GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => General discussion => Topic started by: tony_ack on 22 April 2009, 13:32
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The govenment has confirmed it will be introducing the car scrap scheme currently used in Germany. Here's what I understand of it so far:
*If you scrap a car more than 10 years old, you will be given £2000 towards the cost of a brand new car.
*In Germany, there are strict rules about the scrapped cars. They can be cannibalised for parts, but cannot be sold on as a whole car. This has been policed quite stringently, with penalites for those scrappies who break the rules.
On the face of it, a £2000 bonus isn't going to make me part with my mk2, but I think the implications for those of us with Mk1s, Mk2s and Mk3s are far wider than this
Will less ordinary people now break cars for parts, as there is a bigger incentive to scrap?
Will people with older prestige cars such as the GTI scrap rather than sell them if they're going to get less than £2000 for them, leading to fewer old GTIs on the road and increase in used values on the cars that are left (the marketshould balance out at used values of £2000+)? Good for current owners, but bad news for when you want to get your next GTI. Demand may also be increased by people buying cars worth less than £2000 just so they can scrap them and get the bonus.
Will scrapyards have an abundance of used GTI parts, making it easier and cheaper to get replacement parts? Oversupply of stripped parts has been reported in Germany. Again, will the market balance this - prices may get so low for parts, that it's not worth stripping a car, leading to a stabilisation in parts prices.
Could be good, could be bad, but it the scheme works as well as the government hopes, my mk2 has just got much rarer.
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i wonder; surely anyone buying a new car would buy any old sh!tter for a £100 or so and get the £2000 trade in?
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There ain't many people out there who own a sub £2k 10 yr old car with enough the cash to buy a brand new motor with potentially up to £2k discount. If you shop around and drive a hard cash bargain you'll get about £2k off a new motor anyway.
I'm not wholely convinced that its beneficial to the environment either, car industry maybe. I drive around in 23 year old car that returns a good 35mpg. OK its emissions will not be as good as modern equivalent but at least I'm preventing another new car being built which consumes more energy and impacts the environment during its manufacture. We throw away and consume too much these days, but that's what the country runs on.
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hard cash bargain you'll get about £2k off a new motor anyway.
yes - but that £2k discount would be from the dealer. the £2k you would get as a tax incentive would surely come from the govt meaning £4k off if you had cash?
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True, be interesting to see how they implement it. Probably just apply to certified dealers that join the scheme. But like I said people who use 10+ year old motors are normally not the ones who upgrade to a brand new vehicle. Most people who buy new are the ones who change every 3 years anyway and are therefore unlikely to own a 10 year old.
All my cars are over 10 year, although the Saab has a couple of years to go. Even then I would buy new, purely from the loss in depreciation, which the £2k bonus would take some of the sting away, but still not enough to me.
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I think its important to remember that this isn't just about getting people to buy new cars to help the struggling car industry and dwindling economy. If anything, its more of a way for the Government to try and get old cars off the road to help with lowering emissions and them hitting their targets.
With fewer older, less safe cars, their is also the potential for safer roads, with fewer road accidents resulting in deaths?
I am interested to see how this plan is going to work though.
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I drive old sub £2000 cars cos i can't afford a new one.
£2000 , even if it was a gift from The Government , would not eneable me to buy a new car.
I suspect that 99% of people who own cars worth less than £2000 are in the same boat.
Almost pointless scheme.
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With fewer older, less safe cars, their is also the potential for safer roads, with fewer road accidents resulting in deaths?
Be interesting to see where that theory comes from as my Saab 95 will be 10 years old soon, the model is still in production and is effectively as safe as my 10 year old model. Fact and figures required please or is that general assumption that the current government seem to be very good or not good at?
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Not sure how many of us have the cash to buy a new car or how many of us want to have finance given the circumstances of the finacila state and job insecurity. Too many of these people that think of these ideas sit at a big desk with keys to their big cars and drive to their big houses funded by their big wages. They always look after themselves, this scheme fails to help the ones who need help the most. Our kids will be paying for this complete mess made by Labour. Shame on you all........................................................................................
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With fewer older, less safe cars, their is also the potential for safer roads, with fewer road accidents resulting in deaths?
Be interesting to see where that theory comes from as my Saab 95 will be 10 years old soon, the model is still in production and is effectively as safe as my 10 year old model. Fact and figures required please or is that general assumption that the current government seem to be very good or not good at?
It wasn't necessarily aimed at you and your Saab, more towards some of the real sh!tters you see on the road that barely make it through the MOT that arent in production anymore. Agreed that it was a bit of a generalistion that newer cars are safer than old ones, but the point I was trying to put across is that a new model fresh off the production line will conform to all the latest ncap safety standards etc... whilst something a lot older wont.
I wasn't sticking up for the Government either -just trying to see things from all angles.
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I cant stand this Government but they didnt cause the current mess! Was those greedy Bankers!
Plus a few fraudsters in the States and some silly Icelandic bankers etc. etc.
IMO I think this scheme will be bad for us owners of older cars!
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I wasn't taking it personally Stronz so chill Rambo. But those sh*tters that are usually a smokey old Mondeo filled with 4 kids on the back seat with no seatbelts on and a pair of fat parents smoking in the front ain't going to trade in their chariot for a £15k new car even with £2k cash back. They'll wait till that £15k car is at least 15 years old and has had Dodgy Dave at the local bodyshop(driveway repair station) weld it back together after a write off and flog it for a shag with his dirty daughter and 100 fags.
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Rather jaundiced view of todays society there! :laugh:
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Every town and village have them do they not? Hopefully its just a minority.
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Lol,
No its cool - nothing taken personally!
You're right though, there always has been and will be a demand for low cost, old cars by the less fortunate members of society.
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You're right though, there always has been and will be a demand for low cost, old cars by the less fortunate members of society.
or those not prepared to get into debt up to thier eyeballs.
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I guess the other angle I was coming from, and what some on here have also mentioned is that if you are going to buy a new car anyway (and there are some people who will always buy a new car!), do you:
1) go to the dealer and pay the full (or negotiated) price
2) buy a secondhand car for £300, scrap it, and claim a £2000 discount on the new car?
Also, not everyone who has a sub-£2000 10+ year old car is necessarily poor! My partner's parents last year sold their R reg freelander and bought a brand new Pug 207 estate. My partner has a 12 year old 306 which is in almost mint condition, but we could probably afford to get a new one if we wanted.
Whilst it is not the cleverest idea to get a car on finance right now, some (many) people will still do it! My sister is a case in point. She has my old car - a 1998 Peugeot 306 Meridian TD. It's in good nick, no rust, runs well, is economical and comes with loads of extras like alloys, leccy windows and air con. She has been going on about getting 'her new Ka' for ages, and will probably eventually get one on finance despite our objections. If she sold the pug, she would get £1000 tops second hand. But if she scraps it - a perfectly good, reliable car, the government will put almost a third towards an new entry level Ka.
In Germany, the scheme has boosted the low-mid end of the new car market considerably, but the top end hasn't seen any significant sales rise. I would expect to see a lot more new small-engined, economical city cars on our roads soon - perhaps this is the effect the government intended?
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as for the discount you would actually get, £1000 is provided by the govt, £1000 by the industry. so theoretically you could get £1000 off by negiotating anyway without buying a new car so the added value by the govt is £1000, not £2000.
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If its purely from an emissions point of view surely the discount should be only available on low CO2 vehicles? In theory I could scrap my Gti and buy something excessively more impacting on the environment, Porsche Cayenne for instance. Suppose we don't know the full details yet.
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If its purely from an emissions point of view surely the discount should be only available on low CO2 vehicles? In theory I could scrap my Gti and buy something excessively more impacting on the environment, Porsche Cayenne for instance. Suppose we don't know the full details yet.
The governmant have not said its for any other reason than to kick start the UK car industry, no safety or environmental concerns at all.
So in that case, personally I think the discount should only apply to UK manufactured cars.
But I work for Jaguar, I'm biased! :grin:
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True, but what the Government say (or don't say!) is one thing, and what they are actually trying to do is normally another. Good point about offering discounts only on UK manufactured cars though.
I suspect there will be some sort of catch like you could get UP TO £2000, depending on what your scrapping, or some sort of limit to how many claims you could make so the system isnt abused.
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Tell you what though, its a shame about the rule that the car has to be taxed, insured, and mot'd.
Otherwise I'd clear out my garden and get a free mk6 gti! :grin:
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I'm more concerend about petrol going up 2p a litre this year (shortly after it went up 2p) and then 1p a litre each year. Er hello? The economy in this country depends on cheap transport and this going to add money to all our food bills and then make getting to work more expensive. Super unleded is already above £1 again at some places round here and even though the price is supposed to go up in spetember you can bet stataions put it up way before then.
Nick
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hi everyone
i`ve been lucky recently to be sent to spain on a work visit and been told of there scrap insentive scheme.
why is it that in spain they give 10k interest free for you to do the new scheme if spain can do it why the hell can`t
our government do the same.
is it cause larry and lauren are to busy pumping kids out instead of finding a job because it works out better on benefits than getting a job.
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You have to have owned the car for 12months minimum to qualify for this one in the UK, so people won't be "going out and buying scrappers" to get 2K back.
Germany's scheme is actually 2500 euros for the car, and then some of the dealerships match that so in essence getting 5000 euros deposit towards a new car.
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Is it just new cars or can you do the same for a nearly new vehicle???
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has to be over 10 years old.
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Has any1 seen the probs in germany at the mo? they are scrapping decent cars with 40.000 on the clock!! scrapys arnt allowed to sell the cars on and engine an cog boxes no1 wants. hows that good for the environment??
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surely the money you get for the 'new' car will be lost in the first years depreciation of its value?
new cars depreciate a heck of a lot!
Im not trading in my GTi !
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Has any1 seen the probs in germany at the mo? they are scrapping decent cars with 40.000 on the clock!! scrapys arnt allowed to sell the cars on and engine an cog boxes no1 wants. hows that good for the environment??
I think the environment bit is more of a tag-line to please more voters - I wouldn't get too wound up about that side of the coin. The primary objective is a financial stimulus for the car industry, which has the nice side-effect of having a global benefit due to the international nature of all car firms, plus car firms are some of the biggest employers on the planet, helping to get the money back into consumers pockets - it will help kick-start the world y'all!!
As a huge percentage of car purchases (even with £2k from the Gov) will be bought via credit of some form, the banks benefit too. Its employment, money markets and an industry bail-out in one nice easy to swallow pill.
As everyone's already said, I doubt many people will actually take up the offer, but then they don't want it to be too popular, just enough to boost trade a little.
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This just seems to be another version of the use it-break it-throw it away system we're all living in. Using cheap asian copies that don't last, but they're so cheap, that they're just getting binned rather than fixed and re-used. I mean...like Speedy said, cars are getting scrapped with 40k on the clock...seriously, mine has 180k on the clock, and it's still fine (well...fine to me :tongue: :tongue:) I suppose the people that are really gonna benefit from this will be new drivers, who have picked up a banger as their first car, and then a year later they are able to upgrade considerably, but again, these bangers will then be taken off the road, and 5-10 years down the line, there are gonna be no cheap old cars for the new drivers, demand will drop, the resale price of newer cars will drop, and it'll screw up the economy once again
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Just been out to ask about this and the response is the same. "The government are still in talks with manufacturers on this and we don't know if we are even doing it yet"
Just another thing the government f**ked up on.
Also you need to be the owner of the car on the V5 for the last year.
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Just been out to ask about this and the response is the same. "The government are still in talks with manufacturers on this and we don't know if we are even doing it yet"
Just seen a Citroen advert in which it said "£X,000 or £X,000 if you're car is eligible for the £2,000 scrap scheme" or something along those lines
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Won't make the blindest bit of difference to most people I wouldn't have thought, people with old cars have them because they like them or because they don't have the money for a new car - 2k off a brand spanker is sod all really.
If I wanted to upgrade our mondy (which is 10) I'd sell it (could get nearly 2k anyway) and buy something a couple of years old that'd be well cheaper and wouldn't depreciate as much as a brand spanker. No brainer to me!
I think the goverment should stop giving money to private companies and use it for something that would potentially benefit everyone, not just people who are well off enough to buy a new car already. If it's about climate change then why not reinstate some of the railways that have been squandered in the past to help people out of their cars, or plant trees for f**ks sake!
Plus all the scrappage and manufacturing of new cars would cause damage to the environment anyway. It's all a big sham to give taxpayers money to private companies (again!)
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Of course, the other little tickler that the Government haven't exactly shouted from the rooftops is the little matter of car tax.
Anything pre-2001 (including my 98 S4 ;) ) is cheap car tax......
Sooooo, you get your £2K "discount" :rolleyes: but you'll also then be subject to the heightened car tax :rolleyes:
Crafty.
Still I'll be interested tomorrow, as I'm going to look at a GTI at a dealers - will report back as to how this budget has affected the prices.....
Dan ;)
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Anything pre-2001 (including my 98 S4 ;) ) is cheap car tax......
As opposed to what?? I'm paying £185 for my mk2, don't really see that as cheap...:(
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Of course, the other little tickler that the Government haven't exactly shouted from the rooftops is the little matter of car tax.
Anything pre-2001 (including my 98 S4 ;) ) is cheap car tax......
Sooooo, you get your £2K "discount" :rolleyes: but you'll also then be subject to the heightened car tax :rolleyes:
Crafty.
Still I'll be interested tomorrow, as I'm going to look at a GTI at a dealers - will report back as to how this budget has affected the prices.....
Dan ;)
In all honesty, if you are that bothered with getting money off vs the cost of car tax, then the cars you are looking at are either sports cars, or big engined gas monsters, which deserved to be taxed.
Diesels and more the type of car that the general public person would be able to afford, come into the C-E category which is starting at £135 a year.
So, if you are that worried about the car tax bracket then you shouldn't be looking at larger cars, by the same token, if you can afford a larger (higher tax bracket) car, money would be the least of your worries. :rolleyes:
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Might have helped if I explained this a bit further :grin:
OK - £185 now.
P/ex/Scrap - get your £1/2K discount ;)
Get your new car and oh......
Car tax has gone up
for example -
upgrade to a Focus ST and "BANG" - it goes up to £245 per year :(
The CO2 car tax calculator is HERE (http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/road-tax/#manu=2514&model=1441&deriv=32574)
Look how much your next "dream" car could cost you :(
So, the Government gets even more money.....
DAn :)
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Personally, I'm not bothered about it at all, but some people will be.
Dan :)
In all honesty, if you are that bothered with getting money off vs the cost of car tax, then the cars you are looking at are either sports cars, or big engined gas monsters, which deserved to be taxed.
Diesels and more the type of car that the general public person would be able to afford, come into the C-E category which is starting at £135 a year.
So, if you are that worried about the car tax bracket then you shouldn't be looking at larger cars, by the same token, if you can afford a larger (higher tax bracket) car, money would be the least of your worries. :rolleyes:
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but the whole taxing scheme was brought in at the beginning of last year, so it's not like it's a new thing,
An actual government site price list: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524
Like i said, if you can afford to buy a brand spanking new "Focus ST" then tax is not going to be an issue.
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Yeh, the whole taxing thing is now old news, BUT, all these old cars that will be removed from our roads will be replaced by something else....
Just convenient that it's going to make the Government more money (sooner rather than later :grin: )
Yes, it was going to happen, but I don't think people thought it would potentially happen as quickly as it *could*.....
The arguement about the taxing issue being unfair reaches its pinnacle when you compare a new Focus 2L (not even an ST) to say, oooo, a Ferrari F40......
It's cheaper to tax the F40..... that's where it doesn't work.
Dan :)
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Has any1 seen the probs in germany at the mo? they are scrapping decent cars with 40.000 on the clock!! scrapys arnt allowed to sell the cars on and engine an cog boxes no1 wants. hows that good for the environment??
I think the environment bit is more of a tag-line to please more voters - I wouldn't get too wound up about that side of the coin. The primary objective is a financial stimulus for the car industry, which has the nice side-effect of having a global benefit due to the international nature of all car firms, plus car firms are some of the biggest employers on the planet, helping to get the money back into consumers pockets - it will help kick-start the world y'all!!
As a huge percentage of car purchases (even with £2k from the Gov) will be bought via credit of some form, the banks benefit too. Its employment, money markets and an industry bail-out in one nice easy to swallow pill.
As everyone's already said, I doubt many people will actually take up the offer, but then they don't want it to be too popular, just enough to boost trade a little.
I totally concur, this incentive is for few. In our current economic situation, a little boost may make the difference between solvency and insolvency for the some manufacturers. It is certainly not an enviromental issue,as the manufacture of a car is "more environmentally damaging than the life of a car", even a classic.
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There is one other risk with this ( I remember reading it somewhere in the last couple of days - hope it wasn't here!!LOL!! :grin: )
A new car only makes the manufacturer about £4-500 per unit.
Now if the £2000 is only going to be subsidised by 50% from the Government, it *might* actually cost each manufacturer to sell the car....
Some manufacturers may pull out of the UK market all together...
Dan :)
Not to mention the showroom tax on new cars.....
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has anyone thought that the dealers might just add 1.5k across the board anyway... this would cover their subsidy and administration costs
this 2k business effectively reduces negotiating powers by the consumer... but I would rather be negotiating for a discount off a car that had already lost its showroom tax .ie. 1-2 years old.. but then again I doubt I would buy a car from a main dealer anyway.
i think the 2k will be an incentive for little mary, who learnt to drive in a 10 year old sh!tter that she doesn't maintain, who has now started to earn a bit of money after leaving uni, to go out and buy a new peugeot or C2 1.1 thing for 10k... which at least won't be a deathtrap
was just looking at the C2 online (not that I would ever want one you understand!)
FROM
£9,145* to £14,045*
Up to £2,450 Cashback
Split folding rear seat
ABS with Electronic Brakeforce Distribution
RDS stereo radio/CD player
Or £2,000 scrappage cashback* for your qualifying old car
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Technically it won't matter to most manufacturers as they increased their prices by £1000 a couple of months ago to counter act the week pound. So they are losing nothing at the moment.
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If i were to scrap an old car, do i get a cheque or whatever from the scrapyard/someone else, or do i get a certificate to give to a dealer. ie, does the £2000 HAVE to go to a NEW car?
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Yes, this scheme is only for brand new UNREGISTERED cars.
Dan :)
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you also have to own the car for over 12 months before you can use it against the brand new car...a brand new seat ibiza 130bhp tdi for £10000 becomes £8000 plus 3yr warranty, and 3yr MOT free...these are the deals likely to tempt some people...
saying that my mate is still looking at Cupra R's :cool:
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The car companies will increse their prices in line with the increased cost, big companies don't ever lose money from Govt interferance.
Just like with the VAT increase, I erm, "am familiar" with a company who put prices down to the 10% then over the next 3 weeks prices went back up accordingly to actually increase profit. They aren't stupid :lipsrsealed:
I think you will find you are offered a scrappage allowance or a "too good to be true" money off offer based on increased original prices.
(Not that it affects me in the slightest)
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Does anyone on here think that in a time of recession possibly since the crash in 1929 that this is nothing more than a gimmik to put people in more debt and gets the govt straight cash.
Could be more parts for our classics though.
Yep...It's a great scheme :drool:
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Now that more details have come out, I agree with most that this really isn't going to make too much of a difference, and may in fact make things worse. It helped increase sales in Germany fairly substantially at the lower-mid end of the market, but the rules there are subtly, but importantly different:
-Government gives the full 2500 EUR to the buyer, meaning that car companies can continue to offer their own discounts (in the UK the car companies have to pay £1000 of the £2000 total)
-Applies to all cars over 9 years old (in the UK it is over 10 years)
-Can be used on towards cars less than a year old (in the UK it is brand new only)
Critics against the plan have stated a number of issues, some of which are already prevalent in countries where the scheme applies (I realise some of these have already been touched upon in this thread!):
-Companies that rely in fixing and maintaining older vehicles will see business drop as older cars are taken off the road. This also includes parts companies, who are hit twice - first of all because there will be fewer old cars for their parts (smaller market), and secondly because of the influx of used parts from scrapped cars (more competition). Karmann has already filed for insolvency (of course this cannot be wholly caused by the scrap scheme, but it could be a taste of the future) and a number of UK car parts firms are already struggling before this (Lucas anyone?). Ironically the garages least likely to be affected by a drop in the number of old cars to repair are those owned by dealerships, as they usually service cars less than 10 years old - indeed they may benefit in the medium term once the new cars are out of warranty.
-Environmentalists claim that more environmental damage will be caused by the 'waste' generated from scrapping cars prematurely and replacing them, than the positive effect by having proportionatly more cars with lower emissions. The environmental benefit claim by the government is a moot point anyway. Gone are the days when cars lasted no more than about 10 years - most cars designed in the 90's were built to last far longer than their 70's/80's predecessors, and certainly longer than 10 years. With better drag coefficients, and techs such as catalytic converters, fuel injection on petrol as standard and common rail injection on diesels appearing in the 90's, cars were already becoming far cleaner and more efficient. Is an 'S' or 'T' reg really a banger? If cars over 10 years old were so bad that they needed to be scrapped, wouldn't there be fewer of these cars on our roads? Maybe car companies are a victim of their own success in improving reliabilty and build quality? Of course the government knows that these cars are fine - if they weren't, people would be out buying new(er) cars anyay. Also, by setting the bar at 10 years, which as I said, is too early for a lot of well-built cars, they are ensuring that the scheme will cover a large enough proportion of road users to still be effective. I know the government never claimed that the main reason behind this was the environment, but let's not kid ourselves, the environment can in no way be used as a justification for this.
-The scheme may actually lead to an increase in prices of new cars. The car companies are still losing money from over-production over the last couple of years, and many are now in debt, and being charged interest, which now becomes a factored cost when working out prices and profit margins on new cars. They can't afford to give cars away, as for many these unsold cars represent most of the remaining capital in the business. There will be a level below which they cannot afford to sell a car. Due to a drop in sales, most companies were probably pretty close to this margin already. Being asked to put a £1000 incentive for some new buyers will be too much for some, and they will raise their prices accordingly to absorb the cost. The guy who's just srapped a 10 year old car will still be £1000 'better off' (I use the term loosely) thanks to the gov money, so it's not too bad for him. But what about the guy who has a car which is 3 years old, and is looking for a new one? Suddenly he's forking out £1000 more than he would have, and now may not buy new at all. He may keep his car a bit longer, or even go for one nearly new to save some money, which in turn will lead to:
-The price of used cars may increase. Partly because of the reason above (more demand for the same number of cars) but also because there are fewer used cars at the bottom end of the market, because some have been scrapped earlier than they would have been. Ironically, this may actually mean that more older cars may be worth more than the £2000 saving, which will make the scheme less effective (could this feedback loop be deliberate?)
-Is it really wise to promote a large expenditure for families, when we are all being told that we have over-borrowed in the last decade? The government hopes that increasing lending will help the country out of recession. The scheme may create more demand for credit from those hoping to borrow against new cars, and I'm sure that the car company's finance department, or a risky loans company will be happy to help. The problem is that job losses are likely to increase on the way out of the recession - and bad debts on the cars because of this may drag recovering car companies down with them. Plus, I thought we were all being told that we've borrowed too much already, and it's time to pay it back?
-Most cars over 10 years old are likely owned by households who can't afford a new car unless on finance (are unable to buy new) or as a second car (are unwilling to buy new)
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I just saw an advert from Fiat. . . . .
Trade in your old car for a grand and get a Fiat Panda Eco for £4995
why would you want this!!
(http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/GREENNEWS/NewsPhotos/fiat%20panda%20eco.jpg)
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Only me or are those wheels "photoshoped" on?? :shocked: