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Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: pitman4u on 18 March 2009, 11:37
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hey guys im after some advice and urgent!!!
i bought my mk5 gti about 5weeks ago now from a vw dealer. the thing is that they undercharged my card by £1000!!!!
i didnt realise until a few weeks ago as i have receipts saying i had paid the full amount.
anyway i have just had a call from vw saying that i owe them money because they made a mistake!! does anyone have any advice on where i stand legally regarding paying it back. obviously i dont want to pay it back as it was their mistake and also the fact it was 5weeks ago i no longer have that money spare anyway!!! im currently trying to get in touch with citizens advice to see where i stand with this.
any advice appreciated lads
cheers
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What price is on all the documentation paperwork? If all the paper work states the correct price then you probably have to pay it. If all the paper work states the incorrect price ( - £1000) then tell them to f**k off :D
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all i have are receipts saying that ive paid the full amount for the car. like i say i didnt even realise until a few weeks ago and my card bill came in. just got me log book in this post this morning aswell!! if i cant get anywhere with citizens advice i reckon ill give my solicitor a ring.
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Is there no figure saying how much you paid / should have paid?
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What amount did you agree to pay for the car?
IMO, morally, you should pay... you know (and have admitted in you original post) that you were undercharged. I know you have only just realised but if the boot was on the other foot and you had accidentally been overcharged you would be demanding that they pay you back.
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I see what your saying however, if there is a chance that you will get £1000 off then id chace it, fook the morals lol.
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haha thats wot im thinking. it doesnt state on any of the receipts the agreed price. i have two receipts - one for the £500 deposit i paid in cash and the other saying ive paid £12900, its also written in words. = total £13400. however on checking my visa receipts they have only charged £11900 to it.
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What amount did you agree to pay for the car?
IMO, morally, you should pay... you know (and have admitted in you original post) that you were undercharged. I know you have only just realised but if the boot was on the other foot and you had accidentally been overcharged you would be demanding that they pay you back.
Im afraid I agree.
As you know you have been undercharged you may as well pay it off and be done with it, rather then go through more hassle.
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If the receipt says £13400 but you have only been charged £11900 then you will have to pay it so might aswell get it over and done with.
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as i said tho i no longer have £1000 spare! it was paid on my card that is now maxed due to other bills.i only realised when my card bill came in. ill see what the citizens advice have to say and if legally i dont have to pay it bk then there is not a chance they will be gettin it!! morals can prove very expensive in the middle of a recession! :grin:
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the receipt says i have paid the full amount of £13400. but my credit card bill shows i have paid £11900 + £500 i paid cash = £12400
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Isn't the receipt proof of purchase!? there cock up!, Hold out as long as possible, these big companies would!!!
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"it doesnt state on any of the receipts the agreed price. i have two receipts - one for the £500 deposit i paid in cash and the other saying ive paid £12900, its also written in words. = total £13400. however on checking my visa receipts they have only charged £11900 to it."
So in spite of what you say it does. You were expecting to pay £13,400 and have only paid £12,400 - I know the card receipts will say what was put through too...
It could be argued that your legal position is pretty unsound. You agreed a price and know (now) that you have underpaid. It could be argued that what you are considering constitutes theft under the Theft Act, 1968: a person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.
If you haven't got the money then that is a different matter... I'm sure that the dealership will come to an arrangement with you as they have made a mistake
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hmm i think theft is goin a bit far. vw a made a cock up and i have been undercharged. of which i no longer have the funds to pay it back after over 5 weeks of purchasing the car!!! i mite make them an offer of £2.50 a week :grin:
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corgi has a good point - I dont think he's taking it too far at all TBH.
At the end of they day, you agreed to purchase a car for £13,400. That was all fully agreed by both parties.
Your receipts indicate you have paid £12,400.
If you even took this to court, do you really expect them to say its VW's fault and waive the last £1000??
At the end of the day its money outstanding, and it will need to be paid.
What I would do is state that its their mistake and that you want interest free finance or somet to pay the remaining balance back since you no longer have the funds. They are not obliged to do this, but may consider it out of goodwill. If not, you'll have to pay the £1000 up front.
The previous company i worked for had some employee's leave. The company continued to pay them for 6 months after they had left!! Obviously these leavers just pocketed the money and kept quiet. Nevertheless, when the error was highlighted at the end of financial year, the leavers still had to pay back every penny - even though they paid back small amounts over a longer period of time - fact is it was not their money so they had to pay it back.
Same here - that last £1000 is not your money, whether VW claimed it after 5 weeks or 5 months. You could take it to court, but I pretty much guarantee you wouldnt win any case.
Sorry mate, I dont mean to put a dampner on things and it would be great if you could pocket it, but it just wont happen.
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You've been made aware that you underpaid. You still owe them the money but you should be able to reach an agreement in your favour eg £20 over 52 weeks or something like that, so you pay the money but not all at once. They should be understanding.
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It’s very simple, you should pay. You know you’ve underpaid, they know you’ve underpaid, the courts would not be in your favour. Why go through all the hassle (& expense) of solicitors and the courts. Also you’ll lose all the goodwill from your dealer.
Why not nip in there and see the dealer principle, explain that it’s their f*ck up, pay the remainder and hope they offer you a free future service for the mess-up.
IMO :smiley:
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Funnily enough, I was speaking about something very similar to this to my friend who is in the police just a few days ago. Legally, as you know you have underpaid them and they have now requested the money, if you choose not to pay them they could take you to court on theft grounds and really u wouldnt have a leg to stand on. Believe it or not this also works the same with restaurant bills - if a restaurant has undercharged you and you realise this, then legally you should inform the restaurant and pay the amount owed. However, in that instance proving you knew would be almost impossible. Unfortunately, as you had already agreed a price and paid a deposit towards it, then this can't be applied and im afraid you're going to have to pay. But, like others have said this is their mistake, and i'm sure you will be able to come to some form of agreement with the dealership. All the best!
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Mate, just pay it, borrow it from somewhere...its not worth the hassle, ccj's etc all will impact on your credit rating for years....just get on with it and pay. Youll sleep better at night.
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hmm i think theft is goin a bit far. vw a made a cock up and i have been undercharged. of which i no longer have the funds to pay it back after over 5 weeks of purchasing the car!!! i mite make them an offer of £2.50 a week :grin:
Read the Theft Act 1968... you'll find that I'm not.
You agreed a price, that is a contract and is binding under law. I'm very surprised that you didn't realise you'd been underchgarged by £1000 when the transaction took place and you received your credit card receipt but in any case you have taken ownership of £1000 that you admit doesn't belong to you.
The Act states: Any assumption by a person of the rights of an owner amounts to an appropriation, and this includes, where he has come by the property (innocently or not) without stealing it, any later assumption of a right to it by keeping or dealing with it as owner. In other words, it doesn't matter how you came across the property (money in this case) that (you freely admit is not yours) you are assuming ownership of and whether you came across it as an innocent mistake, the fact is that the law views the money as not belonging to you and therefore if they reported you for theft you'd be on a very stciky wicket.
The example above regarding being paid sums of money when you are no longer entitled is relevant...
You asked for some advice, I don't care whether you take it or not, but when you are offered good advice have the good grace to consider it or in future it may not be forthcoming...
Just to re-iterate: Come to an arrangement with the dealership to pay them the money, otherwise, I can see them taking you to court and winning...
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would you be using this dealer for your services etc? if it all turns nasty how much hassle would it be to go to another vw dealer?
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So in theory if you go into a shop and buy something and hand over £5 if the shop keeper over changes and gives you change from £10 you have stolen £5 from him! :undecided: :grin:
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Yes a no, the main difference in this case is there will be a trail of paper work which no doubt would have been signed by both parties.
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Pay them the money mate - you agreed a deal and that's it. Yes, they made a cock-up but you're still in the wrong. If I were you I would pay the full amount asap, as you do not own full title to the car and legally, it ain't yours. Perish the thought that some representative of the dealership may just tootle around your gaff one night and and take the car away - easy for them to code another key :rolleyes:
Do not let this matter drag on and go through the civil courts, you will lose big time and any judgement against you will have a massive impact on your future credit ratings and ability to get any loans.
We all slag of dealers but they also have a living to make and the missing £1k was probably more than their profit in this deal, especially in the current financial climate.
Do the right thing and pay up :wink:
Cass
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So in theory if you go into a shop and buy something and hand over £5 if the shop keeper over changes and gives you change from £10 you have stolen £5 from him! :undecided: :grin:
Technically, yes.
The Theft Act 1968 says that if you appropriate something that isn't yours (in the case you describe £5) even if you came by it innocently but either permanently deprive or intend to permanently deprive then that is theft.
In practice I suspect that most in that situation would not realise and forget about it.
In the case under discussion here, the dealership realise that they have made a mistake, the purchaser realises that the dealership has made a mistake (quite how he didn't realise on the day I'm not sure) and has admitted as much on here. I'm pretty certain that assuming they have the paperwork if this went ot court pitman4u would be forced to pay up.
As stated earlier if he doesn't have the money he should contact the dealership to sort out a solution before it becomes legally messy... I'm sure that they be prepared to come to a compromise.
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What about the £1000 pound you paid cash :wink: :grin: :grin:
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So in theory if you go into a shop and buy something and hand over £5 if the shop keeper over changes and gives you change from £10 you have stolen £5 from him! :undecided: :grin:
Corgi is correct, TECHNICALLY this is classed as theft believe it or not; just like the restaurant example i gave earlier. But similarly, in this instance there really is no way of proving your guilt so you aren't going to get done for it. Where paperwork and signatures are involved its another story.
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dont pay mate hold out as long as you can, if there was a slight chance that i could have got away with not paying an extra 1000 when i got mine id have jumped at the chance lol its there mistake not yours, and like r32uk said, what about the 1000 cash you paid along with the 500 deposit on your card, wink wink
some of us, myself included are in hard times at the moment and would try anything to save a few quid, not all of us are loaded like some on here :laugh:
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If you thought you had hammered your credit card by the original amount how can you have spent the extra money?
Did you not budget for the original amount?
If I was the garage I'd just charge your card an extra £1,000. And not bother telling you.
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dont pay mate hold out as long as you can,
some of us, myself included are in hard times at the moment and would try anything to save a few quid, not all of us are loaded like some on here :laugh:
I love this... you'd be the first to complain if the boot was on the other foot...
I'll bet a pound to a penny that pitman4u would have noticed straight away if the dealership had accidentally over charged him by £1000.
I'm not going to discuss on here wehther I'm loaded or not what I will say is that your moral standards are different to mine.
As I understand it it is unlikely that any criminal offence is provable in this case but it is highly likely (if not almost a certainty) that if this went to court the dealership would win and pitman4u would not only be left with £1000 to pay but also court costs and his own legal costs..
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In a way it's you that's been inconvenienced by the dealer not charging the correct amount? You're now faced with the problem of how you are going to pay the shortfall.
In my (totally un-qualified) opinion, a court wouldn't punish you if you show you are keen to pay off the amount but can't pay it all at once. I therefore agree with another post that you should offer to pay it off in instalments and explain that due to their mistake you're facing financial problems and you'd appreciate their understanding and perhaps they could reduce the amount owed too.
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If they had overcharged you instead , how would you feel.
No doubt you would be slagging them off to all
Just be honest allways best policy in my book as I myself manage a shop.
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The risk you run by not paying is that your Credit Rating could be adversely affected for some time; in this day and age that's a serious
sanction.
Go talk to them - I'm sure they'll reach an amicable agreement over repayment?
At the end of the day the Dealer will probably want to avoid the hassle/cost of litigation?
Honesty is always the best policy - and who knows, you may want some 'goodwill' at a later date from your dealer?
It's your Credit Rating at risk - and not those advocating a 'cavalier' attitude :wink:
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When I had completed my student placement for a large firm they continued to pay me and a friend for about 6 months after we had left.
They only realised about 8 months down the line and sent us both a letter demanding the extra amount they paid us to be paid back in full asap. My mate took this letter down to the cab who told him it sounded like a threatening letter, and that the company had not followed the correct procedure in reclaiming their money.
He wrote back telling them that he did not appreciate the demand of the full sum, and that they would get £2.50 per month until the full amount was repaid (approx£5k :grin:). They wrote back and agreed. I never received any further letters :wink:
oh yes... and the morale of the story is seek some legal advice. Its their error so its likely that they will accept the money anyway you choose to give it to them :wink:
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i like that r32uk couldnt have said it better myself just send them a fiver a month or something as said earlier its threr mistake and you have now been inconvienienced with all this hastle and agro :smiley:
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keep the cash, pay it back in very small amounts per month! as r32uk said! :smiley:
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keep the cash, pay it back in very small amounts per month! as r32uk said! :smiley:
As I said, come to a reasonable arrangement with them... don't try to shaft them. If they think that you are taking the mickey they will drag you through court and the courts will make you pay a reasonable amount... and probably the costs... and then there's the costs of your own legal representation. Offer to clear the debt in a reasonable timeframe.
Yes, the dealership made a mistake but pitman4u still has their money. How would you feel if they had overcharged you and then they had said, "We'll pay you back, £5 per month."? I know... you'd be all over this forum complaining about how unfair it was.
Pitman4u still hasn't explained how he didn't realise at the time that he had been undercharged by £1000 - I'm damn sure I'd have noticed...
It has been pointed out to me by a solicitor friend of mine that, in law, the ownership of the vehicle might not have transferred (and before you start bleating on, the V5 does not prove ownership, only who the registered keeper is) as the contract to purchase the vehicle has not been completed; the agreed purchase price has not been paid... i.e. there is a good chance that in law the dealership still own the car.
You can take whatever action you like, I guess, but you need to be aware of the potential consequences...
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Agree with what your saying Corgi mate... but in all honesty nearly every person on this forum has been shafted by a dealership at some point. Be it with sub standard workmanship, misleading information, and general lack of satisfactory levels of customer service. Wouldnt hurt to give them a little of their own tonic back to them. I know I would certainly draw out the payments even if I could afford to pay them back in one lump sum. :smiley:
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as i said tho i no longer have £1000 spare! it was paid on my card that is now maxed due to other bills.i only realised when my card bill came in. ill see what the citizens advice have to say and if legally i dont have to pay it bk then there is not a chance they will be gettin it!! morals can prove very expensive in the middle of a recession! :grin:
....Be honest! Tell them what your cashflow problems are and come to an arrangement to pay it off over time. Even if they made an error, from what you've said, you still owe the money.
If I was boss of the VW dealership franchise and you told me to f*ck off over this, I'd make sure you were black listed throughout the VW network AND hit you for the debt plus costs. This would include repossessing the car if possible.
Please note that you can't arbitarily decide to only pay back only very small amounts per month - You have to come to a formal agreement and if you can't agree you will doubtless have to go to court and also be means tested.
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Agree with what your saying Corgi mate... but in all honesty nearly every person on this forum has been shafted by a dealership at some point. Be it with sub standard workmanship, misleading information, and general lack of satisfactory levels of customer service. Wouldnt hurt to give them a little of their own tonic back to them. I know I would certainly draw out the payments even if I could afford to pay them back in one lump sum. :smiley:
....That doesn't justify you attempting to shaft them - It makes you as bad as those you allege as shafting you.
Besides which, you are encouraging someone to shaft a dealer who hasn't shafted him (as yet). You are painting all dealers with the same brush.
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I'm afraid you are liable for the total cost of the car (the £1000) being part of that cost. You would have signed and entered into a contract with your dealer at point of sale so my advice to you is pay it. You could however take this to the small claims court which i would not recommend as this is expensive and the chances of you keeping the outstanding monies would be next to zero. You would then have to pay the dealers court costs plus expenses if it went against you.
The dealer in turn could also take you to the small claims court. Again this would be added expense for them as well as negative publicity which i'm sure they could do without. So again my advice is to pay it.
Now you have several options with regards to this. Firstly, you could pay it off in one go, but you have already stated that you do not have the total balance funds available.
The second option is to approach the dealer and come to a mutual agreement with regards to monthly payments.
I would be very surprised if they refused to accept this as an option afterall it was there mistake.
Speak to them, explain your situation and make it clear it was there mistake not yours. They should play ball but if not, seek proper legal advice. Usually the initial consultation is free and I think they will give you more help than the C.A.Bureau
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If I was boss of the VW dealership franchise and you told me to f*ck off over this, I'd make sure you were black listed throughout the VW network AND hit you for the debt plus costs. This would include repossessing the car if possible.
Firstly I think your forgetting that this situation has come about due to an dealership error. Exactly the point i was making about them previously. Its the very fact that you as a VW dealer boss would do this.... well it stinks personally.
And on a lighter note wtf would you do once you have proved the car was yours??? Because by then I would have accidentaly left the petrol cap off and a burning cig on the back seat which I forgot to put out. :wink: :tongue:
Why not call your commercial insurance broker and ask them what they think?? I could tell you but I wouldnt want to spoil the suprise :wink:
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If I was boss of the VW dealership franchise and you told me to f*ck off over this, I'd make sure you were black listed throughout the VW network AND hit you for the debt plus costs. This would include repossessing the car if possible.
Firstly I think your forgetting that this situation has come about due to an dealership error. Exactly the point i was making about them previously. Its the very fact that you as a VW dealer boss would do this.... well it stinks personally.
....I don't agree and wouldn't waste time arguing, so I'd see you in court.
And on a lighter note wtf would you do once you have proved the car was yours??? Because by then I would have accidentaly left the petrol cap off and a burning cig on the back seat which I forgot to put out. :wink: :tongue:
....You presume too much regarding proof of ownership. Technically you may be awfully wrong.
Burning cigarettes and petrol etc would hopefully see someone locked up, and quite rightly.
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doo gooders who cares about the stealers anyway there a bunch of arseholes in most ways and if i could then id avoid them at all cost but not possible really is it, im not saying its just vw, honda are probably even worse imo oh well its a dog eat dog world lol :tongue:
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Firstly I think your forgetting that this situation has come about due to an dealership error. Exactly the point i was making about them previously. Its the very fact that you as a VW dealer boss would do this.... well it stinks personally.
....I don't agree and wouldn't waste time arguing, so I'd see you in court.
And on a lighter note wtf would you do once you have proved the car was yours??? Because by then I would have accidentaly left the petrol cap off and a burning cig on the back seat which I forgot to put out. :wink: :tongue:
....You presume too much regarding proof of ownership. Technically you may be awfully wrong.
Burning cigarettes and petrol etc would hopefully see someone locked up, and quite rightly.
How is this not a dealer error??? Did the OP type the amount into the card machine???
I wouldnt be getting locked up... its an easy enough accident to take place. Your forgetting that my insurance cover me fully comp, inc fire and theft. Does yours???
My point was that if the dealership is sympathetic to your point and their error then of course sit down and negotiate with them. However if they tell you to feck off and as RR said about be total d1cks about it then they deserve everything thats coming to them. If fact I hope they close down!
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doo gooders who cares about the stealers anyway there a bunch of arseholes in most ways and if i could then id avoid them at all cost but not possible really is it, im not saying its just vw, honda are probably even worse imo oh well its a dog eat dog world lol :tongue:
I assume you meant "they're a bunch of arseholes"...
R32UK - I congratulate you, your advice is superb... tell the dealer where to get off and if they try to reclaim their money ignore them until it gets to the point where you've lost in court and then torch the car and fraudulently claim off the insurance... seems a completely reasonable course of action to me.
I can also be sure that those of you who are slagging this dealer for off their innocent mistake have never made an mistake before. The dealer is only doing what any of you (or us) would do in their situation, trying to reclaim what is rightfully theirs.
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My point was that if the dealership is sympathetic to your point and their error then of course sit down and negotiate with them. However if they tell you to feck off and as RR said about be total d1cks about it then they deserve everything thats coming to them. If fact I hope they close down!
....I agree! The best and first move to make is towards a friendly negotiated settlement. But don't take the p!ss and expect the dealer to accept an unrealistic repayment plan without being able to back it up with acceptable documentation such as bank statements and ALL outgoings.
Yes the dealer may have, or has, made an error but your moral and legal responsibility is to seek an amicable settlement. A court will not favour you kindly if you are going to waste their time and are seen to be just trying to get away with personal financial gain as a result of what is merely a clerical error without bad intention. Each case must be heard and judged on its individual merits - You can't in fairness tar all dealerships with the same brush because of your individual experiences or prejudices. Well, you can, but you'll be in for a rough ride with little realistic hope for an outcome in your favour.
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i'd seek advice from a lawyer asn see what ur actually liable for, if ur that intent on avoiding payment .
If not arrange a payment plan and get it out the way , stuff like this always comes back to bite u in the ass!!
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As tempting as it might be to try and wrangle your way out of paying the money, whatever way you look at it you owe the dealer £1,000. You could try and take it to court but I doubt very much if you will win.
Yes, dealers can be a@@eholes at times but it really isn't worth the hassle. You owe the money so just pay it. If you don't you will most likely have a CCJ on your credit file meaning you will be fu**ed when it comes to another finance agreement or a mortgage.
I'm sure they will come to some sort of arrangement with you regarding monthly instalments, but if you start taking the p with £25 per month payments, they will not take kindly to it and you could be blacklisted.
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doo gooders who cares about the stealers anyway there a bunch of arseholes in most ways and if i could then id avoid them at all cost but not possible really is it, im not saying its just vw, honda are probably even worse imo oh well its a dog eat dog world lol :tongue:
I assume you meant "they're a bunch of arseholes"...
R32UK - I congratulate you, your advice is superb... tell the dealer where to get off and if they try to reclaim their money ignore them until it gets to the point where you've lost in court and then torch the car and fraudulently claim off the insurance... seems a completely reasonable course of action to me.
I can also be sure that those of you who are slagging this dealer for off their innocent mistake have never made an mistake before. The dealer is only doing what any of you (or us) would do in their situation, trying to reclaim what is rightfully theirs.
Think you need to go back and read the posts properly before commenting. I was speaking hypothetically and responding to RR post about black listing and barring me from all VW dealerships. :wink
If they were to go to those extremes, then there would be nothing to stop someone doing as I posted above. My point being that the dealer should look to seek an amicable resolve as opposed to demanding the money back... which they are not allowed to do!
As the original poster said "the funds are no longer available" so a payment agreement is their only real option. I see no point in the argument that they could black list you and barr you from other VW dealerships for a car you bought in good faith paying the full amount agreed (to the best of your knowledge).
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You'll have to pay it sometime, tell them cash flow and see what they say, but if you want my advice just pay up, you owe it. As I said before it's not worth the credit rating impact or the threat of legal action. If it goes to court you will be liable to pay up and probably court costs too. Call them with your credit card number and get on with driving and enjoying your car.
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cheers for the comments opinions fellas, ive decided to pay up (after consulting my solicitor :grin:) he said that legally i am obliged to pay up and that they can file a ccj againts me. he said on the other hand i could hold out & see if they will take me to court over £1000 or just let it go, which isnt likely. like some said its not worth damaging my credit score as its taken me ages to get it sorted!!!
anyway i now have 1000 notes to find!!! i genuinely didnt realise id been underchaged and the way our lass spends money, 1000 notes seem to vanish pretty quickly!!
anyway ill see if i can get a free service out of it or summat as a goodwill for saving the salemans job!! :grin:
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^^^^
Most definitely the wisest decision.
If you are genuinely strapped for cash you could politely ask if you could pay it in say 2 or 3 instalments and offer to put confirmation in writing. Depending on their year-end accounting etc, they may be able to accommodate you.
:afro:
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I agree. If they are a decent lot they may be willing to sort somet out.
Then again, they may try take you down the finance route to get more out of you in terms of interest!
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Wise move pitman :wink:
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:cool: a sensible decision, and try RR's approach, tell them your card is now maxxed out and pay by a couple or four installments. Let us know how you get on if you do :smiley:
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yeah i rang them & said i need a few days to see if i can pull a few favours and get the money 2gether, at least until i get paid, so if i cant get the full amount they will have to accept it in payments. ill try me luck with a free service or summat tho if i do get the full amount now. :wink:
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Sorry to drag this one back up but, hypothetically speaking (of course you should pay), how did they prove you only paid £500 cash? Couldn't you have said that you paid £1500 cash and they took the rest on the card, since your receipt specifies the full balance?
Apologies if I missed this part of the discussion as I haven't read the thread in its entirety.
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i had a receipt for £500 i paid in cash & another for the remaining balance. the sticking point was that the invoice had the full total agreed price. my solicitor said that if this was also wrong then i wouldnt be obliged to pay it, but as the invoice was correct, and a mistake had been made, then i still owed them the money mistake or no mistake.
all payed up now anyway :smiley: and i was pleased wiv the original price in the first place to be honest.