Author Topic: Prosport - results are in....Jury's out!!!!  (Read 22653 times)

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Prosport - results are in....Jury's out!!!!
« Reply #80 on: 26 October 2008, 12:01 »
I think you just need to find a reliable set of rollers Hurdy, to satisfy your curiosity and give you a bench mark.  It's not a case of who's got the biggest etc but if you take the recent case highlighted by Robin, he thinks/thought his car was running sweet, even after the miserable figure he drove it up the road coming back saying that the butt dyno thought all was well and that according to his boost guage he was still peaking at XXpsi. What has actually emarged is that he does in fact have a problem which he will need to have looked at.

....Absolutely spot on, Stu! :afro:

My history on the rollers, all at JKM to give a constant benchmark (or should I say as 'constant' as any rollers are, given all the on-the-day variables etc) : -

- Dyno run to check everything healthy as stock.
- Same day dyno run after Revo Stage1 remap.

- Dyno run a few weeks later to check how Stage1 has settled.

- 'Social' dyno gathering at JKM, essentially to compare Ed30 plots - Confirmed no significant changes for my Stage1.

- Revo installed Stage2 at their HQ, without dyno but checked via laptop on the road.

- 'Social' dyno gathering at JKM but my car plotted no different from when Stage1. So the dyno run proved very valuable (as Stu is suggesting) in revealing a problem.

- Consequently I arranged a further dyno run at JKM specifically to discover the problem. Meanwhile both Milltek and Revo had been very helpful and Milltek even replaced my sportscat before my dyno session. Data logging showed that my turbo was having to work very hard, most likely to overcome a boost leak.

- Another session has been booked at JKM to investigate further and Weston Performance, who also have Dyno-Dynamics rollers, are also keen to help with suggestions.

Regarding DSG cars on rollers, I was under the impression that operators knew how to effectively compensate/cater for DSG. I'm confident that JKM know how.
« Last Edit: 26 October 2008, 13:53 by RedRobin »
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Offline ZBOYD

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Re: Prosport - results are in....Jury's out!!!!
« Reply #81 on: 26 October 2008, 12:07 »
Quote from: Hurdy

If I'm passing Awesome next Saturday, I'll pop in and see how they are going on, but there is no way I'm going on their dyno again especially on a RR day.


Never had a problem with Awesome's RR, very repeatable figures on my last car which was REVO mapped and on this one which of course is APR mapped.

As has been discovered, being somewhat at a disadvantage yesterday on the knowledge of this forums cars and what cars were DSG or not.  Prosport seemed to struggle with how to run the DSG's on their road.  :undecided:

I've heard of manual TFSi's with the kind of mods Hurdy's has producing pretty incredible figures.  So the initial thought was well if they boost has been ramped up then it could be possible though the very high torque figure puzzled me.  Ben's earlier figure with his mods satisfied me that it was probably the more accurate of his runs. +- a few hp compared to Luca's car is where it should be really.  In fact i think Ben's ran something like that at Awesome earlier in the year too.

My own car ran 334hp 350ftlbs on its first run, and followed it with 2 runs producing 328hp 360ftlbs.  It ran 316hp and 335ftlbs in June at Prosport, since then it has had the APR intercooler and Dbilas intake fitted.  So there has been a change and it's not so huge a change that its unbelievable.

My car ran 305hp 360ftlbs on Awesome's earlier in the year, with all the stage 2 mods except the IC and Dbilas, it also ran 305hp and 320ftlbs at RSTuning on their DynoDynamics road but didn't have the fuel pump then or the stage 2 code but did have the APR 3" TBE.

At the end of the day a rolling road is a tool, its not the be all and end all.  But in my case i've not seen anything outrageous with my figures and as a result tend to believe they are fairly accurate.

I think all the manual cars can rest easy really that they got a fairly good indicator.
« Last Edit: 26 October 2008, 12:09 by ZBOYD »
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Prosport - results are in....Jury's out!!!!
« Reply #82 on: 26 October 2008, 12:08 »
I will not be putting my car on any more rolling roads again, but would attend if they are nearby/when I can get to them.

My reasoning for the last statement?...........I know my car is fast enough for me and no matter what RR I go on or what results I achieve, there will always be people who say:-

i. You went on a different day and it was colder.
ii. That dyno isn't accurate, it is overreading.
iii. there's no way you can get that figure from those mods
iv. It's DSG, so it's different
v. Mine's manual, so it's different
vi. People can bung the guy a tenner to let him change the settings.
vii. They don't like REVO/CC/APR/GIAC here and so deliberately give lower results to them

On the whole I would also say that even the manuals were a little on the high side.

Regardless of accuracy, the RR day was useful to some people, giving them indicators of their cars not performing as they should.

....I have a similar attitude to yourself, but I do think that dyno runs are very useful for checking a car's health (as well as providing an excellent excuse for a meet and a banter).

I'll be attending the Weston session on 1st November but whether I go on the rollers or not will depend on what happens the day before at JKM. Paul Weston understands the reasons for this and is most helpful.
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Offline Vtec Abuser

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Re: Prosport - results are in....Jury's out!!!!
« Reply #83 on: 26 October 2008, 12:30 »
I for one really want to go on DD rollers to put a end to all the speculation of whether or not other rollers are accurate. But JKM is ruddy miles away and just can't do next week..
Another thing is that AFAIK there isn't a Revo car going to Weston or any of the cars from yesterday either  :undecided:. So we are just going to end up with the same sort scenario as JKM's results i'd imagine..

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Offline vRStu

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Re: Prosport - results are in....Jury's out!!!!
« Reply #84 on: 26 October 2008, 12:37 »
I'd like to have come along next week but I'm already busy.

Also a point worth noting is that DD rollers aren't infalible if somone wants to see a specific result so you need to be sure the operators are doing so correctly -

http://passionford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265886

Stu

Offline ZBOYD

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Re: Prosport - results are in....Jury's out!!!!
« Reply #85 on: 26 October 2008, 12:54 »
Quote from: Hurdy

i. You went on a different day and it was colder.
ii. That dyno isn't accurate, it is overreading.
iii. there's no way you can get that figure from those mods
iv. It's DSG, so it's different
v. Mine's manual, so it's different
vi. People can bung the guy a tenner to let him change the settings.
vii. They don't like REVO/CC/APR/GIAC here and so deliberately give lower results to them


Good list of theories.

i. Temperature can make a difference based on the air density, but in most cases you would get more of an effect of this on the open road than on a RR as the flow of air is faster and more direct.  Hot days of course the air temperature can be high to start with so will not cool as effectively on cars with a lesser core of IC.  Larger the core more effective the cooling effect, even on cold days.

ii. That's a software issue, they all have different ways of calculating the data.  It's still best to compare figures on the same day against a varied selection of cars.  As long as the operator is setting it up right of course.

iii. I've heard of TFSi's making over 350hp with the same level of mods that you and I have, they can be mapped to deliver big numbers.  The 362 figure initially I could of believed based on the mapping I know CC can be quite peaky, it was the torque figure that went along with it that had me scratching my head.

iv. Well it is different, its a completely different type of gearbox (Clarkson once called it Witchcraft)
Prosport didn't really convince me they had enough experience with it to get it running right.  Didn't an S3 do a mad figure because the length of the rolling road was a bit out of balance too?

v. Again it is, but less so because you stick it in a gear and it stays put until someone grabs hold of the gear stick, pushes in the clutch and makes it go some where else.  :wink:  Is DSG manual mode truly manual? Not sure why they were changing cogs in a run? I've no experience of a DSG box so if i need to be educated then let me know.  :huh:

vi. Heard of this, and I'm sure some less unscrupulous places might even entertain it.  They must be desperate to do it and it's kind of sad really.  :undecided:

vii. Same as above really, just find that kind of sad.  Tends to be spread by off cuff comments by tuners though.  If they have to do that to push their products above others then their products are not really worth a great deal in my opinion.  I've never had an opinion of liking one product over an another and still don't.  My last car was REVO'd and was fantastic, this one is APR and equally great fun.

We are all looking for the best figures, in most cases people can't see much further than their 'peak' figures.  However I like to compare graphs and see where one car is making its power at what RPM range.  To me it's how the power is across the rev band that is of most importance.
« Last Edit: 26 October 2008, 12:57 by ZBOYD »
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Offline ZBOYD

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Re: Prosport - results are in....Jury's out!!!!
« Reply #86 on: 26 October 2008, 13:00 »
I for one really want to go on DD rollers to put a end to all the speculation of whether or not other rollers are accurate. But JKM is ruddy miles away and just can't do next week..
Another thing is that AFAIK there isn't a Revo car going to Weston or any of the cars from yesterday either  :undecided:. So we are just going to end up with the same sort scenario as JKM's results i'd imagine..

RS Tuning in Leeds have a DD road.  Used it earlier in the year and was fairly similar to Awesomes and Prosport's in terms of the figures i've seen.

Going back to RS Tuning in November, so will have visited all 3 rolling roads again with the new modifications.
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Prosport - results are in....Jury's out!!!!
« Reply #87 on: 26 October 2008, 14:04 »

Another thing is that AFAIK there isn't a Revo car going to Weston or any of the cars from yesterday either  :undecided:. So we are just going to end up with the same sort scenario as JKM's results i'd imagine..

....I'm going with my Revo Stage2 GTI (not Ed30) but as explained why earlier, I won't know until the day before if I'll go on Weston's rollers. I'd be stupid to risk stressing my car's turbo while we don't know the exact problem. I'm currently running around in D-mode all the time and taking it easy on the throttle. I'm still pushing 230 bhp.
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Offline bacillus

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Re: Prosport - results are in....Jury's out!!!!
« Reply #88 on: 26 October 2008, 16:06 »
Well I don't know if this theory holds up as I don't know enough about RRs.
 
Seeing that the first ed30 run figures appeared within expected and the discrepency only occured on Ben's second run, is it not possible that Peter@Prosport didn't switch the dyno back from 4wd to 2wd mode after the S3s did their stint?
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Offline Saint Steve

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Re: Prosport - results are in....Jury's out!!!!
« Reply #89 on: 26 October 2008, 16:10 »
Is Gaz still on the Vino???  :laugh: wheres the List of results!! .

In respoce to Robin at JKM, they cant have problems with a Standard GTi with DSG as theyve had too many DSG cars pullin stock bhp.

« Last Edit: 26 October 2008, 16:26 by Phil Mcavity »