GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: topher on 13 February 2009, 10:13
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Some of you may be aware I've been following HPA's DSG software flashes for some time and have been in constant contact with them regarding UK sales. It seems we're still a long way from that happening but UK company Regal Autosport (http://www.vag-tuner.com/) have released their very own DSG software upgrade and Stage 1 is now available to the public.
The advantages of the Stage 1 software are:
* Raised Rev limits in excess of 7000RPM
* Shorter reaction time on Manual shifts
* Two stage throttle sensitivity for differentiation between hard throttle use and Full throttle.
Flashed through the OBD port this is an entirely un-intrusive upgrade which will work along side any current remap you already have.
Future developments of the software will include raised torque limits of the DSG box with higher clamping forces and improved launch control functionality.
As a rough ball park figure to gauge interest, Regal are willing to offer the Stage 1 DSG upgrade to a golfgti.co.uk group buy at a price of £350 (Normal retail price £450) if 10 people purchase, with the possibility of further savings if even more members wish to upgrade.
As a side note, Regal also provide their own in-house ECU remaps which would also be available at a discounted price if purchased at the same time as the DSG upgrade, but for now lets gauge the interest in the DSG upgrade.
A representative of Regal has joined the forum and will be able to answer any further queries regarding the software in this thread. So.. names down people!
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I wouldnt mind asking a few questions...
The advantages of the Stage 1 software are:
* Raised Rev limits in excess of 7000RPM
* Shorter reaction time on Manual shifts
* Two stage throttle sensitivity for differentiation between hard throttle use and Full throttle.
Why would rev limits in excess of 7000RPM be beneficial? If you take a stock power curve for the 2.0 TFSi it tails off well before 7000RPM. Take a looky here at an Edition 30 on the rollers http://www.johnoldfield.dsl.pipex.com/images/weblog/std_ed30_awesome_june2008_dyno_large.jpg (http://www.johnoldfield.dsl.pipex.com/images/weblog/std_ed30_awesome_june2008_dyno_large.jpg)
I'd be very interested to hear about the two stage thorttle sensivity as I dont really think much to the stock "kick-down" system. When it says two-stage can you explain that anymore? This is where imo the DSG system could be improved - it's use of the throttle position sensor.
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just out of curiosity, does anyone know how much a new DSG gear box replacement is?
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Thread cleaned up.. let's try and keep this relevant shall we?
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Comparing it with the HPA map, I'd be interested to know :
1. If the rev limiter is upped to 7000rpm do you need to have an ECU remap as well ? as I thought the standard ECU map limited the revs as well ?
2. What exactly does the two stage throttle response do and how does it work in practice ? Does it still kickdown in all DSG modes ?
3. Are there any reviews / test drives yet ?
4. Is Launch Control changed at all ?
5. Can the rev limit rpm value be customised to any customer chosen value ?
Cheers
Jonny
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Thread cleaned up.. let's try and keep this relevant shall we?
....I would have thought that forum members' opinions about Regal are highly relevant.
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Thread cleaned up.. let's try and keep this relevant shall we?
....I would have thought that forum members' opinions about Regal are highly relevant.
Maybe they aren't relevant to this thread - of course we could start a separate thread where they WOULD be relevant :evil: :evil: :evil: I'm still smarting over the fact that my S3 intercooler thread was wiped out instead of offending comments by a certain forum member being removed like was done here... arbitrary rules methinks :rolleyes:
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This one?
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=104330.0
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Thread cleaned up.. let's try and keep this relevant shall we?
....I would have thought that forum members' opinions about Regal are highly relevant.
As illyun said, not in this thread, but feel free to start a new thread in chat-vw to ask others their opinion of the company. Whatever personal gripe you may have with them is entirely irrelevant to this group buy offer. I have serious personal issues with VWR but you won't catch me on my soapbox every time someone mentions them, especially not if they're offering 100 quid off something.
Illyun I assume you mean your post about your CEL not the intercooler thread.. well that was binned because it was actually you, in your second post, who lit the blue touch paper and instigated the whole situation.
Anyway enough of that, let's remain on topic as PMs are the place to discuss that sort of thing.
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I wouldnt mind asking a few questions...
The advantages of the Stage 1 software are:
* Raised Rev limits in excess of 7000RPM
* Shorter reaction time on Manual shifts
* Two stage throttle sensitivity for differentiation between hard throttle use and Full throttle.
Why would rev limits in excess of 7000RPM be beneficial? If you take a stock power curve for the 2.0 TFSi it tails off well before 7000RPM. Take a looky here at an Edition 30 on the rollers http://www.johnoldfield.dsl.pipex.com/images/weblog/std_ed30_awesome_june2008_dyno_large.jpg (http://www.johnoldfield.dsl.pipex.com/images/weblog/std_ed30_awesome_june2008_dyno_large.jpg)
I'd be very interested to hear about the two stage thorttle sensivity as I dont really think much to the stock "kick-down" system. When it says two-stage can you explain that anymore? This is where imo the DSG system could be improved - it's use of the throttle position sensor.
Rev limits to 7,100 revs would be very beneficial to a DSG ED30. The K04 turbo is capable of making more power above the 6k limit you are talking about. Manuals continue making power over the 6k limit, but the DSG prepares for changing gear and inhibits power development over 6k in readiness for an upchange and disengagement of the clutchpack. Raising the change level means that you free up an extra 1k of revs for the power to be fully utilised.
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Rev limits to 7,100 revs would be very beneficial to a DSG ED30. The K04 turbo is capable of making more power above the 6k limit you are talking about. Manuals continue making power over the 6k limit, but the DSG prepares for changing gear and inhibits power development over 6k in readiness for an upchange and disengagement of the clutchpack. Raising the change level means that you free up an extra 1k of revs for the power to be fully utilised.
....Would you expect any extra stresses on the clutches by freeing up revs for more power?
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In the example I linked to they only ran to about 6700/6800RPM. Sadly it doesnt say if it's a manual or DSG though. But if its a manual then I would be wanting to know why they only went to 6700/6800RPM???
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Rev limits to 7,100 revs would be very beneficial to a DSG ED30. The K04 turbo is capable of making more power above the 6k limit you are talking about. Manuals continue making power over the 6k limit, but the DSG prepares for changing gear and inhibits power development over 6k in readiness for an upchange and disengagement of the clutchpack. Raising the change level means that you free up an extra 1k of revs for the power to be fully utilised.
....Would you expect any extra stresses on the clutches by freeing up revs for more power?
Obviously you would have more stresses, but it is more the torque what is the issue with DSG boxes and by peak power at high revs, the torque has dropped off considerably. :smiley:
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In the example I linked to they only ran to about 6700/6800RPM. Sadly it doesnt say if it's a manual or DSG though. But if its a manual then I would be wanting to know why they only went to 6700/6800RPM???
John's car is a manual and I was there when he ran that. He was stock at the time and the DSG remap is more akin to be paired up with a modified car like mine that is running more bolt on applications that allow power to be continually developed higher in the rev range. The most noticeable bolt on is the HPFP. :smiley:
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The most noticeable bolt on is the HPFP. :smiley:
No, it's the nut behind the steering wheel... :wink:
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The most noticeable bolt on is the HPFP. :smiley:
No, it's the nut behind the steering wheel... :wink:
.... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: - You've obviously met Hurdy! :evil:
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Actually I have...
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Ah right well I see how the stock FP could run into trouble fuelling for the higher rev's. But as for a HPFP, I'm not planning on modding to that sort of level. Breathing mods is as far as I think I'll go. Would be interesting to see the A/F ratio's at those high RPM's though on the stock pump.
But still, I'm very interested in the way the DSG remap would improve the kick-down system.
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But still, I'm very interested in the way the DSG remap would improve the kick-down system.
....I have to say that I've never quite understood why there is a kick-down system on the DSG - Throttle plus paddleshift is instant and superfast....And reliable!
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Ah right well I see how the stock FP could run into trouble fuelling for the higher rev's. .
The stock HPFP should not run into trouble at high revs, it's the low/mid range where it can't provide enough fuel to keep up the fuel rail pressure.
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This one?
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=104330.0
Err.. no.. another one :embarassed:
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Thread cleaned up.. let's try and keep this relevant shall we?
....I would have thought that forum members' opinions about Regal are highly relevant.
Illyun I assume you mean your post about your CEL not the intercooler thread.. well that was binned because it was actually you, in your second post, who lit the blue touch paper and instigated the whole situation.
Anyway enough of that, let's remain on topic as PMs are the place to discuss that sort of thing.
err no.. that was TT I seem to recall :rolleyes: Anyway, let's end this as its not relevant. I'm sure the Regal software is ok, but its just not for me.
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Rev limits to 7,100 revs would be very beneficial to a DSG ED30. The K04 turbo is capable of making more power above the 6k limit you are talking about. Manuals continue making power over the 6k limit, but the DSG prepares for changing gear and inhibits power development over 6k in readiness for an upchange and disengagement of the clutchpack. Raising the change level means that you free up an extra 1k of revs for the power to be fully utilised.
....Would you expect any extra stresses on the clutches by freeing up revs for more power?
Good question. :afro:
So, Yes. If the gear change point is, say, 1000rpm higher, then then the corresponding 'engaging' of the clutch will also be higher too. This usually means a higher level of torque - so yes, the clutches will be stressed slightly more. However, if the revised DSG software also somehow modifies both an actual increase in speed which the clutch clamps, along with a greater clamping pressure, then these potential increases in stresses could actually be eliminated. Some live datalogging of clutch engagement would be very useful to confirm this very valid concern.
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Ah right well I see how the stock FP could run into trouble fuelling for the higher rev's. But as for a HPFP, I'm not planning on modding to that sort of level. Breathing mods is as far as I think I'll go. Would be interesting to see the A/F ratio's at those high RPM's though on the stock pump.
But still, I'm very interested in the way the DSG remap would improve the kick-down system.
What don't you like about the DSG kick-down? I personally think it is one of the best kick-downs around. Best start a new thread though! :wink:
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But still, I'm very interested in the way the DSG remap would improve the kick-down system.
....I have to say that I've never quite understood why there is a kick-down system on the DSG - Throttle plus paddleshift is instant and superfast....And reliable!
Paddle shift down is NOT as quick, nor instant like true kick-down. Paddle shift can only work sequentially, whereas kick-down can completely skip cogs.
Anyway, OT for this thread, :wink: apart from actually clarifying what the Regal software does to the existing DSG kick-down.
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^^^^
Then I best test kick-down out for myself and see what I think.
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I'm going to wait until I see if anyone blows their transmission :grin: :grin: :grin:
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Been out very early this morning (5:30am) and tried kick-down. I got wheelspin and lit up the TC which was very quickly brought under control with the help of the Quaife, WALK, suspension, and without any juddering, but I must say I prefer the smoother driving style of better anticipation and using the paddles to make fast acceleration without the drama of kick-down.
In the past I've sometimes double clicked the paddles to drop 2 gears, probably not as fast etc as kick-down but I feel I've now learnt to be more constantly in the optimum gear (from driver training) and don't need to do this anymore. Only in emergency perhaps.
Presumably this new Regal DSG software doesn't have any effect on such actions - Or does it?
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RedRobin, hadnt you used kick-down before? Or was that sarcasm I'm missing?
without the drama of kick-down.
I could'nt of summed it up any better though to be honest as to why the stock system is flawed, it is exactly that - the drama of kick-down.
The stock Kick-down system in my oppinion is somewhat unpredictable. 80% of the time it's over-sensitive or aggressive for the intended acceleration. I throttle half-way down and all of sudden I find myself rev'ing the tits off it and off into the distance when all wanted was a little low-end torque in a high gear.
I will start a topic on this later tonight (currently at work).
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Been out very early this morning (5:30am) and tried kick-down. I got wheelspin and lit up the TC which was very quickly brought under control with the help of the Quaife, WALK, suspension, and without any juddering, but I must say I prefer the smoother driving style of better anticipation and using the paddles to make fast acceleration without the drama of kick-down.
Then you need to ditch those Goodyears, and get some decent grippy french rubber! :tongue: :grin: :evil:
Seriously, though, I generally get very little wheelspin with my PS2s. But then I do tend to turn off the TC and let my right foot control the wheelspin. Can I ask what gear you were originally in, and what gear did it kick down to? And what kind of speed were you doing just before the kickdown.
Perhaps you could actually try it again with the TC turned off. :smiley: Oh, and at a slightly warmer time of day, to give your tyres a fair chance of getting warm! :tongue: :wink:
In the past I've sometimes double clicked the paddles to drop 2 gears, probably not as fast etc as kick-down but I feel I've now learnt to be more constantly in the optimum gear (from driver training) and don't need to do this anymore. Only in emergency perhaps.
You have sort of hit the nail on the head. Under ideal driving situations, then you are correct in that you should be paddling down, before you actually need to accelerate - and this should normally not be a problem for any delay in say going from 6th to 5th, 5th to 4th, and 4th to 3rd - etc. And if it is only one cog you need to drop, then the paddles are a perfect answer, and probably better than the kickdown.
But on the flipside, there are a few valid reasons why kickdown is preffered (rightly or wrongly) to using the paddles. The first, and most obvious is simply someone who has come from a conventional auto, and has never actually had any kind of 'tiptronic' function (be that paddles, or the floor mounted shift lever). If my grey matter recalls correctly, didn't you come from an auto beemer, and never used the GTI paddles for the first 30k miles?
Another reason to use the kickdown - maybe you are trundling along at 40mph in a long queue of traffic, with a pesky caravan up front, and you have sort of given up trying to get by - so just leave the DSG 6th gear (be that in manual or auto mode). And suddenly, just like someone parting the sea, a gap appears, you really haven't got time to be paddling down 3 or 4 cogs, so nailing the loud pedal instantly gives you the lowest possible gear for max acceleration. So this instance of using kickdown would be way quicker than paddling down. :nerd:
So, all I am trying to say, is that both paddle shifting down, and using the kickdown each have their own advantages and disadvantages - and just one particular method isn't always 100% the correct one to use at all times. :smiley:
Presumably this new Regal DSG software doesn't have any effect on such actions - Or does it?
But I really can't understand what particular 'issue' with the kickdown you don't like - or would like Regal to 'solve'! :huh:
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Been out very early this morning (5:30am) and tried kick-down. I got wheelspin and lit up the TC which was very quickly brought under control with the help of the Quaife, WALK, suspension, and without any juddering, but I must say I prefer the smoother driving style of better anticipation and using the paddles to make fast acceleration without the drama of kick-down.
Then you need to ditch those Goodyears, and get some decent grippy french rubber! :tongue: :grin: :evil:
Seriously, though, I generally get very little wheelspin with my PS2s. But then I do tend to turn off the TC and let my right foot control the wheelspin. Can I ask what gear you were originally in, and what gear did it kick down to? And what kind of speed were you doing just before the kickdown.
Perhaps you could actually try it again with the TC turned off. :smiley: Oh, and at a slightly warmer time of day, to give your tyres a fair chance of getting warm! :tongue: :wink:
....I'm afraid that I never turn off the TC (ESP button) on public roads. The TC light only momentarily flickered before all was under control - Really smooth and doubtless helped by my VWR Quaife! :wink:
Yes, my tyres had only done about 6 miles and have just under 4mm on the fronts.
I was in 5th (expecting a kick-down to 3rd) at about 50 mph - All in D-mode.
I'll have to do more kick-down testing but it's not my normal style of driving.
In the past I've sometimes double clicked the paddles to drop 2 gears, probably not as fast etc as kick-down but I feel I've now learnt to be more constantly in the optimum gear (from driver training) and don't need to do this anymore. Only in emergency perhaps.
You have sort of hit the nail on the head. Under ideal driving situations, then you are correct in that you should be paddling down, before you actually need to accelerate - and this should normally not be a problem for any delay in say going from 6th to 5th, 5th to 4th, and 4th to 3rd - etc. And if it is only one cog you need to drop, then the paddles are a perfect answer, and probably better than the kickdown.
But on the flipside, there are a few valid reasons why kickdown is preffered (rightly or wrongly) to using the paddles. The first, and most obvious is simply someone who has come from a conventional auto, and has never actually had any kind of 'tiptronic' function (be that paddles, or the floor mounted shift lever). If my grey matter recalls correctly, didn't you come from an auto beemer, and never used the GTI paddles for the first 30k miles?
Another reason to use the kickdown - maybe you are trundling along at 40mph in a long queue of traffic, with a pesky caravan up front, and you have sort of given up trying to get by - so just leave the DSG 6th gear (be that in manual or auto mode). And suddenly, just like someone parting the sea, a gap appears, you really haven't got time to be paddling down 3 or 4 cogs, so nailing the loud pedal instantly gives you the lowest possible gear for max acceleration. So this instance of using kickdown would be way quicker than paddling down. :nerd:
So, all I am trying to say, is that both paddle shifting down, and using the kickdown each have their own advantages and disadvantages - and just one particular method isn't always 100% the correct one to use at all times. :smiley:
....I understand your point and the caravan example scenario, and I agree. My driving style nowadays is that I would never follow a vehicle in 6th - It's my habit to always pop down into 5th or 4th on my approach to a slower vehicle, even when overtaking on dual carriageway. I'll pop down a cog on just the slightest hint in anticipation of something ahead - Then if it doesn't materialise I can often be back up a gear within only a few seconds - All very easy with paddles. No wonder I only get 28 mpg!
It certainly was thousands of miles before I started using the paddles but not as many as 30k! (IIRC) But this doesn't invalidate your point. I used to use S-mode for all overtakes - Odd, eh?
Obviously we all drive slightly differently and DSG offers us even more options.
Presumably this new Regal DSG software doesn't have any effect on such actions - Or does it?
But I really can't understand what particular 'issue' with the kickdown you don't like - or would like Regal to 'solve'! :huh:
....Slight misunderstanding - I was only wondering if Regal's offering included any effect on kick-down but not thinking there was a problem it could solve - Mostly because I never use it except in a percieved emergency in which I thought it could help.
:afro:
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If an admin could clean this up and put the new bits in a relevant thread like "Kick-Down Discussion" or something that would be great. Saves me copy and pasting into a new thread.
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A representative of Regal has joined the forum and will be able to answer any further queries regarding the software in this thread.
When might he appear to answer the questions ? :evil: :rolleyes: :grin:
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A representative of Regal has joined the forum and will be able to answer any further queries regarding the software in this thread.
When might he appear to answer the questions ? :evil: :rolleyes: :grin:
Yup, c'mon Toph, we need answers from Regal.