GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk4 => Topic started by: tom-gardiner on 16 August 2012, 18:50
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How much power will the standard internals on an AGU take roughly?
Thanks guys :)
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It's torque you should be worrying about, not bhp. I wouldn't want to be running any more than 300lb/ft on standard internals....rods will be bent going much higher than that.
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stage 2 will be fine then even with a ko3s?
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stage 2 will be fine then even with a ko3s?
Yeah, should be fine :afro:
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the experts say 300bhp so stage 2 will be fine!
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the experts say 300bhp so stage 2 will be fine!
mine was runnin 309! no probs! standerd internals, and that was., stage 3? :undecided:
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350lbs of torque Iv been told is pushing ur luck.
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All depends how healthy your engine is :wink:
You can't just say a figure
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(http://i45.tinypic.com/2qm2nmx.jpg)
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even 300lbft is pushing your luck. Remember these engines are getting old now!
As said, it's torque not power that kills rods, so map accordingly.
I currently have a ko4 hybrid capable of 340bhp / 300lbft, but it's mapped very safely making 300bhp, with only about 260lbft, which it holds right across the rev range. Feels incredible to drive, and the power just keeps on coming and never stops, but it's low torque, and rod safe.
People have bent rods just at Revo st1 on ko4 cars....
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Thats 300lbs of torque out of window then!
Im back up Wednesday with Nick on my stage 2 custom AGU k03s.
I want around 245-250bhp and around 260-280lbs based on this thread.
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Thats 300lbs of torque out of window then!
Im back up Wednesday with Nick on my stage 2 custom AGU k03s.
I want around 245-250bhp and around 260-280lbs based on this thread.
from a k03s ? :lipsrsealed:
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Thats 300lbs of torque out of window then!
Im back up Wednesday with Nick on my stage 2 custom AGU k03s.
I want around 245-250bhp and around 260-280lbs based on this thread.
from a k03s ? :lipsrsealed:
That's a tad optimistic :grin:
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We will see.
Its not just from a K03s :wink: and WITHOUT water meth.
Its a custom map.
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We will see.
Its not just from a K03s :wink: and WITHOUT water meth.
Its a custom map.
No matter what supporting mods your adding, the turbo will be the limiting factor and you'll struggle to see the figures you've quoted with a KO3s :undecided:
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with supporting mods you are right on the limit of the turbo at those figures
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Same turbo same spec as what I have is running 260bhp with Nick when I was there, He actually took me in it.
The only difference is hes got WMI.
Chris on here was runnning the exact same spec (I dunno what exhaust) but running 248bhp 270lbs+?
Im not saying I will get these figures but I hope to be close as.
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Heres Chris's hope he doesnt mind
248bhp 278lbft R - Tech Powered 1.8T!! - Gone but NOT forgotton
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These cars are exceptional though, and not the norm. the 260bhp one you speak of is TingTongs, he works there, and the WMI allows LOADS of timing to be added. Special cars indeed compared to those you drive around in every day.
Also, a ko3S at 250bhp won't last very long at all.
Sensible figures are 230-235bhp and 270lbft, they can produce this year in year out and don't fall apart. Anything more than that and you've created a time bomb.
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These cars are exceptional though, and not the norm. the 260bhp one you speak of is TingTongs, he works there, and the WMI allows LOADS of timing to be added. Special cars indeed compared to those you drive around in every day.
Also, a ko3S at 250bhp won't last very long at all.
Sensible figures are 230-235bhp and 270lbft, they can produce this year in year out and don't fall apart. Anything more than that and you've created a time bomb.
[/thread]
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I had this dicussion with Nick himself so we will see what happens on Wednesday.
Im not a tuner so iv quoted what he said and if the worse happens and it goes boom, it happens.
Turbo goes bang then a rebuild is cheap enough. If rods bend or fly out then blocks are easy and cheap.
Tingtongs been running over 260bhp for a good 10k now with no problems what so ever and a cheap ebay rebuild kit for the turbo.
I trust what Nick says and not what people on forums opinions are, Although we are all intitled to opinions and I am listening to them :smiley:
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Feel free. I don't believe Ting Tongs car has been making 260bhp for 10k though, I'm fairly sure it blew up recently before inters and needed a rebuild again. if they could all do it reliably don't you think every st2 car that comes out of Rtech would be making 250-260bhp?
Without WMI, you won't get close.
Niki is the absolute master of getting the most from a ko3S, but the facts remain, very few cars will ever see 250bhp, and those that do won't maintain it for very long at all, be it the turbo that dies, or the actuator, they'll soon drop off.
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I understand what your saying, hopefully the forge actuator will cope well.
Anywhere between 240-250bhp is what im looking for an I know Chris will do it so it wont be blowing up constantly.
As I said im not a tuner an I wouldnt try and explain something im not 100% certain of im just repeating what iv been told and its been proven on other k03s.
Even if it came to it and I drove out of there with 240+ I would still be VERY happy as I know the power curve will be awsome.
:grin:
Car in question is K03s with forge actuator
forge 007p
calibra injectors
vr6 maf
3inch turbo back with decat
catch can
silicone turbo intake pipe
THS front munt intercooler.
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You might well get that power, and if that's what your aiming for then I hope you achieve it :afro:
However as Prawny has said you'll be right on the limit, personally I'd rather be running a safe and reliable 230bhp than risk running 240 and causing damage. It's all good and well being able to say your running 240bhp when your down the pub, but you'll feel like a tit when it all goes pete tong and people say 'I told you so' :grin:
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Haha agreed mate,
I will makesure Nick does it safely at the end of the day its still my daily wagen so reliabilty is still a concern but parts are cheap within reason these days :grin:
Tbh im not looking for peak bhp figures and looking at my previous posts it seems that way, A good power curve is what im looking for but abit more than stage 2 figures hence iv bought a set of injectors and vr6 maf.
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Haha agreed mate,
I will makesure Nick does it safely at the end of the day its still my daily wagen so reliabilty is still a concern but parts are cheap within reason these days :grin:
Tbh im not looking for peak bhp figures and looking at my previous posts it seems that way, A good power curve is what im looking for but abit more than stage 2 figures hence iv bought a set of injectors and vr6 maf.
You're also setting yourself up nicely to be able to run a bigger turbo in the future :wink:
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Definatley on the cards mate,
My main concern is sorting this K03s AGU Bora then on to the mk5 as iv neglected it.
My misses is always moaning about it so I need to start spending time on that for a few months :sad:
Would be nice to k04 with relentess, not alot of work to do as iv got most things just Turbo, manifold and downpipe job done I think :cool:
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I'm not trying to knock you or put you down mate, just passing on experience.
I was in your exact position 4 & 1/2 years ago, with a massive st2 spec car and a custom map. I was absolutely confident I'd see 250bhp, I knew I would, I had to, it was the best spec going.....
then it made 238bhp. I was GUTTED, until I drove it, and realised it was quicker than i ever expected 250bhp to be.
That turbo lasted 3 days. Another went on, and it made 240bhp/290lbft. A year later is was 230bhp. another year later is was 220bhp, then after 4 years it was 208bhp / 262lbft. Nothing else changed in that time, it just lost power every year, and got slower and slower. When the turbo came off it was absolutely ruined. No ebay rebuild kit can fix cracks in the hotside you can see daylight through, or score marks on the comp housing caused by the comp wheel from a dying thrust bearing....
250bhp numbers have indeed been proven several times, but who's to say any of these lasted. perhaps some did last 2 years, and the owners did 2000 miles a year? if you do 2000 miles a month like I did, that same turbo may only last 8 weeks!
250bhp ko3S plots sometimes offer WORSE characteristics than a 235bhp plot, because so much heat has been produced with a massive spike to get the torque (and subsequently power) up low down that they run out of steam sooner than a less stressed setup. Thermal protection mapping due to modelled EGT's can kick in and kills top end power stone dead.
So, like I say, I'd stop worrying about figures and think more about how it drives, an R-tech st2 car with a forge actuator is a very punchy motor indeed, the actuator helps the turbo hold onto boost and makes for a really quick car
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AGU is a different kettle of fish though Dom, we max out at give or take 225bhp on standard injectors and MAF so for myself I want to upgrade these parts for the safety of my engine. Although mine makes good power Jim at JKM did tell me I was riding on the lean side of safe last time I was over there due to the injectors being at their limit. VR6 MAF and Calibra yellows are waiting to go on :afro:
Like Prawn says I do love the way it drives at the mo on the stage 2 map :wink:
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Woww I wasnt expecting that and that read has made loads of sence.
Thanks for taking the time to explain your experiences and its definatley made an impact of my overall understanding and what I want, it wouldnt make sence having a 250bhp car that loses so much performance within a year.
I also use the car regular around 1000miles a month at a guess.
Im abit taken back perhaps its my naivety of not actually understanding the stress of that much power or strain can cause in the long run.
Il just look foward to having it set up correctly and coming home with a smile on my face Wednesday. I will report back with figures then :cool:
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You'll love it mate, the combination of forge actuator, and the additional injectors and larger MAF will make for an absolutely epic ko3S car.
Niki CAN push them to mental limits if you ask him to, you just need to know the risks when asking him to do so.
250bhp from a ko3S requires a huge spike, around 25psi at 3500rpm, from the back of this it makes monster torque, almost 300lbft, and as power is a product of torque and RPM, the horse power is made very low down, peaking at 250bhp around 4500rpm. What you end up with is a car that's very fast, but not actually that amazing to drive. Something that's a little more reigned in to around 22psi won't have that spike, and it won't generate nearly so much heat and will be able to pull on hard right to 7000rpm.
This was the inside of my ko3S after 3 years abuse:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/A3%20DRT/c6677586.jpg)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/A3%20DRT/4511c5ca.jpg)
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Im getting excited :evil:
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you didn't keep the housing then mate :grin:
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No, I stuck it on a golf and sold it :evil:
my hybrid is a ko4 hybrid anyway :) ko4 housing with billet comp wheel and RS6 turbine on a relentless mani. obviously with a R-tech map!
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The most annoying this is im taking my daughter up with me as its school holidays so no playing on the way home :sad:
Hopefully last trip up for a year or so.
Big turbo or different car next time.
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my 4 year old encourages me to play :lipsrsealed:
Her exact words are "go fast so it pushes me back in the seat daddy!" :grin:
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You'll love it mate, the combination of forge actuator, and the additional injectors and larger MAF will make for an absolutely epic ko3S car.
Niki CAN push them to mental limits if you ask him to, you just need to know the risks when asking him to do so.
250bhp from a ko3S requires a huge spike, around 25psi at 3500rpm, from the back of this it makes monster torque, almost 300lbft, and as power is a product of torque and RPM, the horse power is made very low down, peaking at 250bhp around 4500rpm. What you end up with is a car that's very fast, but not actually that amazing to drive. Something that's a little more reigned in to around 22psi won't have that spike, and it won't generate nearly so much heat and will be able to pull on hard right to 7000rpm.
Agree to a extent. The high boost spikes make the torque, coupled with a bit of fuelling from the larger injectors. I was getting 298lbft on a 25psi spike (due to dodgy boost gauge under-reading).
I was making 248bhp and 278lbft from a 21psi spike and holding 18psi tailoring off to 12-13psi at redline. However that made its power, 248bhp at 4506rpm (i think) and had only the smallest of angled tapers from peak power to 200bhp at redline. It was an amazing car to drive. Such a smooth map, even though turbo is making its peak power very shortly after spooling up. but when you change gear at 7250rpm and drop back onto 248bhp at 4500rpm, you away again holding your power curve.
I have seen stage 1 and 2 maps being pushed harder than those running 240bhp+ setups. Its mainly timing that makes the power on these engines.
Then of course there is the reliability factor....Mine got pushed pretty damn hard from day 1 when it was mapped back in January 2010 (i think) when the k03s first went on and made 225bhp and 225lbft with few mods. When I took it off my 248bhp engine/map, there were cracks in the collector housing and a small crack in the wastegate housing...but you have to ask yourself.....what k03s turbos dont have small cracks in them? Ive yet to see a one which isnt cracked tbh. Not one bit of smoke or dodgy rattles at all from mine and minimal shaft play....of what is perfectly normal for a wet float bearing turbo.
Heres the crack in question:
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/carsey2006/20d40f88.jpg)
One of those that when its warmed up, will be sealed.
My setup has been replicated onto my mates bora 1.8T (using the block I was running aswell), my turbo and ecu. Exact same setup just a scorpion exhaust but with a toyosports intercooler. So we will be able to see how it lasts.
That shows less boost on the gauge than mine.....this might be down to a more restrictive core or a N75 valve on its way out....ill have to do some logging when its out bodyshop to ensure its running 100%.
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Theres alot of good info on this thread I will makesure Nick pushes the little k03s abit but dont want it blowing up every few months.
Every weekend I like to push it (on private road) and use it for work, So within reason I would like a reliable car its never broken down on me yet and its had a good few thrashings but I look after it ie warm up and cool down everytime and bloody regular services so it proves they are good engines when looked after no matter how you drive them.
I want a car that pulls hard and keeps pulling so peak figures doesnt bother me, I know Nick's maps are strong so I will trust him as to what he advise's and does :cool: