GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk3 => Topic started by: GTI-Virgin on 31 December 2012, 20:30
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Hi all,
so I've been lurking for 3 months since i got my 1997 AGG 2l 8v MK3 GTI 3 months ago, all standard and in good nick apart from a slow coolant leak it runs like a dream & all the extras work a treat. I drive a brand new vw caddy daily but the golf just has summat about it i love, Ive got the DubBug.
So during the cold weather due to me not renewing the tax i left it sat in the cold, takes it out for a 10min drive and saw the coolant light come on within 5 mins, so i left it to cool then drove to garage to treat her to some coolant as the last owner(family use) has used just water making it rusty.
By the time i came to puttin coolant in her it came straight out the bottom :sick:
Now Iv realised I've run it empty of coolant causing an overpressure situation and this has caused my nightmare! 3 wks ago when i drove it she was going lovely, temp sitting in the middle steady as a stone and no warning lights. Evidently driving it empty of coolant has blown the head gasket.
So long story short, in my naivety i took it to a garage and payed £120 just to get the core plug put back in, NOW i know thats an easy job and most likely the cause of my problems. So we refill it and find its leaking still :( mechanic says head gasket and due to the steam in the exhaust(i only drove it 1/2 mile after that) I believe him. So iv traaaaaawled the web looking for a guide/advice but none anywhere, so today I've ordered head gasket, bolts & a haynes manual, gotta tackle it myself as no cash to pay anyone and need it urgently for work. As im a gas fitter, doing mainly breakdowns(awkward tiiiight places, seized bolts & loadsa patience req) I think im up to tackling it and have a good idea of the principles, i reckon iv got the patience & most the tools to do it.
Due to my m8 only driving it 4-5 miles max on empty before we tried to fill up the coolant im hoping...nay praying the head isnt warped, so im gonna try a new gasket and if its warped il go from there as i dont own any feeler guages to check it.
Now I beg of you, Has anybody got any tips or advice, anything?? I reckon its my tit of a m8s fault as I saw the temp guage over middle before i let him drive it, the coolant light on and the heating hadn't activated which i assume is down to not enough coolant to reach the thermostat & activate it.
Now iv done plenty of research online but very little is relevant, i was even tempted to try "steel seal" but thought it might cause more probs.
So guys, its xmas, please have a heart & help a really stuck virgin dubber out :cry:
PS-if anyones local and wants 2 help im happy to do gas/plumbing work in return as part payment, my specialism is fixin boilers but i can fit em, service em, whatever u need.
I wait with baited breath for your input guys, can I do it? do I need any specialist tools aside from socket set, spanners, torque wrench, blowtorch, multimeter, tons of handtools, Flue gas analyser(measures C02, CO, O2 levels precisely etc..?
Happy New year, hopefully somebody can make mine :lipsrsealed:
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Did your "mechanic" do a sniff test as steam at the tail pipe just dont cut it as a diagnostic.
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Oil coolers are common to go on these, mine packed in, leaving all Mayo and after speaking to various vw specialist, they told me start with the oil cooler first. And that was the problem
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Thanks for the input guys, but what in my story points to a faulty oil cooler? Surely it would just overheat plain and simple? not lose all its coolant? He owns a very busy local garage and he pressure tested it in front of me to diagnose, as I fix boilers all day every day hes aware im not stupiud, and hes just to busy to do it & wants a small fortune. Dunno about a sniff test?
So could running it dry for 30 mins knacker the oil cooler aswell? From the mechanics(1 gti owner) iv spoke to iv been told Il need to ensure the water pump is working ok aswell as like a heating pump running dry can kill em.
The test he did was a pressure test, lasted about 30 secs and he could tell from that & the description of running it dry it was likely the head gasket. If it was the oil cooler wouldn't that just cause overheating? As opposed to the coolant to dissapearing at a rapid rate, like i said guys the line between the steam at the exhaust & head gasket was my conclusion, he didnt even mention that, but its gettin shot of its water in minutes and from a good few hours online the cause & symptoms do appear consistent with a head gasket.
Hes aware im doing it myself and have ordered the bits, so if hes talkin sh!te he knows i only live round the corner.
Thanks for the input guys and im no mechanic, but I was more wondering if anybody has changed their own head gasket? or has any tips on how? From all the reading iv done the cooling systems on cars are remarkably simple & not unlike heating systems in houses. Id have thought an oil cooler would have higher temp tolerances, and surely these issues wouldnt be manifested by emptying water(invisibly)at a rapid rate? as opposed to just overheating.
Also how would a faulty oil cooler prevent the car heater circuit operating? and allow the engine temp to just rise?
Im quite certain of the cause(no coolant, driven dry)and the symptoms are logically consistent with that train of thought so il be havin a crack at the head gasket in the next few days anyway.
But I bow to your superior knowledge, is there a way to prove the oil cooler? when fixin boilers the difference between a decent engineer & a guys that just guesses and chucks parts at it usually comes down to "proving" diagnosis(ie-suspect cooling t'stat=drop it in boiling water & observe if it operates).
I've got analysing equipment that may be usefull for checking this? we use em for boilers and they are about £700, as i said above.'
Again any advice, opinions or ideally a rough idea of whats requiremed to change a head gasket would be appreciated :smiley:
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Is the car overheating now if you top up the coolant and run it up? These cars can sometimes be problematic to bleed and the coolant level will drop causing an air lock and overheat the car. If you haven't bled the coolant system I'd give that a go to get all the air out.
There are some methods you can try to check for a head gasket failure, ranging from little testers that detect exhaust gas in the coolant expansion tank (never work for me though!) pressurising the cylinder with air and trying to see bubbles in the expansion tank or you could try to remove all the spark plugs and carry out a coolant pressure test overnight/for a few hours. Then try and start the car with a newspaper or tissue in front of the spark plug holes. If when the engine is spun over the tissue gets wet then you have water in the cylinder and the head should come off.
The last one is normally very conclusive!
Firstly, I'd try and bleed the car if your mechanic hasn't done so already and as noted by DRG dubs, steam out of the exhaust isn't really a conclusive test to say the head needs removal. Then get a coolant pressure test done and see if it holds. If it holds you might be ok hopefully. If it doesn't hold then look for any external leaks, top up the coolant some more just in case you had an air lock, re test it. Then try the method of removing the plugs to see if there is water in the cylinder.
Hope that helps a bit. It's a lot of work to be removing the head especially on an older engine where bolts may snap on removal. When a head is removed the oil and filter must be changed and as the cambelt is to be taken off the head that too ideally should be changed along with the tensioner (unless its recently been done) depending on the severity of the heat then the head could be warped and may need skimming to make it flat again. I've also had blocks warped as well.
It can get very costly so you need to be very sure about removing the head. A faulty oil cooler can cause problems, blocked radiator, water pump not circulating, fan not cutting in. There may be a small coolant leak that can't be seen initially and one of the above issues together may give your symptoms. If you can rule them all out then think about taking the head off.
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Thanks alot for the helpful post, but i must say im still inclined to suspect the head gasket as this car ran like a dream until the fateful night a few days ago, when i went to put the coolant in i could see the rust marks in the expansion ball & it had seized shut, making me think a serious overpressure situation had occured.
Basically imagine running the car with NO coolant in whatsoever, this he claims has damaged the head gasket.
Yes its overheating as its not holding its water pressure, but with no visible leakage, the mechanic who refit the core plug pressurised it for about 30 secs before the pressure began to drop, upon which(he did not even see the steam, that was me!!)he diagnosed it as a head gasket.
So the facts we already have are(not mine or mechanics opinions)-under pressure test its less than a minute before a drop starts showing, it was run dry for a few miles after the core plug had come loose-When coolant is added its going somewhere and that place isnt visible.-Not 1 of these symptoms was present before this incident(apart from a slow coolant leak-once a month refill id say)-it was drove all in for under an hour, gently and short distances while empty by some evidently blind tw@t not caring that temp guage was past middle & coolant light was on-so from these facts is it still likely to not be the head gasket?
Im no mechanic but based on the workings of an engine cooling system(pretty basic) im wondering how it could have goosed all the other bits, that day was the FIRST time ever the heating didnt come on, which likely means the thermostat didnt get got enough due to no water/coolant in the circuit.
Also as iv ordered the gasket im kinda comitted :/ Also when u say filter & oil must be changed, do u really mean MUST? I've got the impression from posts on this site and others that replacing a head gasket can be done in 3-5 hrs by an amateur with half a brain, and that oil changes are advised, not essential.
Thanks again for your patience guys, but the quirk i missed out to keep it simple is that the night this happened my m8 bought the car off me after 3 hrs of persuasion as i didnt wanna sell it, and rushed off before i had chance to check anything so now im kinda on the spot.
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Would steel seal be worth a go?
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Not read all this so sorry if its already been said
but id just replace the engine if the HG is deffo gone.. quickest fix
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As you have now mentioned your mechanic has carried out a prussure test seems to lean toward head gasket faliure, but this is not a conclusive test as the oil cooler could have failed.
First things first from the way you have written your posts being honest a head gasket replacement is not a task to be carried out by a novice, but as you are adiment and you have obligated to ordering parts go for it.
A few things missing from your list are:
1. Timing belt kit this is just good practice
2. A decent anti freeze
3. I always skim the head and have it crack tested
4. Oil filter
5. Oil (this may have been affected by the HG faliure or broken down when the car overheated)
As this is your first bash at doing this take as many pictures as you can during the replacment this will always bee a good referance when you ask yourself "where does that go again".
Lay the parts out you remove in a order dont just throw them in a pile, check and replace if needed any part that looks dodgy. Clean and clean again, use a stanley blade to clean mating surfaces do not go at it like a mad man take your time.
Read and try to understand timing as this can cause many problems upon the refit, also as you have ordered a Haynes manual read the step by step guides before you go at it.
We all started some where so why not with a head gasket i cut my teeth years ago doing a full engine rebuild and a twin turbo conversion in one hit and it worked.
Last thing Good Luck
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Not read all this so sorry if its already been said
but id just replace the engine if the HG is deffo gone.. quickest fix
Surely removing the engine is gonna be alot harder than replacing the head gasket? I've read that for a mechanic its a 2-3 hr job and pretty straightforward, unless that is the head is warped.
Thx alot DRG Dubs, your post is really helpfull m8, working on boilers all day will help alot as often its a case of remove 5 parts to get to 1, then youv gotta remake all those connections with no leaks etc, so cleaning mating surfaces on connetions etc is second nature to me. Spending 20 mins undoing 1 seized awkward nut is something i do daily so im used to remaining calm when alot of ppl would get so stressed they rush and they f**k it up. Il follow your tips, my only problem will be if it needs skimming. If thats the case is it the actual head that req skimming? if so i can take that into the garage.
Im very reluctant to do that m8(replacing the engine) as this issue aside, the car is a fantastic fault free example, rust free, 100% standard example being a family car most its life. The engine sounds great and old ppl have had it for 10yrs so its NEVER been ragged or abused, its as if its been in a timewarp so i really wanna fix the engine rather than waste a good unmolested engine. When i jump in that from my brand new VW Caddy 1.9TDi its just as smooth but more responsive.
As I said I fix boilers for a living, sometimes after 2-3 so called gasmen have been n told em they need a new boiler, usually cos they are 2 thick to properly prove diagnosis which in there case is often a guess :huh: Dunno bout mechanics but in my trade many sooo many guys are totally inadequate at diagnosing faults, to the customers cost.
If anybody wants advice on boilers, or any1 local needs 1 fixing im more than happy to trade knowledge. Im Gas Safe Registered.
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Forget the oil cooler mate as you don't have mayo in the water system ,your losing water and its not leaking visibly and its not mixing with the engine oil? correct,so to me it sounds like a leak past the head gasket straight into a cylinder,does it miss a bit when first started,i would replace the head gasket but defo have it checked and skimmed as said ,saves doing the job twice :wink:
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Take all the advise you have had and give it a bash there is always help on hand, if you are realy stuck just message me and I can help you out with advise only. But have the head skimmed and tested you would not use 15mm when only 22mm will do(sorry I have limited knowledge on boilers and plumbing best I could do).
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Also as iv ordered the gasket im kinda comitted :/ Also when u say filter & oil must be changed, do u really mean MUST? I've got the impression from posts on this site and others that replacing a head gasket can be done in 3-5 hrs by an amateur with half a brain, and that oil changes are advised, not essential.
When you remove the head off from the block any coolant in the head can, and in my experience most likely will, go into the cylinders, the head bolt holes and the oil ways. So you end up having coolant in the oil.
Another tip is to blow out all the holes for the head bolts so that they are clear from oil and coolant. When you come to torquing the head bolts if there are any liquids in the bolt holes then you would be compressing it and this can crack the block. Also it can give false readings when torquing the head down.
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Ah thanks alot guys :o) So if im gonna do my own head gasket should i take the head to a garage to get it skimmed while its off?
Also I got a few lads that work in garages coming back to me with quotes tomorrow@mates rates, whats a good price for this job with a skim aswell(im supplying gasket set)? As you say dont wanna do the job twice, and is rather get it done properly if poss(id prefer to do myself apart from dunno how to skim it & this is a proper busy time of year for me), ie-new oil etc, also bit worried about doin the timing without a kit as the other problem i didnt mention with her is she stops at 5000rpm, thats in all gears and at "exactly" that point throughout the range, so iv checked the MAF & was gonna take her in for timing doing, and/or to get her hooked up to diagnostics to check why the ECU is limiting it(thats how it feels, at 5000rpm its asif the fuel supply is cut off like a limiter), already cleaned throttle body thanks to this gem of a site I found, yes this 1 :wink: Im bored of boilers but alot of the skills will be transferable, im especially used to electrical testing & testing pressures etc(vacuum sections)
Looks like im buying the car back from him and sorting it myself as hes had a few "u need a new engine merchants" but Im used to rescuing boilers and im sure with enough perserverance & patience I can get her ship shape and eventually even running better. I didnt wanna sell her anyway as got her for a song-£600 in nr immaculate condition, 136k on clock but feels/looks like less. Id rather do that anyway as i sold it under duress, and it was ustterly fine till i let the guy take it empty :cry: I got the car as a little project for me to learn more about motors and have already started with the RCL & MKIV Keyfobs. After finding this site I was gonna do all non boyracer upgrades to her(cept wheels & tyres, brake pads, speakers behind standard grills & maybe some subtle bodywork) sell her for a small profit and buy a 16V/V6, as engines fascinate me, these are great cars to work on and i fell in love with her at first drive. Shes a lovely example of an unmolested MK3 and im now a converted dubber.
Leon27-Il bear that in mind, and plan to drain any remaining coolant before starting, tho no doubt like boilers theres always a bit left in somewhere...
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Oh and again thanks aot guys :smiley: If I dont buy this car back i still intending buying a 16v/V6 by the summer anyway as these are great cars to work on(and learn on), affordable to buy and lovely to drive. and with am amazing resource like this Im soaking up all the posts and info, its Fantastic :laugh:
Screech16v-Your bang on m8, also whats a 20VT like? say compared to a v6?
DRG Dubs-Thanks again for your advice m8 and your patience.
Also, almost all women love golfs :wink:
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Also, almost all women love golfs :wink:
[/quote]
Not true in my case the wife loves her 68 Beetle rag top when shes brave enough to bring it out
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Screech16v-Your bang on m8, also whats a 20VT like? say compared to a v6?
I normally am :laugh: but not according to the mrs :grin:
Well its lighter and has more power than a vr so do the math :smiley: .
Head gasket should be a dodle to you as its basicly a tear down,replace parts and stick it all back together,pretty much what you do as a job .Just pay careful attention to cam timing and torqueing the head back down in the correct manner ,job will be a goodun
Good luck
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Screech16v-Your bang on m8, also whats a 20VT like? say compared to a v6?
I normally am :laugh: but not according to the mrs :grin:
Well its lighter and has more power than a vr so do the math :smiley: .
Head gasket should be a dodle to you as its basicly a tear down,replace parts and stick it all back together,pretty much what you do as a job .Just pay careful attention to cam timing and torqueing the head back down in the correct manner ,job will be a goodun
Good luck
So is that a 20 valve turbo? whats insurance, MPG & cost for a 15yr old un m8?
Also If I mark it up with pen I can do the timing roughly without a timing kit/light? Will that info & torques be in haynes?
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Not read all this so sorry if its already been said
but id just replace the engine if the HG is deffo gone.. quickest fix
Surely removing the engine is gonna be alot harder than replacing the head gasket? I've read that for a mechanic its a 2-3 hr job and pretty straightforward, unless that is the head is warped.
I can assure oyu chaging a engine like for like will take same time or less than a head gasket swap.. you have to tear down so much doing a HG anyhow
We have done it and we have done engine swaps etc..
really would not bother doing the HG on a old 8v theirs so many engines available cheap
id put in something better tho.. 20VT is the best bet just cost you ££
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Not read all this so sorry if its already been said
but id just replace the engine if the HG is deffo gone.. quickest fix
Surely removing the engine is gonna be alot harder than replacing the head gasket? I've read that for a mechanic its a 2-3 hr job and pretty straightforward, unless that is the head is warped.
I can assure oyu chaging a engine like for like will take same time or less than a head gasket swap.. you have to tear down so much doing a HG anyhow
We have done it and we have done engine swaps etc..
really would not bother doing the HG on a old 8v theirs so many engines available cheap
id put in something better tho.. 20VT is the best bet just cost you ££
Ok, sounds like u have a garage and maybe a hoist, i dont. Iv never ever removed an engine from a car, also if i put in a better engine all the connections wont be like for like will they? Same positions? new ECU? etc...
From reading these forums and ppl asking about putting a 16v, or even a V6 into an 8V, mostly the advice is it would be cheaper to buy a new car....maybe not if your a mechanic with a pit, hoist, loadsa different fluids & oils, seals, and so on it may be easier & faster, but is it cheaper? HG kit & haynes is costing me £70, whats an engine gonna cost me? and am i realistically gonna be able to change engines, then make it work with an 8v ECU & Components? surely 16v, 20v & V6's have uprated gear in em to account for faster speeds, braking and increased stress on frame etc?
If what u say is doable BAD for an amateur non-mechanic doing it in a car park, how much & how long will it take me to drop a 20v in? and what extras will i req? And will that be doable in under 5 hrs?
Some helpful info for a clueless newbie would help.
Thanks for your input :smiley:
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Another question would be surely warping only takes place when somebody drives a car for prolonged periods above the optimal temperature.
As this was driven no no more than 30 mins, and thats its small parts like 10min her, 10 theres, surely that means theres alot less chance of warping.
If a boiler overheats badly for a short perios it doesnt warp, if its overheating for days/weeks and the custard keeps resetting and using, then the main heat exchanger(like an engine block crossed with a radiator)can warp, also how hot it gets is a factor, I doubt this got far over 100c and as it seemed to be holding po#ressure of a sorts(as exp ball was expanded shut) surely iv got a good chance of no warping?
Please guys this is my last question before i have to do it, and if iv gotta get it skimmed i mayaswell get a mechanic to do it anyway :undecided:
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70 quid would have an 8v engine in there.
I sold mine for 30 quid. Antifreeze and oil etc.
Have you priced in a new cambelt?
Personally if I really cared for it and it was my car I'd prefer doing the head, get it skimmed reseat valves etc and new cambelt.
Buuut no offence I wouldn't do all that on an 8v because I'd only get an 8v as a cheap don't give a toss runabout.
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Ok thx for the input, thats the cost. What kinda time does an engine swap take, as opposed to a HG.
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You could buy a whole new 8v car for the cost of getting a mechanic to rebuild the current one.
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Yeah i wouldnt bother with the headgasket personally. I couldnt even sell my 8v engine which had a new head and timing belt on it. Ended up in the scrappy. Got £8 For it lol... But granted you dont have the gear to do an engine swap.
Possibly For you to do the head urself is probably the best option for you. You dont have gear to do a swap. Its not worth fixing at a garage. Uv got the parts it seems. Just remember a new belt kit and be prepared for if it all goes tits up
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Thanks again guys for your info.
If I can get the HG & Skim done for £200 surely thats cheaper than buying a new 1? I payed £600 for her.
Its an immacuale R reg, with working AC, EW, etc and the engine is in top nick.
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Thanks again guys for your info.
If I can get the HG & Skim done for £200 surely thats cheaper than buying a new 1? I payed £600 for her.
Its an immacuale R reg, with working AC, EW, etc and the engine is in top nick.
Homer? That with a new belt and all parts supplied? I pay 40 for a skim and pressure test at my local engine builders. I wouldnt charge that much with you suplying all the bits
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Homer? sorry for my ignorance but whats that?
also back to the OP, any tips, advice or guidance on replacing the HG? If I do it myself which due to finances i will be I doubt il be able to get her skimmed, but considering she was only overheating for a very short period im hoping the head isnt warped.
Just need a bit of advice and important things to do, dont forget its gettin done on a shoestring so it aint broke i aint fixin/replacin it yet.
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Did you buy a gasket kit or just the head gasket and head bolts??
Reason being, you are gonna need inlet/outlet gaskets and outlet manifold to down pipe gasket.
You are also gonna need a torque wrench and you should get the torque settings and bolt sequence with the new head gasket. You are possibly gonna need a Ribe tool too for the head bolts, although the AGG possible just use standard hex bolts.
Set your engine to top dead centre to start.
You want to remove as much as you can from the bay to make your life easier.
Disconnect the battery, remove the air box and air intake pipe.
Drop your oil and coolant then remove all the vac and coolant hoses from the top of the engine.
Remove the intake manifold (you can leave the throttle body connected to the intake) and the outlet manifold, remove the rocker cover, auxiliary belt and cam belt cover, now remove the cambelt.
You need to remove the head bolts in sequence too, the opposite way to which you have to tighten them.
Once the head is off, clean both faces thoroughly, you can check the head with a straight edge for warpage, bob the new gasket on, put it all back together.
A Haynes would probably aid you in this quest to be honest, take a lot of pictures on the way to help you put it all back together
I may have missed summat but its a rough guide so hope it helps :smiley:
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I would add a few studs for the manifolds as you are bound to snap one off in the head, ben is spot on with the gasket advice as these will fall apart on removal or fail to seal properly on assembly if re used.
Also you may want to consider taking the rad out to flush it through and check it over, this will give you more access to the engine bay anyway.
Worth checking the pump works while your there too as running on water does naff them, new stat is a must.
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Many many thanks for all the info guys, gotta say its sounding more dauntng than I thought, but then again I changed a main heat exchanger on a crappy boiler yesterday, nearly every bolt snapped and it took me 6hrs, so iv got the patience.
My only worry is all these car fittings are much larger in size.
Ben-I did only get bolts & gasket as I was unable to find a kit anywhere & after searching these forums the links were just to those items :huh: The bolts are a very large star type, must be like a 20pt star?
Will I get away without intake/outtake gaskets? turn em over and apply silicone grease? or is that just boilers that works for.
Bush-Thanks alot for your input but What are studs? And thx alot for the logical advice of checking the head on a straight surface, didnt even think of that :rolleyes:
Anyway haynes is on its way, from germany for some reason :shocked: But my m8 ordered it so god knows why.
Personally I really wanna tackle this myself as iv now got a taste for golf's and all my custards who are mechanics say they are easy & good to work on. just wanna get this fixed then im gonna be looking at getting myself a nice 16v or 20VT depending on insurance quotes as the 8v is surprisingly low, just worried it will be hard to get one with some decent upgrades that hasnt been ragged all over.
seen a few nice examples for around the £2000 mark, they look well worth that :evil:
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Intake/Outlet gaskets are a few £s from VW, may aswell replace them properly, if you use a sealant and it doesn't fully seal it may make it run differently...
For my ABF intake gaskets were £3something each, outlets shouldn't be much different...
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So the engines gone into the garage for £300, heads just come off and is going to off tomorrow to be reskimmed & pressure tested, fingers crossed.
The mechanic doing the work has said the plastic housing/connector that connects the cooling circuit to the head on the same end as the expansion ball on the bottom is cracked, i asked him if he knew the part no./name but he doesnt, does anybody have any ideas guys? name or number?
I also need the breather pipes from the top of the engine as they are melted, would any of you guys know a part no/price for these items? he's just gonna contact VW and hes saying theyl likely cost a bit from them :undecided:
Any info would really be appreciated as my bills growing and id like to keep upo with whats going on and learn a bit along the way.
Oh yeah and as advised by u guys theres a snapped stud on manifold :rolleyes: the mechanic says hel get the engine ppl who are sorting the head to do that aswell.
Its a bit of a downer but i was thinkin how nice she looked with great clods of steam coming out the back, lol.
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This is what you need
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Water-Coolant-Flange-End-Head-VW-Golf-74-02-/380498170366
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wow cheers fella, ur a helpful lot :smiley:
Iv definitely got my heart set on a Vr6 or a 20VT for summer, this forums# is amaaazing for info, golf heads really are dedicated :nerd: