptive Chassis anyways again. My thinking is that for my limited annual mileage, the 10-15mpg of so hit, won't in the long run cost a fortune per month ?
However when speccing we now have the new MIB II head units to contend with. When I purchased my GTD I went with Nav Pro after reading lots of stuff on online connectivity, google maps etc, only to be disappointed when it arrived to find out that stuff was only available abroad when specced with the Premium phone pack (with the additional SIM), which we didn't (and as far as I'm aware) still don't get in the UK. Now whilst the 8" Screen looks great in the dash, I've seen the new 6.5" Screen in the new Polo and it didn't look half bad. I obviously wouldn't pay nearly £1800 again for the Nav pro, but I see now that as part of tech pack, it's only about £700 more than the standard nav (if selecting Dynaudio on the standard Nav - which I would). Question is, apart from the HDD built into the Nav Pro, is there any real funcationality difference between the 2 units. I.e. do they both have App Connect (Apple Car play, Android Auto and Mirrorlink), as well as the VW Car Net "Guide and Inform" (on line fuel, parking, weather etc), or is that only available with the Pro Nav ?
So in summary, I guess 3 questions.
1. Would you change just because the car would be 3 years old and out of warranty ?
2. GTD or GTI for doing about 8k miles per year
3. MIB II 6.5" Standard Nav or Still the 8" Pro unit.
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3. MIB II 6.5" Standard Nav - you'd need to spec App-Connect as an £100 option.
MIB II 8" Pro Nav - App-Connect included in the Tech pack price.
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Just to throw a spanner in the works, have you looked at the R?
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Love the R, however I think that when I spec the Pretoria alloys (really dislike the standard ones), then add the missing tech that I have on the GTD such as Winter pack, Nav, DCC, Keyless, rear camera etc, the price combined with the extra fuel costs would make it prohibitive for me.
Whilst I know a lot of you will say you don't need all the toys above on an R, the performance, handling and noise are the only toys you need (and they all come as standard), in all honesty, I don't think I could trade all the added creature comforts I have on the GTD, just for the extra performance. Also looks wise I personally prefer the front end of the GTI / GTD's models with the fog lights - the R at the front looks (dare I say) a bit bland (heads for cover) :laugh: Do absolutely love Lapis Blue though !
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Not sure why u ever got a diesel if you do such few miles?
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Is it a GTI PP you are thinking? In your position I'd go GTI with your chosen wheels. Taking into account your mileage, and surely another GTD will just be too similar (even though you've loved your current one)? If you need to claw back some of the cost of the 19s, spec the 6.5" starndard nav plus the £100 App connect.
It kind of sounds like you have made up your mind anyway.
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Love the R, however I think that when I spec the Pretoria alloys (really dislike the standard ones), then add the missing tech that I have on the GTD such as Winter pack, Nav, DCC, Keyless, rear camera etc, the price combined with the extra fuel costs would make it prohibitive for me.
Whilst I know a lot of you will say you don't need all the toys above on an R, the performance, handling and noise are the only toys you need (and they all come as standard), in all honesty, I don't think I could trade all the added creature comforts I have on the GTD, just for the extra performance. Also looks wise I personally prefer the front end of the GTI / GTD's models with the fog lights - the R at the front looks (dare I say) a bit bland (heads for cover) :laugh: Do absolutely love Lapis Blue though !
No I completely agree with the look of the front end, the R looks bland unless you know what to look for, which of course unless your on this forum you don't lol.
I had a GTI previous to the R and it's a great car, the tramping issue and poor traction in the wet pushed me over the edge to an R, but no way I would get a basic spec R. Mine has prets, DCC, keyless, winter pack and dynaudio and it bugs me it doesn't have nav so understand the need for the toys
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I'd stick with your current car. Granted, you take a gamble with a car out of warranty, but even the cost of a replacement gearbox will be a lot less than the money you would pay out to drive around in a new car. My Passats DSG has been faultless in the 52,000 miles it's done so far. It's nearly 4 years old now and I've no concerns about keeping it a good while longer.
It is nice to change cars, but going from one Golf 7 to another, I think you'd soon loose that new car feeling, despite it having a different engine and having more power.
These PCP deals are pushed by manufacturers to give people a decision to make at the end of the term. Most people will happily carry on paying similar monthly payments that they have got used to and get a new car, but why pay out each month when you don't really have to?
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Also, obviously the GTI is a good bit quicker than the GTD,
If the traffic light grand prix is your kind of thing :whistle: Once moving I wouldn't say its a "Good bit quicker"
I think the fact the changes from build week 22 with Nav, Winter pack and Keyless being added plus VW contribution would sway it for me.
If I had that kind of cash lying about in an account I think I'd rather it stayed there than plough it into a car, plus for minimal outlay you could probably move to a new car with no worry about repair work. Factor in if you did go back to a broker, you would have the hassle of getting rid of yours. If this dealer is genuinely going to come close to a brokers price with a reasonable trade in similar to what you'd get with just an average discount then that is a bonus. Just be wary of what you are given as price to change.
I had a dealer phone me when I had the mk6 promising the earth and thy couldn't deliver their promise.
My worry about stopping monthly payments is when it comes to changing the car, where do you suddenly find £200 - £400 again unless you can be really controlled and continue to stick it away each month.
One other thing, is it confirmed the UK don't get the SIM slot? Otherwise (I've said this once or twice before :whistle:) how would you get online and access the services, fuel, parking, news weather etc, if you had an iPhone?
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My worry about stopping monthly payments is when it comes to changing the car, where do you suddenly find £200 - £400 again unless you can be really controlled and continue to stick it away each month.
Use it to go towards your mortgage if you still have one. It will be much more beneficial in the long run.
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Use it to go towards your mortgage if you still have one. It will be much more beneficial in the long run.
Far too sensible for me Dubber :laugh: and its the long run I have problems with :grin:
I know its good advice but probably because you don't actually see or feel any benefit other than when your mortgage is paid off earlier. I'd rather have a new experience now. Who knows what's round the corner. Aged 46 I've seen too many folk roundabout my age die. As long as I can afford both, thats the main thing for me.
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Sootchucker: It's always a bit of a lottery when keeping a car out of warranty, but VWs seem to be at their least reliable when under warranty. Apart from suspension issues as the car ages, things seem to fail on VWs early on, most likely from manufacturing defects on the parts that wasn't apparent at the time of build. With all the issues i've had on 7 VWs prior to the R, they've always happened within the first year of ownership.
My had has ran 2 performance TDI Golfs for a lot of miles without issue and they were both DSGs.
One was a Maltese import MK4 GT 1.9TDI 130 DSG from Carshock, ran for 130k miles.
The other was his last car, a MK5 GT 170TDI, ran for 123k miles, around 70k miles of it with a TDI-Tuning box. Neither car missed a beat, the MK5 had a recall on the injectors, they were replaced at 110k miles at no cost and the car saw an improvement in running.
I paid for the 5 year warranty on my R - as much for making it a more attractive proposition on a private sale if I chopped it in at 2 or 3 years old as it was for the reassurance should I keep it that long.
IMO, you shouldn't chop in your GTD for another. The GTI is marginally quicker than the GTD once rolling, the GTD is marginally quicker than a GTI when you add a DTUK box (worthwhile upgrade if you keep it!) and the power is far more accessible (you don't have to milk it on the upper end of teh rev range all the time to change pace). If you want something radically different, given your mileage then i'd get the R - confidence of no tramping is a good thing! If it wasn't for my mileage doubling with teh new job i'd have no regrets with the R at all. Driving the new A1 TDI half the time to work will help lessen that blow - getting a new job that I like and doesn't involve me going through the tolled Tyne tunnel would be the icing on the cake.
Going heavy on the extras will always hurt when you trade in, never felt the need to add extras to the GTD, and the R only got Prets because i'm not a fan of the Cadiz. The Pro unit is one hell of an extravagance given its price (will add almost £45 a month to a ypical 36 month PCP on the assumption it retains 20% of its purchase price if it's still around £1740).
3 options I would consider in your shoes:-
1. Keep the GTD as is, wait until the MK8 is out and trade in or (even better) sell privately.
2. Keep the GTD, add a DTUK box, new tyres (not Flintstones) to prevent tramping (or at least minimise it) and have GTI beating performance once rolling without the mpg penalty.
3. Go the whole hog and get an R for an extra 5mpg thirst over the GTI.
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Not sure why u ever got a diesel if you do such few miles?
Because when I ordered it, I was panning on doing around 15k miles per year in it, then I was promoted at work, and my mileage drooped considerably. And also as it was my money and I didn't need to justify my choice :grin:
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My worry about stopping monthly payments is when it comes to changing the car, where do you suddenly find £200 - £400 again unless you can be really controlled and continue to stick it away each month.
Use it to go towards your mortgage if you still have one. It will be much more beneficial in the long run.
Very sensible Dubber but luckily for me, only 5 months left of the mortgage - will be done by the end of this year for good - yippee :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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MH, very considered and concise answer as we have all come to expect from you :smiley: I like the idea of waiting until the MK8 arrives, but that would involve me paying off the GTD anyway, as (AFAIK), we won't see any performance versions of the MK8 until at least late 2017 or early 2018 ?
As I said, it's just an exercise at the moment in viability and as p3asa said, it's all about the total cost to change i.e. not just the price of said replacement vehicle but also the part ex price, and that's what I don't know at the moment.
The other fly in ointment, is when I spec a GTD to the same as mine is currently on the configurator, (as near as I can), the optional final payment is over £1k less than mine was (at just over £14k). So a) what effect will that have on my PX price (i.e. will it be a lot less) and b) I guess that will push payment (as I'm financing more of the car) up as VW finance will only allow a max of 30% deposit ?
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MH, very considered and concise answer as we have all come to expect from you :smiley: I like the idea of waiting until the MK8 arrives, but that would involve me paying off the GTD anyway, as (AFAIK), we won't see any performance versions of the MK8 until at least late 2017 or early 2018 ?
As I said, it's just an exercise at the moment in viability and as p3asa said, it's all about the total cost to change i.e. not just the price of said replacement vehicle but also the part ex price, and that's what I don't know at the moment.
The other fly in ointment, is when I spec a GTD to the same as mine is currently on the configurator, (as near as I can), the optional final payment is over £1k less than mine was (at just over £14k). So a) what effect will that have on my PX price (i.e. will it be a lot less) and b) I guess that will push payment (as I'm financing more of the car) up as VW finance will only allow a max of 30% deposit ?
I have a day off work today, the R is in getting the ACC recalibrated and the poorly placed black spoiler trims redone, so right now i'm on my computer with GoT Series 1 on in the background, just updated my CV and will be on to a few Scientific agencies to see what permanent opportunities they have or think might be coming through soon.
For you, the lower current GFV might mean that you end up with less equity in yours over and above the GFV than you're used to. When PCPing, i've been used to getting £1500 more than GFV in p/x. If the GFV for new orders has dropped by a grand, you might end up getting just £500 more than GFV (not taking into account options you have had). It definitely makes no sense for you to chop in a GTD for another - especially considering you like your options. If you are intent on a change, I would be trying for a better price in a private sale. You will likely be offered £3500 less than used sticker price for yours if you get a broker sized discount, on a private sale you should be able to better that by £1500. You are right though, on another PCP with the new (lower) GFV, your monthlies are likely to be up by about £32 a month if the price you pay for your new one is the same as the old one.
Looking into the A1 for finance (to get the deposit contribution and pay within 14 days to retain it) - you're allowed to put up to 50% deposit down with Audi finance, strange that VW only allow 30%.
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Personally, in direct answer to your questions:
1. Change the car. I had a 3yr old Passat CC just out of warranty and it was an utter dog. I know I got unlucky and I had some bad luck but I wouldn't want to risk a VW out of warranty again.
2. Go for a GTI. I did a 300 mile motorway trip yesterday and averaged 44.8mpg in mine. Knocking about I see 36-38mpg regularly. When giving it a punt I see 25-27mpg. I do 20k per year and still don't really see a big benefit with diesel. The petrol engine is wonderful too as I'm sure you're very aware of!
3. Standard Nav. Yes, the bigger screen does look good but I have the standard nav in mine and never yearned for a bigger screen.
Of course, the other thing to consider is that you paid for Winter Pack and Keyless a couple of years ago and you now get those as standard.
Best of luck!
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3. Standard Nav. Yes, the bigger screen does look good but I have the standard nav in mine and never yearned for a bigger screen.
As an extra bonus, the new MIB 2 screen is far far superior to the old standard screen Nav. It makes it very difficult to justify the outlay for Pro Nav now imo.
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I'd just extend your VW warranty and keep existing car.
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Personally, in direct answer to your questions:
2. Go for a GTI. I did a 300 mile motorway trip yesterday and averaged 44.8mpg in mine. Knocking about I see 36-38mpg regularly. When giving it a punt I see 25-27mpg. I do 20k per year and still don't really see a big benefit with diesel. The petrol engine is wonderful too as I'm sure you're very aware of!
The mpg is all relative. I'm guessing you were doing no more than dot-on 70mph on the motorway (possibly less) to get 44.8mpg on the motorway run.
I've always based my mpg comparisons on an 80mph cruise speed. The best I ever did on a long run at 80mph with a few bouts of 50mph through average speed camera zones in the GTD was 58mpg (87% of published combined). I've noticed that the lower gearing of the R (and will be the case for the GTI also) gives you a higher cruising speed penalty than seen in the GTD. There's not much difference in mpg between 70 and 80 on a GTD, but the difference is very noticeable on the R.
My R does 32mpg on my 20 mile commute which is 50:50 80mph and 50mph. The car can do 38mpg on the 50mph run (5% off official combined figure), but does 28mpg sitting at 80mph (30% off combined figure).
If you're prepared to drive to the absolute letter of the law, or even more conservatively then you can get close to the combined figure. For someone that hammers the GTD and gets 50mpg then jumps into a GTI and drives the same way, they'll be lucky to see 35mpg, maybe closer to 30. Not many people will expect to see 45mpg on a GTI without driving in a very controlled manner.
20k miles PA will see you saving significant money when running a GTD. Some will baulk at the fuel differences, some dislike diesels enough to want to pay a grand a year more on fuel doing 20k miles PA. I do personally like the power delivery of high powered diesels, but we'll never see a bi-turbo TDI Golf on a GTD badge that outguns a GTI - VW won't allow it (on R badging perhaps....).
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Personally, in direct answer to your questions:
2. Go for a GTI. I did a 300 mile motorway trip yesterday and averaged 44.8mpg in mine. Knocking about I see 36-38mpg regularly. When giving it a punt I see 25-27mpg. I do 20k per year and still don't really see a big benefit with diesel. The petrol engine is wonderful too as I'm sure you're very aware of!
The mpg is all relative. I'm guessing you were doing no more than dot-on 70mph on the motorway (possibly less) to get 44.8mpg on the motorway run.
Nope, Cruise set at 80mph but traffic was fairly heavy in parts. Couldn't tell you what the average speed would have been but spent a fair bit of time in a 50mph average camera section.
You are right though, if I were sat at 80mph the whole way, I normally see around 39-41mpg.
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Another vote for keeping your GTD and buy an extra years warranty for peace of mind. Then see what the Mk 8 GTI/GTD/R looks like. That's what I'm doing.
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Use it to go towards your mortgage if you still have one. It will be much more beneficial in the long run.
Far too sensible for me Dubber :laugh: and its the long run I have problems with :grin:
I know its good advice but probably because you don't actually see or feel any benefit other than when your mortgage is paid off earlier. I'd rather have a new experience now. Who knows what's round the corner. Aged 46 I've seen too many folk roundabout my age die. As long as I can afford both, thats the main thing for me.
Exactly my feelings dude, live for today not for tomorrow :smiley:
If you have a notion of changing then change, don't even think about it, life's to short fella :cool:
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Exactly my feelings dude, live for today not for tomorrow :smiley:
If you have a notion of changing then change, don't even think about it, life's to short fella :cool:
Wise words! It's my Dad's cousin's 50th tomorrow, so we'll be out on the lash from around 2pm. At 50 years old he's already outlived both his parents, you don't know what's around the corner. My Grandad was a colossal skin-flint and even as a humble joiner, he managed to have £240k in the bank when he died. He lived like a pauper through his own doing - you can't take it with you!
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1. Would you change just because the car would be 3 years old and out of warranty ?
2. GTD or GTI for doing about 8k miles per year
3. MIB II 6.5" Standard Nav or Still the 8" Pro unit.
My one and only post on this subject, in this thread:
1. No, I'd not change it solely for that reason but it's often a reason I use myself! In modern cars the electronics rule the roost, the manufacturing tolerances on the mechanical parts are probably way way better than they were 20 years ago but with current emissions regulations there are just so many parts that are begging to go wrong. Add in the tech that goes out of date not long after the car is registered and factor in the general oversupply of new cars and easy finance deals and you have one hell of a dilemma on your hands. Just face up to the fact your mind has been made up a little while now Mr N and there's only one thing you're going to do now...
So, on to
2. As I've probably bored everyone with many times over, on different days you will wish you had a different version of Golf. Some days a GTI is perfect and on other days a GTD would be better and once in a while an R trumps them both so long as you are prepared to work for it. The GTI is a bit more responsive than an R below 4000 rpm but after that the R gets into its stride. The R however does have a slightly different character programmed into the electrics that makes it want to shoot off towards the horizon. The GTD is a lazy lugger and with a tuning box, just like MH says, it would trump the lot of them at normal (safe) road speeds with the only drawback being traction from a standing start or a touch or wheelspin when nailing it out of a roundabout with a big grin on your face.
At the end of the day a Golf is still a Golf and no matter which version you buy it will still feel like a Golf. You can load up an R to £41k and it still feels like a Golf.
For me there are many arguments but none are right and it depends on your perception of money.
Get a DSG R and load it up then you will have a very expensive Golf with lots of toys which will be very satisfying to own for a while (until all the tech goes out of date) & make a very attractive private sale many years down the line with any luck, but won't hold its overall value very well in the grand scheme of things - however if you can afford the thick end of £40k to spend on a shopping car then you won't miss the ££££ that much.
Get a low spec R and you're buying into the 'value for money for a 300bhp car' territory. You're buying it for what it offers as a performance model, something someone like me who has run Golfs on and off for 20 odd years could only ever have dreamed of once. I do about 5k PA in my Golf most years and after 5 weeks with my R I don't miss any of the extras I had in my GTI one bit. It's a drivers car. The only downsides are that it is a lot worse on fuel than the GTI and the ride is much harder.
A GTI PP is the best allrounder for me, it runs on 95 RON and does decent MPG if you granny it and will show decent fuel savings over an R even on 8k miles PA.
19" tyres are pretty expensive so why not look at aftermarket 18's and keep the Austins for part ex time, plus the Santiagos are a nightmare to clean and is why I didn't order them for my GTI (ignoring the fact I had a set of 19's in the garage).
How much of your 8k PA do you spend sat in your car playing with all the gadgets? From history I'd say you're a bit of a gadget man (self confessed) so you'd probably not be happy unless you had the Tech pack.
Personally if I was ordering a GTI now the only thing I'd add would be park assist, I think aside from that it comes with a pretty comprehensive spec as standard and to minimise depreciation I'd minimise extras. I'd then add aftermarket wheels. But that's me and not you!
Another GTD? Probably a bit pointless looking at the big spec of your current one and its reliability record. Add a DTUK box and see what tempts you in 12 months time would be the 'sensible' option, but I think you've already moved past that mark.
3. How much time do you spend messing about with music and fiddling with the radio unit? For me it's a minimal amount. When I'm driving I'll either be chatting or have the radio on in the background whilst watching the road. In a traffic jam the radio is turned up a bit maybe, I don't generally use much imported music off CD or SD or phone nowadays as I just don't have time to upload music.
And when I'm parked up I generally have the radio on as I tend to listen to a lot of radio (it's a human company thing maybe? I like the chatter in between tracks depending on who's the DJ!) or I sit and chat on my phone with VW mates or play agony aunt to the women at work :roll eyes:
So I can't really give any opinion on no.3 as I just don't use the headunit to its full capacity.
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very nice post Exonian.
TBH, I'm getting more and more of the opinion of keeping the GTD until the MK8 appears and this time not being a first time adopter, and giving it some time to mature slightly.
I will look into getting an extended warranty if I keep the GTD (will this have to be aftermarket - for instance Warranty direct, or can you buy it from VW even this late in the day ?)
You are spot on with two point Exonian. Being a technical manager for a global engineering company, I do like tech, and am a self confessed tech head, however your second point is even more sobering. One of the reasons in changing would be to get some of the latest MIB tech (Car play, MirrorLink etc.), but as you say, tech does out of date so quick these days, that chasing the latest and greatest in electronic wizardry is a fools game (and I think I'm just coming to realise that).
The big plusses for keeping the existing car a little longer is a) My car it seems is very well built, has been very reliable and is a decent enough spec to keep me happy for a good while. Like you say Exonian, after a few months once the novelty has worn off, do you really need the new tech. Secondly or b) Not having to go though the painful exercise of negotiating with VW again then waiting an endless amount of time whist they cock everything up !
I'll speak to SHMBO tonight and get her thoughts (though as a bank manager, I'm pretty sure I'll know what her reaction will be) :grin:
In any case thanks all. There were some really interesting points made both for and against and I for one have found this most interesting (as I always do on here). Let's close this discussion here. I'm keep you posted as to the ultimate decision.
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Once your 3 year VW warranty is near end,VW will contact you to give you the option to extend it.
I think I paid £300 with the mk6 just over a year ago.
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Intriguing read to see what peoples' thoughts are. Whilst you have had a good run mechanically, if I was in your position I would Defo change considering I have 4 (if I remember correctly) warranty issues. Xenon light went, light software issue, the suspension issues a lot experienced when first released and now the Brake Servo is being released just off that alone I am looking to or will look to change. like I say that is wholly personal to me and the car. R GTI PP or Clubsport who knows but that email re deposit contributions have heightened my desire to switch.
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Sootchucker if you pay for postage you can borrow my DTUK tuning box for two weeks of you like as I'm away from the end of this month, might sway you more into keeping the GTD and just buying a box.
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Sootchucker if you pay for postage you can borrow my DTUK tuning box for two weeks of you like as I'm away from the end of this month, might sway you more into keeping the GTD and just buying a box.
That's a great offer Sootchucker! Take him up on it and post the results. It would be an interesting experiment. Go on.. You love stats and detail :wink:
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Yep, agreed, a great offer and could be a way of easing towards getting a box to help scratch the itch for a while.
Would give the GTD much more useable performance than a standard GTI or R at sensible road speeds.