Winter Tyres

[am1w]

GolfTi has the power.
It's the longest thread ever.
Let's see how many posts it will reach.

[Ben Lessani]

Question to Ben:
If only two winter tyres were available, (let's not go into the two versus four argument as we know the answer to that one), to be fitted to Rolfe's FWD car as she needed TRACTION to get out of her drive, which axle would you fit them on?

Purely for TRACTION getting out of her drive, obviously the front.
For SAFETY and driving around in general, the rear.

With the winters on the rear only, Rolfe won't be 'driving around in general' as she won't be able to get out of her driveway!

With the winters on the front only, Rolfe will have traction and at least will be able to drive her car.

So be it, but that loss of traction they once had on the front, will now be on the rear.

I just can't advise deliberately unbalancing the car, its well known that better tyres (better grip) should be on the rear. Emergency situations being the exception (snow socks/chains) where you'll be crawling around under 10mph anyway.

BUT, we're in the situation, where someone who hasn't used winter tyres before - who, we could safely say, perhaps isn't the most experienced winter driver, is asking the question.

Accidents tend to happen because people exceed the limits of their skill or grip. By having winters up front only, it can give you a massive sense of false confidence, yes, it will brake better, yes, it will accelerate better and yes, it will reduce understeer. So after a few days of having exceptional grip by comparison to all seasons, the driver finds the car handles not too dis-similarly. But its that **one** time, when the rear end breaks loose when accidents happen.

Even worse still is the likelihood of being at high speed on what appear to be normal gritted roads, when the imbalance in grip will causes an ever-increasing chance of oversteer.

I've been in the situation with good tyres up front (wets), and poor tyres at the rear (summers). Both had equal tread levels, and to any observer, looks perfectly safe. But on two occasions, the car snapped, and spun out, once at around 25 mph on a big roundabout, and another at around 35 mph on a country road.

It can happen so easily in summer, combine that with sub 10 deg, poor visibility, darker evenings, slow/slush/ice/rain, unpredictable other road users; why take the added risk of deliberately unbalancing the car?

4 all season tyres - balanced and even - poor grip all round
2 rear winters - balanced and even - poor grip all round - same handling characteristics as a normal car.
2 front winters - unbalanced, risk of oversteer, good grip up front, poor grip at rear
4 winters - balanced and even - good grip all round

Stop confusing opinion with fact.

[am1w]

Ben, we will agree to disagree with you.

It is stalemate.

Rolfe just wishes to drive her car by at least leaving her driveway and making some short journeys. She won't be tearing around in the snow/ice. She is probably a better driver than you or I.

With winters on the rear only, her car will be stuck in the garage.

Is it so difficult for you to understand this simple fact?

[Irish Love Toy]

And for those undecided on the matter:
Winter tyres still work when warm. Summer tyres stop working when cold.

That's why I had considered something like a Nokian WR G2 which is apparently considered an all weather tyre. But it is a compromise and will not be as good as a true winter tyre or a true summer tyre.

An all weather trye will work in warm and cold weather.

This would also mean no need to swap tyres or buy new rims.

... just considering my options, before my car arrives.

[Ben Lessani]

Is it so difficult for you to understand this simple fact?

No its not, which is why I keep agreeing with you on this ...

... yes, it will brake better, yes, it will accelerate better and yes, it will reduce understeer.

BUT it is a dangerous practice. As I keep saying, over and over again, you don't have to be tearing around on snow, or ice to get caught out with a car with balanced grip - f**k up the front/rear grip balance and you are asking for trouble.

The better tyres always go on the rear first, then follow it up with the fronts.

Stop telling people that fitting 2 front winter tyres is viable, its dumb, dangerous, selfish and ignorant.

You can't agree to disagree with a fact, its not optional, rain remains wet

[am1w]

Here you go Irish LT:

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Summer-VS-Winter-tyres-Warm-weather-performance.htm

[am1w]

Ben,

FACT - I have never advocated the fitting of just two winter tyres over four.

You are the perfect mule IMO.

[Ben Lessani]

I have never advocated the fitting of just two winter tyres over four.

I didn't say you did. But you did say it was a viable alternative to run only 2 fronts (budget/availability of 4 tyres).

This was the exact point I have been contesting from the very beginning ..

No, you have to change the rears first, then the fronts.

The better tyres always go on the rear first, then follow it up with the fronts.

[am1w]

I did for TRACTION and so did you.

[Ben Lessani]

I did for TRACTION and so did you.

For front-end traction, yes, I didn't contest, I agree!

I'm saying that deliberately unbalancing the grip of the car is not safe, the way to avoid it, is to put the better tyres at the rear.