Golf GTD v BMW 120d M-Sport

[ffrank]

Reasonable, but... realistic?

Plenty of other BMW 1 owners had niggles, it's a numbers game at the end of the day. VW and BMW are pretty decent in reliability surveys, but neither are the best. Take 100 owners and 20 of them will have more first year issues than the rest.

I just went to the Babybmw F20 1 forum, the first page showed a splattering of problem posts - just like any other car forum I've ever seen!

Good luck to us all

[monkeyhanger]

Correct, my expectations are that I should have no niggles in 24 months/35000 miles of motoring (the term of my company car lease) - for a modern car I think that's perfectly reasonable, particularly given the amount of R&D and associated testing that takes place. As I say, the 1er did it without breaking a sweat.

For a modern car I do think that's less than reasonable - there are far more things to potentially go wrong in a modern car than say an 80's MK2 Golf where you had to worry about the trim, a much simpler engine (without swirl flaps, egr valves, catalysts/DPFs, massively high injection pressures, dual mass flywheels, ECUs etc), the wheels and the gearbox. The simplest eletronic glitch these days can leave a car on the roadside. The electronic systems in a modern car have to undergo the kind of punishment you would not subject a laptop/ipod/TV to - vibration, extremes of temperature in service, humidity etc.

Your 1er did alright for you - but plenty of others with the same car will not have been so lucky. A half day visit to the dealership to fix a simple warranty issue is no ruination of a 2 year relationship with the car.

I do think that you're leaving yourself open for a huge disappointment on whatever car you get in the future if you consider even one warranty job in your ownership a fail on the manuufacturer's part.

R&D, road testing and other considerations only go so far to provide a good level of confidence of reliability - statistics come into play with 3-sigma standards etc, especially with failure rates of components that VW/BMW manufacture, and that third party manufacturers are contracted to supply.

If you want rock solid reliability, neither VW nor BMW fit the bill, they are both decidedly mid-table, with VW (20th/20th) beating BMW (25th/26th) in 2012/2013's what car reliability survey http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/introduction/1206676. http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/honda-tops-reliability-survey/1202107

You'll be buying a Honda Civic or Toyota Auris after one "bad" example of either a 1er or a Golf, and even they're not infallible.

[CR4ZYHOR5E]

MH,

Everything you have said is reasonable and I accept the merits of your argument; most of what I have said is based on personal experience. Nonetheless, relationships with cars/brands are built on personal experiences. All the statistics and league tables in the world are of small comfort to the individual sitting at the roadside with the bonnet up.

I apply the same prejudice to other products; have had Samsung TVs for the last 10 years or so and would not really consider anything else on account of my experience with them. That said, if it were to inexplicably die when I'm watching the Monaco GP in a couple of weeks time then I'll go elsewhere (or at least I will be motivated to consider other options). For most products, I have the luxury of being so flippant on account of choice/alternatives that exist in any given market. I would also maintain that such attitudes help drive standards (why would a brand improve if a loyal customer base stuck with them no matter what?).

As you say, the danger is that I miss out on opportunities/experiences or reject a good brand too easily. I really do hope that this is not the case with VW as I am thoroughly enjoying the car. Now, about that rear suspension noise...

[corgi]

So... prejudiced and fickle...

Do you read the Daily Mail and vote UKIP? 

I try to have an open mind and select products (in general) based on the requirements I have at the time and the budget.

The Golf fitted these (for my company car) and has run faultlessly so far ~8K miles. Mind you, so did the g/f's BMW before she handed it back when she left the company. Would she have another 1er? It would be on the list but so would others...

[monkeyhanger]

I could never adopt a zero tolerance policy like that when it comes to running a car, I’d be extremely lucky to be with the same car marque for more than 2 cars in a row, they almost always have one thing that needs a fix, no matter how minor. On a mass produced item like a car that has over 10,000 components and relies on the human element for a decent proportion of the build, you can’t reasonably expect every single one to be without fault, you just need to consider yourself lucky if you have no warranty issues. I consider myself to be lucky enough to have had 7 VWs from new over 17 years and to not have had a single incapacitating fault on either of them. Funnily enough, my 2  Portuguese built Sciroccos have proven to be the best screwed together VWs I have owned in relation to warranty issues (or lack of). I could go for a Japanese car to pursue greater reliability but I generally don’t like them inside or out, parts and servicing are prohibitively expensive and residuals aren’t as good as you’d expect.

[CR4ZYHOR5E]

So... prejudiced and fickle...

Do you read the Daily Mail and vote UKIP? 

I try to have an open mind and select products (in general) based on the requirements I have at the time and the budget.

The Golf fitted these (for my company car) and has run faultlessly so far ~8K miles. Mind you, so did the g/f's BMW before she handed it back when she left the company. Would she have another 1er? It would be on the list but so would others...

I'm glad to hear yours has run faultlessly for 8K miles. Mine makes a noise from the rear suspension and does 20mpg under the book figure after 1K miles. Clearly I have unrealistic expectations, I'll try to remind myself to simply be grateful it gets me to work every day.

As I say, I am still enjoying the car, simply questioning the quality based on previous cars I've had (hence inclusion of my post within this thread). At the moment I'm sceptical, I do hope I'm wrong.

[monkeyhanger]

You can disregard mpg expectations, the inclusion of stop-start bumps up official figures considerably as 24% of the test cycle has the car at a standstill, but does little for the real-life situation. In my 13 mile/ 20 minute commute my car is static at roundabouts and traffic lights etc for around a minute. Euro 6 emissions controls make the car run a little cooler (to cut down NOx emissions) which allows the DPF filling to be an issue for shorter commutes, which hits the mpg hard. If you have a commute in excess of 15 miles each way then it’s unlikely to be an issue.

In real life situations, the mpg is around the same or barely better than that of the previous generation Golf, but the official mpg results put unrealistic expectations on the car and all the car manufacturers are now quoting “for comparison only, quoted figures may not be achieved in real life driving situations” when they talk about them.

[mcmaddy]

It's now common practice to have to take 20% off the claimed manufacturer mpg figures for any brand. You only use them as a comparison to other brands and shouldn't be taken as that's what you'll get.

[corgi]

I'm glad to hear yours has run faultlessly for 8K miles. Mine makes a noise from the rear suspension and does 20mpg under the book figure after 1K miles. Clearly I have unrealistic expectations, I'll try to remind myself to simply be grateful it gets me to work every day.

As I say, I am still enjoying the car, simply questioning the quality based on previous cars I've had (hence inclusion of my post within this thread). At the moment I'm sceptical, I do hope I'm wrong.

It is widely known that the officially quoted mpg figures based on the current official tests over state real world consumption by in excess of 20% - mcmaddy's statement is really the starting point. Volkswagen is no worse than any other mainstream manufacturer in this regard. It is the test that is rubbish... and it is due for change.

So, it is a little noisier than it should be and thirstier than you thought... You're lucky you weren't buying cars 25 years ago. Quality was shocking by comparison. Go and look up Lancia Beta, their owners really suffered... that is why we haven't had Lancia the UK market for 20 years...

What car have you come from to justify such high expectations?

[CR4ZYHOR5E]

Am aware of the official figures versus real world (have just posted in the other thread), point is you guys are saying 20% difference; I'm saying 20mpg difference is typical of what I'm seeing. My last car was closer to 8-10mpg difference from the book figure.

Of course I can make the computer show a higher number but not driving in a realistic manner. Bottom line, the GTD is more thirsty than expected, even when taking into account the bloated book figure.