GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk3 => Topic started by: Stirring Moose on 16 January 2011, 11:31
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May have a bit of bad news. Apparently there are moves afoot to increase the percentage of bio-ethanol in petrol to 10% by 2013. This could have rather nasty implications for owners of older cars (and we're not talking pre-war here, more anything over about 10 years old!) as bio-ethanol can rot fuel system components that are not designed to cope with it. I am currently in the process of trying to find out how badly the Mk.3 might be affected and have fired off e-mails to the AA and to Volkswagen UK. Will let you all know what comes of it.
On the slightly brighter side, at the recent Autosport Show I spoke to Millers Oils who have already developed a range of fuel additive products to allow older cars to run the new fuel if there are problems. Not something to get into "just in case" though as it's more cost so will go on chasing answers as described above.
In the mean time, the Federation of Historic British Vehicle Clubs are on the case, check this link;
http://fbhvc.co.uk/bio-fuels/
S.M.
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In Brazil, most cars run off alcohol which is very dry And has no lubrication. The cars run well indeed as alcohol Burns better however these cars especially the older ones suffer more headgasket failures and wear and tear. I say bring it on, wish they had pure alcohol over here!
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In Brazil, most cars run off alcohol which is very dry And has no lubrication. The cars run well indeed as alcohol Burns better however these cars especially the older ones suffer more headgasket failures and wear and tear. I say bring it on, wish they had pure alcohol over here!
You may well be right that alcohol is good because it burns well but the issue seems to be getting it to the engine in the first place. If the bio-fuel rots out the seals etc. in the fuel system, it's going to leak out and the engine won't ever see it! Also, without wishing to get overdramatic about the whole thing, fuel leaks can potentially turn into fuel fires and they can really spoil your day...
S.M.
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Talking 10%. It's not going to be enough to cause major problems, nothing that taking care of the fuel system will not prevent. Fuel filter changes will help a hell of a lot as well.
Diesel cars are running up to 20% Biofuel mixes without any problems.
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about such a small amount of ethanol in the fuel, it's when you get to the bigger numbers like E50-E80 that the problems will start.
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:laugh: :laugh:
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Yeah I know 10% is a small amount and it may well be that all will be ok. Still worth being aware of though, especially as the government and fuel companies don't seem too keen to publicise what they're up to.
S.M.
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:laugh: :laugh:
Glad you find it all so amusing mate. Sorry this isn't a thread about what alloys fit, how low you can run or who makes the best VR6 "splitter". It's about a situation which may affect our continued use and enjoyment of our Golfs and I thought it only right to give other forum members the heads up. Hopefully, it'll not prove to be a problem (as Slick points out, it is only 10%) but I intend to keep my Mk.3 for a good while so I'd rather deal in facts than hope for the best and laugh it off.
S.M.
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Whoa! You clearly misunderstood!
I thought what you said about fuel fires spoiling your day was funny...
I actually do care about this matter, I run 10% bio in my tdi.
Very cost effective.
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Honestly, I do think you are getting worked up over nothing much at all.
Petrol has been having various levels of ethanol (or other similar additives) for the last few years, only to 5% or so, but still. Petrol with the addition of 10% level of ethanol isn't going to harm the system.
If there is a genuine concern on your part then there are seal packages available to replace the system for diesel engines, however I am not 100% sure on ethanol seal packages, but there is more than likely an option for a similar systems for petrol engines.
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Whoa! You clearly misunderstood!
I thought what you said about fuel fires spoiling your day was funny...
I actually do care about this matter, I run 10% bio in my tdi.
Very cost effective.
Ah, whoops :embarassed: Sorry to rip into you, not my usual style. Just been getting some sarky comments from elsewhere on the forum about this and it kind of put me on edge. Sincere apologies.
S.M.
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It's alright mate, no harm, no foul.
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who cares, the world is ending in 2012 anyways!
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I have chilli paste in my fridge that goes out of date in 2014...
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Honestly, I do think you are getting worked up over nothing much at all.
Petrol has been having various levels of ethanol (or other similar additives) for the last few years, only to 5% or so, but still. Petrol with the addition of 10% level of ethanol isn't going to harm the system.
If there is a genuine concern on your part then there are seal packages available to replace the system for diesel engines, however I am not 100% sure on ethanol seal packages, but there is more than likely an option for a similar systems for petrol engines.
Not so much getting worked up as just wanting to make people aware that a concern exists. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turns out you are right and it's all a storm in a tea cup but we may as well know for sure. Interesting to know about the idea of new seal packages though, might look into that for future reference.
S.M.
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who cares, the world is ending in 2012 anyways!
Yeah, but nowt wrong with hedging your bets! :wink:
S.M.
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Talking 10%. It's not going to be enough to cause major problems, nothing that taking care of the fuel system will not prevent. Fuel filter changes will help a hell of a lot as well.
Diesel cars are running up to 20% Biofuel mixes without any problems.
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about such a small amount of ethanol in the fuel, it's when you get to the bigger numbers like E50-E80 that the problems will start.
Spot on on this. 10% won't be noticeable really, only on a dyno. In Brazil they run E100 for the pure Ethanol, then the gasoline is mixed with an E25 blend. Pretty much all cars there can run on either one. For example, my dad has a Peugeot 307 SW. It has the typical 55l tank, then a smaller, 1l tank for gasoline in the engine bay.
The 1l tank HAS to have gasoline for initial start up (a car running E100 will struggle to start from cold), but it switches to Ethanol as soon as it's running, that 1l deposit lasts about 2 or 3 months.
It is recommended that you run a full tank of gasoline every month to lubricate the system, but my dad has been running Ethanol (with the gasonile tank on a monthly basis) for 3 years no problem.
What are the advantages? Ethanol produces more mid and top end power, increases the HP by a healthy figure. It is also very cheap, about half of the price of gasoline.
Disadvantages? Where as you may get 250-350 miles from a full tank of gasoline, you get about 150 miles MAX from a full tank of Ethanol.
A mixture of E10 here in the UK won't affect anything, it might bring the cost of petrol down a bit too as it's diluted with cheaper stuff (the Ethanol). As Agreeable slick said, maintaining a good fuel system with frequent fuel filter changes means you won't really notice the E10, and neither will your engine.
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Would the power increase be noticeable or would it be like 1 or 2 bhp ?
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Would the power increase be noticeable or would it be like 1 or 2 bhp ?
This is for E85
It makes power very similar to 117 octane C16 race gas
E10 won't be much though, probably equivalent to V-power and the likes.
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mine runs on lpg mainly (petrol for a min or 2 to bring the reducer up to temp) i think that mite be the way forward i know it still runs on pertol for a short amount of time but it will do less damage than if it ran on petrol all the time
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mine runs on lpg mainly (petrol for a min or 2 to bring the reducer up to temp) i think that mite be the way forward i know it still runs on pertol for a short amount of time but it will do less damage than if it ran on petrol all the time
I thought about LPG. However initial set up is very expensive and would take a while for it to pay itself off.
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£1500 for the first outlay and it aparently adds like 500-700 to the value of the car :)
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£1500 for the first outlay and it aparently adds like 500-700 to the value of the car :)
Hmmm, not sure about that. I wouldn't say I'd buy a £1600 "ok" mk3 with LPG :undecided:
There's maintenance costs too though.
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well to tell you the truth at my garage we fit and maintain lpg systems (dont worry im not going to try and sell it im only an aprentace here) and it is not too bad to be honest cheeper than a normaly service
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Just got the following on the subject of ethanol in fuel from a Technical Specialist at the AA:
"We are also very concerned about the effects of ethanol. We have
already received many reports of failure of rubber fuel hoses as a
result of using ordinary petrol with only around three per cent ethanol
content.
Last year we assisted a fuel scientist who was preparing a report on the
effects of ethanol, particularly if the UK does adopt the higher blends.
This was a follow-up to the Fuel Quality Consultation. The report
should be published shortly and as soon as it is available I'll send a
copy or a link to the website.
In terms of your own Mini, Burlen Fuel Systems in Wiltshire are aware of
the ethanol issue and have ethanol resistant parts in stock. The
situation with the Golf is less clear, but I am trying to establish
whether you are likely to experience any problems and will let you know
when I send the report."
S.M.
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the use of ethanol in petrol is not funny.
ethanol has a lower calorific value than petrol and also require less air to burn a given amount of it. iirc the afr's for alcohol are around the 6:1 mark
calorific value is about half that of petrol per ltr. the sh!tweasels in chagrge however won't alter the duity but we will getting less energy from each ltr of fuel we buy.
my guestimation is it'll be about the same as banging the duity up 5%. as for effects on fuel system i'm not worryed i've pissed about with ethanol and methanol a bit, high concentarions of methanol give problems but ethanol is fine never caused any bother even useing std vw bits
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Just got the following on the subject of ethanol in fuel from a Technical Specialist at the AA:
"We are also very concerned about the effects of ethanol. We have
already received many reports of failure of rubber fuel hoses as a
result of using ordinary petrol with only around three per cent ethanol
content.
Last year we assisted a fuel scientist who was preparing a report on the
effects of ethanol, particularly if the UK does adopt the higher blends.
This was a follow-up to the Fuel Quality Consultation. The report
should be published shortly and as soon as it is available I'll send a
copy or a link to the website.
In terms of your own Mini, Burlen Fuel Systems in Wiltshire are aware of
the ethanol issue and have ethanol resistant parts in stock. The
situation with the Golf is less clear, but I am trying to establish
whether you are likely to experience any problems and will let you know
when I send the report."
S.M.
Did the guy/gal define what cars or fuel systems they had seen this take place on?
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some interesting stuff that! thanks for the heads up!!
as danny says though, i bet the price stays the same :(
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@ danny_p: Think you might well be right there chap. Hadn't even thought of that. I know that engines which burn 100% alcohol fuels use a lot more than than an equivilent petrol motor so the ethanol/petrol mix would logically knock a bit off the mpg compared to pure petrol.
@ Agreeable Slick: No, no info as to what cars have already suffered. As the message says, the specific situation regarding the Mk.3 should become clearer once this report is out.
S.M.
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I would try if you can to get them to disclose this, as I wouldn't be suprised if the cars they have had concerns over a lot older than we think.
until then, I still maintain that there shouldn't be much of an issue.