GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk6 => Topic started by: Whiteshirt on 04 January 2013, 17:59
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Christmas morning LOUD EXPLOSION.
6th sense it was my car parked and unattended outside.
£17000 damage 9 months old
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg305/shirtwhite/005_zps029476c2.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg305/shirtwhite/002_zps0e2e396e.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg305/shirtwhite/013_zps46cda7b3.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg305/shirtwhite/009_zpsb24fcbb9.jpg)
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What happened?
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O dear..not so good...
what a start to the new year for you then... :sad:
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Twisted the shell by the look of it so reshell?
Do insurance companys still work on 3/4 the value to write cars off?
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What happened?
Left outside my daughters house.
Hit by Ford Focus pushed onto kerb into telegraph pole.
Ford Focus driver walking wounded.
Police Ambulance etc.
Needs new bodyshell to repair.
Problem is what do I get. (Insurance will give me new car but new what???)
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Twisted the shell by the look of it so reshell?
Do insurance companys still work on 3/4 the value to write cars off?
60 percent !
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This will also affect your Insurance as well...be aware... :sad:
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gutted for you. what a bloody shame. :undecided:
were they drunk or just stupid or both?
oh and before anyone says what to buy next i might as well say it first - M135i :whistle:
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This will also affect your Insurance as well...be aware... :sad:
Please explain
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This will also affect your Insurance as well...be aware... :sad:
It shouldn't as it should be the third parties insurance paying out with nothing for your own insurer to do.
Absolutely gutting, and Christmas morning too :sad:
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Ok...
My son had a chaser imported from Japan...as it's a long car he parked it across the road from the house..one fine morning a guy who stays up the road from us, ran into the back of the chaser and the damage was something similar to yours..
The guy left a note on his car and his name and number then did a runner...we contacted the police after trying to get hold of the guy and they said wait 24hrs...we did get a hold of the guy and he said it was his fault...my son has had nothing but problems with the insurance company trying to get this resolved...he did get a hired care for a few weeks and they tried to fob him off with a settlement amount instead of getting it repaired...it's been going on for months now and still haven't got it repaired and the insurance company has now said it will be a class c right off...they have also said it will be recorded against him as a no fault claim and his insurance will go up. not sure whats going to happen now..so all i'm saying it's not always that straight forward....
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This will also affect your Insurance as well...be aware... :sad:
It shouldn't as it should be the third parties insurance paying out with nothing for your own insurer to do.
Absolutely gutting, and Christmas morning too :sad:
i had a no fault claim, driver pulled out on me from a side road without looking and nearly killed me.
he admitted fault etc etc and was done by the police but my insurance still went up about 10%. its just another rip off.
unfortunately your insurance will be affected by this.
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Ouch! Feeling you pain mate, got any bits you want to sell :evil:
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Still waiting for insurance to come back to me.
I am with Aviva the other driver with Direct Line.
At the moment I have a hire car and have been contacted by Direct Line saying they admit total responsibility
( Dead right) Aviva say I will not have to chase up my excess (£250) as that is not relevant in this case.
The problem I have is that my Insurance will give me a new car if my car is under 12 months old (which it is) and is damaged more than 60 percent of list price . I seem to remember that is £28480. (the damage is in excess of £17000 so with hire car, removal storage etc thats about right on the nail.
However the insurance policy then goes on to say they will replace the car with the same specification as bought.The spec I have is in excess of £30000.
Does that mean..
1) They will total loss the car and give me a new ed 35 base spec?
2) They will not total loss the car and rebuild it?
3) They will total loss the car and give me a new ed 35 at the spec I had?
4) They will give me the cash value of 1) or 3) as I dont think you can get a new ed 35.
5) They will total loss the car and scource a secondhand one similar spec.
The bodyshop states that the car is a total loss and they would not rebuild it, but I presume the Insurance decide
Any ideas or knowledge would be helpful...
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I wouldn't be surprised if because the mk6 is no longer available they don't give you back to invoice value to get something else.
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This is where bridging insurance kicks in?
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But how many people take that out.... :sad:
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I wouldn't be surprised if because the mk6 is no longer available they don't give you back to invoice value to get something else.
That would be the best I could hope for.
Can I ask, is that a guess or have you any experience of this..
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if its a new car you should get return to invoice so you will get the full money you paid for the car.
theyre selling ed35's discounted now so if you can get your full money back you could buy another new one probably less than you paid in the first place.
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Straight off the financial-odubsman website
10. "new for old" seldom applies
Most motor-insurance policies require the insurer to provide a new replacement only where the vehicle is written-off within a specified time – typically within 12 months – after the date of first registration. After that, motor-insurance policies rarely require the insurer to provide a new replacement. Where the vehicle was pre-registered by the dealer before sale, we usually treat the vehicle as if it was first registered when it was first sold.
Disputes can arise about this where the "new vehicle provision" says that the insurer is only liable to provide a new vehicle if the same make and model (and sometimes specification) is still available in the UK market. We are likely to consider it unfair for the insurer to pay less than what it would have cost the insurer to replace the vehicle with a new one if it had been available.
Once you have a decision and need help trying to find a replacement let me know and I will try and point you in the direction of one so you can let the insurance company know where it is.
Lee
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Straight off the financial-odubsman website
10. "new for old" seldom applies
Most motor-insurance policies require the insurer to provide a new replacement only where the vehicle is written-off within a specified time – typically within 12 months – after the date of first registration. After that, motor-insurance policies rarely require the insurer to provide a new replacement. Where the vehicle was pre-registered by the dealer before sale, we usually treat the vehicle as if it was first registered when it was first sold.
Disputes can arise about this where the "new vehicle provision" says that the insurer is only liable to provide a new vehicle if the same make and model (and sometimes specification) is still available in the UK market. We are likely to consider it unfair for the insurer to pay less than what it would have cost the insurer to replace the vehicle with a new one if it had been available.
Once you have a decision and need help trying to find a replacement let me know and I will try and point you in the direction of one so you can let the insurance company know where it is.
Lee
Many thanks for this information Lee.
I will keep you posted.
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if its a new car you should get return to invoice so you will get the full money you paid for the car.
theyre selling ed35's discounted now so if you can get your full money back you could buy another new one probably less than you paid in the first place.
Things may have changed but I've suffered a similar fate in the past. I wrote off a car and it was only 6 months old. My policy was new for old in the first year. But the cars model had changed slightly (same car they had.changed.the.engine.slightly). I then battled with the insurance company for months. I only got "market value" in the end. Not even close what it would cost to replace it with new. The ombudsman have never been any use when I've had to deal with them sadly.
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Sorry to hear this, hopefully something can be sorted out satisfactory...
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if its a new car you should get return to invoice so you will get the full money you paid for the car.
theyre selling ed35's discounted now so if you can get your full money back you could buy another new one probably less than you paid in the first place.
Things may have changed but I've suffered a similar fate in the past. I wrote off a car and it was only 6 months old. My policy was new for old in the first year. But the cars model had changed slightly (same car they had.changed.the.engine.slightly). I then battled with the insurance company for months. I only got "market value" in the end. Not even close what it would cost to replace it with new. The ombudsman have never been any use when I've had to deal with them sadly.
i had VW's own insurance the first year of my car and one of the reasons i went for them over other companies was it had a return to invoice for the first 12 months of the cars life.
it may be something that varies between insurers then but with it being a new car at the time it was something i wanted in a policy
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I wouldn't be surprised if because the mk6 is no longer available they don't give you back to invoice value to get something else.
That would be the best I could hope for.
Can I ask, is that a guess or have you any experience of this..
This just my understanding of it, as the car was under 12 months old. I'd be going over my policy with a fine tooth comb to totally understand what I was entitled to. Who are you insured with?
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I wouldn't be surprised if because the mk6 is no longer available they don't give you back to invoice value to get something else.
That would be the best I could hope for.
Can I ask, is that a guess or have you any experience of this..
This just my understanding of it, as the car was under 12 months old. I'd be going over my policy with a fine tooth comb to totally understand what I was entitled to. Who are you insured with?
Aviva
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My mate had a less than one year old ED30 stolen and never recovered, just as the MK6 came out.
He had a decent spec on the ED30 but as they couldn't find one exactly the same as his, they offered him silly money, about £17k if I remember.
Eventually they did find a ED30 with a lower spec and after a lot of arguing agreed to replace his with that one. He still lost out with the extras he had on his old one but at least it was better than the paltry cash settlement they were offering.
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Jesus Christ! I feel for you mate.
Must be the time of year, I went out on Christmas Eve morning to find my van (albeit an old X reg Vauxhall Combo) has the entire nearside pushed in up to top of wheel height, along with the wing mirror ripped off. Still driveable but the (drunken?) twit who did it long gone, no point in claiming on insurance as the vans (financially) worth diddly squat, so I've just got to put up with it....... Had it been my car... I'd still be screaming now :angry:
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Thats crap mate really feel for ya :sad:
Did you take out Gap insurance ? if you did at least if they don't pay out the full invoice value of the car the gap insurance will make the rest up ?
Failing that i think they may only pay market value of your car and cover any expenses incurred and cost of a hire car etc until the claim is settled, hope it all turns out for the best for ya bud,
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Just had a read through Aviva' website, did you have their Motor Distinct cover as that covers the car for the first two years. I suspect this could be one of the bolt ons to ya policy that you might not even know you have?
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Sorry to hear this - stressful and something you could do with out.
One thing to bear in mind is that your insurance company will be working on your behalf to claim off the third party and I would expect that they will invoice the other insurer with your full costs including replacing your car with a like for like - i.e. as the ED35 is no longer able to be ordered they will try and source as near spec as possible ("they" might be you!) and then work the figures from there.
From my understanding it won't be worth you taking a cash settlement as this will be more of a book value rather than new value.
I'd be on the phone Monday AM with a list of questions...
Good luck and keep us updated.
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Not got GAP
Would you believe, this is the first car I have had without it, (sods law)
Many thanks for the posts. I will keep the forum updated.
Anyone had experience of taking the cherish plate off a total loss car, before the Insurance settlement ? (easy? straightforward?)
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Not got GAP
Would you believe, this is the first car I have had without it, (sods law)
Many thanks for the posts. I will keep the forum updated.
Anyone had experience of taking the cherish plate off a total loss car, before the Insurance settlement ? (easy? straightforward?)
I lost my private plate on my mk5 when that was written off,
The claim was taking for ever to go through and I didn't get a courtesy car as the car was a total loss, I was left without a car until the settlement eventually came through and the insurance company told me that removing the plate would drag it out even further, after the car is officially written off if you haven't claimed your plate back I think DVLA take over ownership ? (Don't take this as gospel) :sad:
It was a very stressful time as my house and my pride n joy were flooded out, so can't remember the exact details as to why ( I did have gap insurance tho and got back 25k on a 2.5year old car)
Look into getting your plate back as early as poss as it will delay the claim, they use any excuse to hold onto the money as long as they can in my experience,
Hope all goes well for ya :smiley:
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Latest update.
My insurance Aviva are sending their engineer to look at it.
Spoke to the bodyshop assessor, he says can't understand why, he has never seen an Aviva engineer
and anyway the other persons Insurance, Direct Line are paying.
Anyone got any ideas whats going off???
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I'd think that this was merely due to the amount of damage and that it is potentially to be written off.
Hopeffully, nothing to worry about but Aviva may need to confirm to Direct Line that they have had sight of the vehicle and can confirm the extent of the damage.
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They might want to make sure there's no foul play at work, it's going to be a big claim. Don't worry about the assessor.
Get your number plate off ASAP is my advice, but I'm not actually certain legally you'll be able to now that it is recorded (potentially) as written off on the Insurers database. Inform your insurer at the first opportunity that you are under no circumstances losing the plate.
As soon as the insurers compensate youfor a write off/stolen not recovered, legally, they own the number plate. I have heard story's where insurers have told people they can't have their plate back when a vehicle has been written off...usually only a problem if the number plate is worth a lot of money. I've gone into this in great detail as I have a valuable plate on mine.
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Jessssssus H! Glad I took out gap insurance.
Hope you get everything sorted out.
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Because it was close to the 60%, they have inspected it twice.
They have now agree it is beyond economical repair and have said that they will scource a new one
with the same spec. If they can't they will give me market value. Can they do that???
I am being penalised, because if the car is easily available they would give me a new one similar spec. If the car is not
easily available, they are going to give me less.
Am I right in thinking the ombudsman has ruled that is not right??
Form gone to DVLA for plate retention (the insurance are ok with this)
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Straight off the financial-odubsman website
10. "new for old" seldom applies
Most motor-insurance policies require the insurer to provide a new replacement only where the vehicle is written-off within a specified time – typically within 12 months – after the date of first registration. After that, motor-insurance policies rarely require the insurer to provide a new replacement. Where the vehicle was pre-registered by the dealer before sale, we usually treat the vehicle as if it was first registered when it was first sold.
Disputes can arise about this where the "new vehicle provision" says that the insurer is only liable to provide a new vehicle if the same make and model (and sometimes specification) is still available in the UK market. We are likely to consider it unfair for the insurer to pay less than what it would have cost the insurer to replace the vehicle with a new one if it had been available.
Once you have a decision and need help trying to find a replacement let me know and I will try and point you in the direction of one so you can let the insurance company know where it is.
Lee
Many thanks for this information Lee.
I will keep you posted.
Lee any ideas were to locate one. The spec is as per signature
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As in the ombudsman's statement it says 'we are likely to consider it unfair' based on my experiences with insurers they may initially offer you 'market value'. It would be up to you to argue and ask the ombudsmen to get involved. It sounds like legally they are under no obligation to give you the money you paid in this circumstance, but, the ombudsman could imstruct the insurer to do so.
Give them a call, they're extremely helpful. They have such clout that if you're not happy with your insurer and the ombudsman gets involved, the insurer usually backs down instantly.
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Because it was close to the 60%, they have inspected it twice.
They have now agree it is beyond economical repair and have said that they will scource a new one
with the same spec. If they can't they will give me market value. Can they do that???
I am being penalised, because if the car is easily available they would give me a new one similar spec. If the car is not
easily available, they are going to give me less.
Am I right in thinking the ombudsman has ruled that is not right??
Form gone to DVLA for plate retention (the insurance are ok with this)
No, because the car is no longer available they are within there rights to offer market value. It's probably in their small print too.
As I said in my previous posts I have suffered this in the past, in my case the ombudsman ruled with the insurance company but I got forcourt capbook value in the end more than originally offered.
Good luck,
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If that is the case.
What do you think Market value should be?
White, 5 door manual, 7000 miles, reg 30th March 2012, Sat Nav, Dynaudio, Reverse Camera, Fold Mirrors, Tyre flat teller and colourful small car picture in dash.
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When i looked to change I was gettig bid 18500-19000 for my oct 2011 gti similar spec to yours no sat nav or camera similar milage
Obviously yours is newer and a 35 but I bet trade in isn't much over 20k and forecourt price around 24k
Do they use trade in values or forecourt values?
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When i looked to change I was gettig bid 18500-19000 for my oct 2011 gti similar spec to yours no sat nav or camera similar milage
Obviously yours is newer and a 35 but I bet trade in isn't much over 20k and forecourt price around 24k
Do they use trade in values or forecourt values?
I don't know that yet, should hear from them next week.
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Market value suggests they'll take a punt between the two, this'll test your negotiating skills mate because they'll try and get away with as little as possible! Good luck mate and I hope that its sorted without too much stress!
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Market value suggests they'll take a punt between the two, this'll test your negotiating skills mate because they'll try and get away with as little as possible! Good luck mate and I hope that its sorted without too much stress!
What I can't understand, is that my Insurance company should be acting on my behalf.
Surely they should be trying to screw the other parties insurance for the most money to replace the car.
My insurance should negotiate with theirs, not me negotiate with mine.
If this is not the case what am I paying my Insurance to do.
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Totally agree mate, its back to front eh? At the end of the day it wasn't your fault and yet you potentially will lose out. My advice would be to stand fast and dig ya heels in. Have you added any other expenses I.e. the time you've had to have off work to try and sort this out :whistle:, by this I mean try and top the payout offer up?
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Totally agree mate, its back to front eh? At the end of the day it wasn't your fault and yet you potentially will lose out. My advice would be to stand fast and dig ya heels in. Have you added any other expenses I.e. the time you've had to have off work to try and sort this out :whistle:, by this I mean try and top the payout offer up?
I might be wrong,but there could be a lot of aggravation and frustration coming. (Will wait and see).
It is beyond belief, that your pride and joy is parked outside, mint condition and through no fault of your
own is written off and it may cause an uphill battle to get what is rightfully yours.
I going to claim for everything mate (plate transfer, phone calls, tea and biscuits for the police and ambulance crew the whole lot)
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I guess most of you have not had to deal with insurance campanys before :grin:
They will probably offer mid ground between trade in and BOOK forcourt price (thats not actual vw dealer lot sticker price)
You will then probably have to write many letters sending copies of vw dealer lot advetised cars to try and push the price up. They may then offer top book value if your lucky. (still not advertised price)
Insurance companys are not here to help you, they are here to do as little as possible and make as much money as they can.
All I can say is what ever you do don't except the first offer, unless by an act of god they do actually offer a decent offer but I will be very suprised.
Edit
Looking at a couple of trade books I would hold out for a minimum of £24k if it was me.
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[/left]topic=24 :lipsrsealed:6514.msg2267219#msg2267219 date=1357938705]
Do they use trade in values or forecourt values?
It depends on the small print. But in general if you can proove you bought it from a dealer or main dealer the small print normally in the small print it vague says you get similar value so between private and dealer prices is the general payout.
If its a private buy they normally get away with between trade and private payout.
I have had a bad history of been crashed into :cry: I do seem to attract people who want to bang me in the rear :shocked:
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when my blade was written off (other party admitted total fault) i got showroom price for the bike - not much less than it was new, despite it having about 5000 miles on it and being 6 months old.
the other insurance were obviously liable. i had to send photos to show the condition it was in and i got top money back for it.
the whole process was easy, no hassle at all
it was a 10 grand bike not a 30 grand car though so dont know if it differs
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If I was you I'd find a car on Autotrader that is as close to your spec and give your insurance company the details. They won't look too hard because its easier and cheaper for them to just offer you book price. There are still some new Edition 35s out there. I seen some at VW Crewe and Leicester
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There is a new one at my local dealer, White, Glendales, but it is a three door..
HERE (http://www.nicarfinder.co.uk/dealers/phillips-lisburn-ltd-volkswagen/3405/used-cars/Volkswagen-Golf/2012/CF239-2058/40170024/) it is. I think it is a £24k at the moment.
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Thanks for all your help.
I will update any progress when I get it.
Spoke to local dealer he checked the computer and said there is only one new 5 door manual in the country.( how true this is I don't know)
Black with a few extras.
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Try contacting VW customer service explaining what has happened and they'll tell you which dealers have stock.
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http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201211154245604/sort/default/usedcars/price-from/15000/quantity-of-doors/5/model/golf/make/volkswagen/onesearchad/used/onesearchad/nearlynew/onesearchad/new/page/4/postcode/po228bs/radius/1500/keywords/edition_35?logcode=p
A quick search found this. Plenty more 12/62 platers around £24K. Hope you get something sorted quickly, seems a shocking injustice if you lose out in any way! Surely we pay for insurance so we don't lose out! Good luck.
Nige
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Loads of ED35s on pistonheads :smiley:
http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/classifieds?Category=used-cars&M=635&SortOptions=PriceHighToLow
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Straight off the financial-odubsman website
10. "new for old" seldom applies
Most motor-insurance policies require the insurer to provide a new replacement only where the vehicle is written-off within a specified time – typically within 12 months – after the date of first registration. After that, motor-insurance policies rarely require the insurer to provide a new replacement. Where the vehicle was pre-registered by the dealer before sale, we usually treat the vehicle as if it was first registered when it was first sold.
Disputes can arise about this where the "new vehicle provision" says that the insurer is only liable to provide a new vehicle if the same make and model (and sometimes specification) is still available in the UK market. We are likely to consider it unfair for the insurer to pay less than what it would have cost the insurer to replace the vehicle with a new one if it had been available.
Once you have a decision and need help trying to find a replacement let me know and I will try and point you in the direction of one so you can let the insurance company know where it is.
Lee
Many thanks for this information Lee.
I will keep you posted.
Lee any ideas were to locate one. The spec is as per signature
I will have a look tomorrow for you mate, give me a ring in the afternoon between 3 and 4pm and I will let you know what I find.
01242 222233
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Thanks for your help Lee.
I will let you know how it goes..
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Looks like no new edition 35 5 door manuals left
The battle begins......
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Aberdeen Dealer has one 35 Red 5 Door 3500miles 24k if thats any good...
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The only thing left.....
If anybody is interested.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/170982209010?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1586.l2649
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The Insurance company cant get a new one, as I thought.
They have offered me 29k.
What do you think??
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Well there is no way your car was worth £29k with 7k miles on it as a secondhand vehicle so I would suggest that is a more than reasonable offer.
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thats a very good offer, i would snap their hand off
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Take that offer that is really really good!
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The Insurance company cant get a new one, as I thought.
They have offered me 29k.
What do you think??
I could feel a good second hand golf R coming on!!!
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Seems a fair offer, for a change!
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As said above
I'd take the offer and a very good one at that :smiley:
get an R.....
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EVO used stock sales pitch opportunity! Sounds like a great offer to me.
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I know what he wants and I don't think there is any in our group : ( will have another look tomorrow just incase : )
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As all have suggested snap there hands off...
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The Insurance company cant get a new one, as I thought.
They have offered me 29k.
What do you think??
TAKE THE OFFER NOW!
The car was only worth 24K
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Thanks for all your comments.
As expected I have agreed the figure of 29k.
I am thinking of buying a runner and putting a deposit down for the new GTI
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Thanks for all your comments.
As expected I have agreed the figure of 29k.
I am thinking of buying a runner and putting a deposit down for the new GTI
Good luck with what ever you decide to do, be it GTI/R...I'm sure it will be more fruitful than your last experience...
Do you think your get another 6 or are gonna hold out for the 7 GTI...?
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Thanks for all your comments.
As expected I have agreed the figure of 29k.
I am thinking of buying a runner and putting a deposit down for the new GTI
Good luck with what ever you decide to do, be it GTI/R...I'm sure it will be more fruitful than your last experience...
Do you think your get another 6 or are gonna hold out for the 7 GTI...?
Going for the 7 .
Should have one hopefully Sept/Oct
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Result :cool:
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Result :cool:
Amen to that! :cool:
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Thanks for all your comments.
As expected I have agreed the figure of 29k.
I am thinking of buying a runner and putting a deposit down for the new GTI
Exactly what I was going to suggest. Perhaps get yourself a current Golf Match run it for 8 months and into the GTI :)
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I was horrified what I saw at the start of this topic. Looks like you got a crackin settlement, glad you got sorted in the end.
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I was horrified what I saw at the start of this topic. Looks like you got a crackin settlement, glad you got sorted in the end.
Many thanks
It appears to have turned out reasonably well. Saying that though, I wish I still had my Edition 35 and not gone through all this trauma.
You can bet your bottom dollar, GAP is on the cards next.
I have just got hold of the engineers report. It makes fascinating reading, listing every nut and bolt, body panel etc etc etc required, approx 20 pages. Total cost to repair over £20000.
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Rest assured as soon as we know more about mk7 gti etc I will post it. Got a deposit for mk7 GTD today.........
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Rest assured as soon as we know more about mk7 gti etc I will post it. Got a deposit for mk7 GTD today.........
Wow, not even seen what it looks like or its spec yet.
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Rest assured as soon as we know more about mk7 gti etc I will post it. Got a deposit for mk7 GTD today.........
When are you taking deposits for the GTI?
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Rest assured as soon as we know more about mk7 gti etc I will post it. Got a deposit for mk7 GTD today.........
Didn't think the order book was open yet?
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Rest assured as soon as we know more about mk7 gti etc I will post it. Got a deposit for mk7 GTD today.........
Didn't think the order book was open yet?
It hasn't but some dealers will take a deposit for when it does. Mine has £250 but not sure what it'll be for as there is loads of speculation on the Beetle R, Golf R Cab for the wife or mk7 R for me.
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That's really bad luck mate, sorry to hear that :-(
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Rest assured as soon as we know more about mk7 gti etc I will post it. Got a deposit for mk7 GTD today.........
Didn't think the order book was open yet?
They're not but i imagine it's for allocation purposes cos it was a bloody nightmare with the mk6! :angry:
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Will be interesting to see what it sells for...
http://www.bluecycle.com/car-salvage-auctions/15138352
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You getting ready to order your mk7 :wink:
Yeah really interesting to see what that goes for.
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Will be interesting to see what it sells for...
http://www.bluecycle.com/car-salvage-auctions/15138352
I couldn't even look mate as it would break my heart!