Which brakes?

[Lagerlout]

Well, I've driven quite a few PCCB equipped cars and currently own a 996 C2. Was going to upgrade to a 997 but the Wife went and got herself knocked up somehow. Pork is ok, but I prefer a nice Chianti, so next sporty car for me will have a black bull on it. 

With brakes, theory and reality are two different things. In a 2WD Carrera, in *road* use, you notice a slight improvement in wheel control, mainly on poor roads, there is better initial bite (pads) but the real benefit of PCCB's comes in repetitive stopping from high speed without fade, and that is not ever approached on the road. Well, unless you are some nutter trying to kill someone that is. Accelerative differences are hard to pin down on the road. The theory says the weight reduction should result in an approximate 40 bhp, but I can tell you that the performance kit on a C2 with 40bhp is far more noticeable than the reduction in unsprung mass.

If you're going to track with PCCB, unless you're Walter Rohrl, quite a few of us end up in said gravel traps. Believe me, there are some very upset PCCB owners out there, and nearly all people who track their Carrera's run steel disks. BTDT got burnt big time, barge pole yadda yadda.

The argument is this, PCCB's are better for road use, or for someone with an unlimited budget, but if you have any financial sense then steels are not that far removed from PCCB as you will not stress them enough on the road to make it worthwhile.  I can certainly understand fitting these on a lardy 4WD barge like some of those old man Audi's  , but you're right Pork is comparatively lightweight and doesn't necessarily make full use of the technology. Now as for a big fat RS6 with 600 bhp.. well...

PS are you going to trade up for one of those monsters??

[RedRobin]

You don't need 6-pot on a Mk5 GTI unless you do a lot of track work.

Not necessarily true.  6-pot calipers enable a larger pad to be used, and also help apply a more even pressure over the entire pad.  And don't forget, some mods are done on "looks" alone. 

You don't need aftermarket rear brakes either

But matching front and rears do look better!

- Around 85% of braking is on the front on our cars.

That is not true.  The EBD component of the ABS/ESP electronically varies the front to rear bias, and the rears, even under normal braking, do much more work.  When the ESP activates, then 100% of the braking efficiency is applied to just one rear wheel only.  Indeed, so much force can be applied to the rears, they can overheat and actually temporarilly disable the ESP - and this is clearly highlighted in the owners manual.

My understanding is that AP is an independent part of Brembo.

Again, we have discussed this before.  AP are not, in any way related to or owned by Brembo, and nor have they ever been!  The two are entirely separate companies, and have rival product ranges to boot!

AP make brakes/calipers/clutches for the Bugatti Veyron and the main F1 teams

They certainly do NOT make brakes for the Veyron.  The Veyron, just like all high performance braking applications within the VAG stable (including the Bentley ceramics, Lamborghini, Audi RS cars, and the VW Touareg) all use Brembos.  The more "standard" VAG cars use ATE calipers, and the pads are either Pagid or Ferodo.

As for F1 cars, AP do supply a couple of the "smaller" teams, but the vast majority, including the front running four teams all use Brembo.

....I'm going to have to speak to AP and come back to you on some of these points, T_T. For a start, AP DO make the calipers for the Veyron - I've actually held one in my hand on a visit there! Also AP DO produce clutches for the major F1 teams - Again I've seen the evidence first hand (literally).

Obviously if I'm wrong about any of the info I have posted I will stand up and apologise and correct it.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

the real benefit of PCCB's comes in repetitive stopping from high speed without fade,

Agreed.

and that is not ever approached on the road. Well, unless you are some nutter trying to kill someone that is.

Hmm . . . even on normal UK roads, on a mildly spirited drive, I have experienced brake fade - but that was in a couple of different Vauxhalls!  :embarassed:  However, any large saloon car, when driven in a spirited manner in countries which allow, such as the alps or pyrennese, with a series of hairpins, and brake fade is nigh-on a certanty.  Indeed, one of the main reasons I purchased my RS4 was my previous S4 repeatedly suffered with brake fade, on the road or track!

Accelerative differences are hard to pin down on the road. The theory says the weight reduction should result in an approximate 40 bhp, but I can tell you that the performance kit on a C2 with 40bhp is far more noticeable than the reduction in unsprung mass.

There is considerably more dynamic forces to consider, other than accelerative, when considering the merits of reducing unsprung masses! 

The argument is this, PCCB's are better for road use, or for someone with an unlimited budget,

<cough> I thought all Pork owners had an unlimted budget <cough>   

but if you have any financial sense then steels are not that far removed from PCCB as you will not stress them enough on the road to make it worthwhile.

Fairy-nuff.

  I can certainly understand fitting these on a lardy 4WD barge like some of those old man Audi's  ,

Oi . . . 

but you're right Pork is comparatively lightweight and doesn't necessarily make full use of the technology.

OK.  Do you think the lightweight issue might explain why the original PCCBs were "less durable"? 

Now as for a big fat RS6 with 600 bhp.. well...

Yup, I really think they are a necessity.

PS are you going to trade up for one of those monsters??

No way.  I had a play in the S6 before ordering the RS4, and whilst the Lambo based V10 really was something else, the truely lousy Tiptronic box really is utter shyte, and a real deal breaker.  No, I'm well happy with my RS4 - and it is more economical than my previous S4! 

[Lagerlout]

Yeah RS4 is the perfect compromise I reckon for a four door, anything bigger is a waste. Lovely seats too and proper V8 sound. That RS6 headline BHP tho, ho ho, that would be interstellar, well if we lived in *cough* Germany.

As for my 996, I've never got near fading the brakes on the road, but on my old CSL you could do it no problems. All that needed was a set of Pagids, hoses and some fluid and completely different car. Of course you can go for AP 6 pots but never had problems after I spent £500 ish on that with the above.

But back to the Golf, I like it because it's got a bit of character, and it's practical. Nothing really 5 door floats my boat at this level. The interior of the Ed30 makes me laugh, those seats! I can't wait to see it wearing some largish Brembo's, PS2's and some of these Oettinger mods without changing anything massively on the outside. Should be a hoot for a daily practical car.

What course of action do you reckon TT to enhance the Ed30? ie Real gains, not pretend? I was thinking along the lines of:

PS2's
ARB
PSS9 (prob. not really necessary if I'm honest)
Brembo
Milltek Turbo back
Oettinger Stage 2 (intake (dubious), chip, intercooler)

[Lagerlout]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Audi-S3-8P-Bremsanlage-fuer-Golf-5-V-Bremsen-Bremssaettel_W0QQitemZ160155970099QQihZ006QQcategoryZ61971QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Hmm....!

[Hurdy]

Then of course there is the AUDI RS6 PLUS which has also just been confirmed..................with 640bhp

Also read that the RS6 is having a newly developed gearbox fitted. Still multitronic though.

Imagine if they managed to get a DSG to fit it somehow

[Lagerlout]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Audi-S3-8P-Bremsanlage-fuer-Golf-5-V-Bremsen-Bremssaettel_W0QQitemZ160155970099QQihZ006QQcategoryZ61971QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Hmm....!

Found out that these are single piston calipers. Guy has quoted me 1500 euro for a set of new six piston brembo/Porsche Cayenne calipers, discs, pads etc. Will get some more info..

[Manu_R32]

By any chance would it be possible to fit the Ceramic brakes of the RS4 onto the GTI? Ofcourse with bigger rims etc?