Winter Tyres

[Ess_Three]

EVERY FWD is set up to understeer - BECAUSE IT IS CONTROLLABLE.

Not every FWD car is set to understeer at all.
How many have you driven?
Do you actually drive? Or just read things on the internet and sprout them as fact.
Ever driven a Clio Cup / Integra Type R/ 205 GTI?
They don’t understeer. Understeer is dialled in by VAG

OMFG - are you insane? You asked me why I chose to ignore your statement about ESP - when you HADN'T mentioned ESP? How am I supposed to comment on something that you haven't even said?!?!

Because it’s standard on the cars. A bit like having 4 wheels…and I don’t need to tell you that.
ESP changes things…a fact you conveniently choose to ignore…and this is the Mk6 GTI forum, is it not?
So all cars have it fitted…a bit like seats, an engine and 4 wheels. We don’t need to mention it because we are all clever enough to realise the GTI comes with them.

I REALLY don't understand your problem. You claim to have "years of experience" and are preaching on and on, but can't understand, how, in wet/slushy/snowy/icy conditions that a car could loose grip - EVEN with ALL of your years of experience and electrical aids.

You don’t read so well do you?
Any car can lose control, if driven by a bellend in a manner totally unsuitable for the consitions.
You drive a Mk6 GTI with winter tyres on the front (a car you evidently have Sooooo much experience of) in a suitable manner, and you will be no more likely to have an accident than a car with no winter tyres on…and you will still have the ability to pull away and brake.
That’s from experience. Not the internet.

You honestly baffle me. You make it sound like its not possible to have an accident in GOOD conditions with tyres that are actually balanced front/rear at 30 MPH, let alone in winter conditions.

There is no reason ANY accident should occur at 30 MPH in good conditions if the driver has a decent sense of awareness and a reasonable level of driving skill.
Actually, in winter, cars don’t just have accidents…accidents happen due to exterior inputs…make sure those inputs are measured, drive accordingly, and there is no reason ANY accident should occur at 30 MPH in winter conditions if the driver has a decent sense of awareness and a reasonable level of driving skill.

You know for a fact that what I am saying is correct - but I don't know why you can't actually agree?

I’ll not agree with anyone so unbelievably stupid as to suggest you are better off with winter tyres on the rear, and chooses to ignore the fact that you’ll not actually get the car moving, with them on the rear.
I hear all the stuff about balance…but you claim to have tried winter tyres…you try telling me that the difference in grip is so huge that the car will snap oversteer in normal driving? It’s utter crap. Winter tyres are an advantage...not a miracle cure for no grip.

I don't know whether you are choosing to ignore this or not, but I keep saying, fitting winter tyres on the rear - will not in any way enhance the overall grip in snow. No, you won't be able to put "pull out the drive", no, you won't be able to climb hills, and yes, you will get overtaken by other drivers with winter tyres on the front. They won't enhance your winter driving experience one bit, BUT the key difference is that you haven't altered the way the car was designed to drive.

Ahh…so your advice is to fit them on the rear, and stay stuck in the driveway.
We’ve gone full circle.
Utter genius.

[Ben Lessani]

There is no reason ANY accident should occur at 30 MPH in good conditions if the driver has a decent sense of awareness and a reasonable level of driving skill.

No, there isn't, but it happens - why encourage it.

to suggest you are better off with winter tyres on the rear, and chooses to ignore the fact that you’ll not actually get the car moving, with them on the rear.

For THAT VERY reason, the lack of traction the non-winters have on the front ... would all of a sudden be at the rear (once the winters are on the front).

Ahh…so your advice is to fit them on the rear, and stay stuck in the driveway.

No. Its not. My advice is that fitting winter tyres on the rear WILL NOT change the way the car handles negatively. It would have no discernable effect on the car.

BUT by fitting winter tyres only to the front, you are provoking a dangerous situation by unbalancing the grip on the car.

Just a quick recap, (again)

4 all season tyres - balanced and even - poor grip all round
2 rear winters - balanced and even - poor grip all round - same handling characteristics as a normal car.
2 front winters - unbalanced, risk of oversteer, good grip up front, poor grip at rear
4 winters - balanced and even - good grip all round

I don't know whether you are choosing to ignore this or not, but I keep saying, fitting winter tyres on the rear - will not in any way enhance the overall grip in snow. No, you won't be able to put "pull out the drive", no, you won't be able to climb hills, and yes, you will get overtaken by other drivers with winter tyres on the front. They won't enhance your winter driving experience one bit, BUT the key difference is that you haven't altered the way the car was designed to drive.

Having a drastic difference in grip between the front and rear axle is highly unadvisable. Avoid this situation if you can at all help it.

When it comes to fitting two new tyres (whether it be summer, all-season, winter or snow tyres) to whichever axle, let it be clear there is no such thing as "the better" option, it is more about the "least worst" option.


The German Automobile Club (ADAC) conducted a test, by fitting gripper tyres on the FRONT axle, and ended up with the following results:

Pros
- Reduced aquaplaning when cornering.
- Significant reduction in braking distances when slippery.
- Slight reduction in braking distances when dry.

Cons
- Significant likelihood of snap oversteer (on cars without ESP).
- Likelihood of snap oversteer on cars with ESP is reduced, but if the limits of the ESP are breached (they cannot bend the laws of physics) then the ensuing break in traction tends to be more violent and uncontrollable.

The conclusion reached by ADAC is to fit gripper tyres on the rear axle. Hence, the recommendation of tyre manufacturers and motoring organisations stems from their goal to prevent any situation which could lead to snap oversteer in slippery conditions, which in their opinion overrides the benefits from fitting gripper tyres on the front axle. Essentially, their priority is ensuring and maintaining stability on the road.

My opinion - you're pretty much f***ed either way.


However, different drivers have different priorities, and if you're intelligent and mature enough to look all the facts, and take into account local conditions, then you can probably make your own decision accordingly.

Spot on

[am1w]

Question to Ben:

If only two winter tyres were available, (let's not go into the two versus four argument as we know the answer to that one), to be fitted to Rolfe's FWD car as she needed TRACTION to get out of her drive, which axle would you fit them on?

[Irish Love Toy]

I've got 17" Monza's for my Summer tyres (much to the disdain of some  ) and  17" VW Exis STP for my winters. I don't like the idea of taking a tyre on and off a rim. Also leaves it in my hands to change the wheels back and forward when I want to

Has anyone any experience of swapping tyres on and off the same rims say 5/6 times?

I looked at buying another set of rims. Was going to be over £800 pounds for a set of VW 205/55/R16 (which someone here said was the VW recommended size for winter tyres for a GTI).

Local tyre place said they would swap the tyres on the rims for £20. Works out a lot cheaper. Ok a set of 16" tyres will be slightly cheaper. Then there is the issue that the insurance company may not be happy with different alloys fitted.

[p3asa]

Just remember you risk the chance of your wheels being marked every time the mechanic levers away at the tyre. To some that might not matter though.

[Ben Lessani]

Question to Ben:

If only two winter tyres were available, (let's not go into the two versus four argument as we know the answer to that one), to be fitted to Rolfe's FWD car as she needed TRACTION to get out of her drive, which axle would you fit them on?

Purely for TRACTION getting out of her drive, obviously the front.
For SAFETY and driving around in general, the rear.

I just can't advise deliberately unbalancing the car, its well known that better tyres (better grip) should be on the rear. Emergency situations being the exception (snow socks/chains) where you'll be crawling around under 10mph anyway.

BUT, we're in the situation, where someone who hasn't used winter tyres before - who, we could safely say, perhaps isn't the most experienced winter driver, is asking the question.

Accidents tend to happen because people exceed the limits of their skill or grip. By having winters up front only, it can give you a massive sense of false confidence, yes, it will brake better, yes, it will accelerate better and yes, it will reduce understeer. So after a few days of having exceptional grip by comparison to all seasons, the driver finds the car handles not too dis-similarly. But its that **one** time, when the rear end breaks loose when accidents happen.

Even worse still is the likelihood of being at high speed on what appear to be normal gritted roads, when the imbalance in grip will causes an ever-increasing chance of oversteer.

I've been in the situation with good tyres up front (wets), and poor tyres at the rear (summers). Both had equal tread levels, and to any observer, looks perfectly safe. But on two occasions, the car snapped, and spun out, once at around 25 mph on a big roundabout, and another at around 35 mph on a country road.

It can happen so easily in summer, combine that with sub 10 deg, poor visibility, darker evenings, slow/slush/ice/rain, unpredictable other road users; why take the added risk of deliberately unbalancing the car?

I've got 17" Monza's for my Summer tyres (much to the disdain of some  ) and  17" VW Exis STP for my winters. I don't like the idea of taking a tyre on and off a rim. Also leaves it in my hands to change the wheels back and forward when I want to

Has anyone any experience of swapping tyres on and off the same rims say 5/6 times?

I looked at buying another set of rims. Was going to be over £800 pounds for a set of VW 205/55/R16 (which someone here said was the VW recommended size for winter tyres for a GTI).

Local tyre place said they would swap the tyres on the rims for £20. Works out a lot cheaper. Ok a set of 16" tyres will be slightly cheaper. Then there is the issue that the insurance company may not be happy with different alloys fitted.

There shouldn't really be an issue (those on track days would probably be able to confirm), worse case, the alloy would need re-beading (~£15 p/w).

[Hyperspace]

... why take the added risk of deliberately unbalancing the car?

To have fun on roundabouts!

[Hyperspace]

Has anyone any experience of swapping tyres on and off the same rims say 5/6 times?

I'd only go down this route if you can find someone trustworthy not to damage your alloys.

I looked at buying another set of rims. Was going to be over £800 pounds for a set of VW 205/55/R16 (which someone here said was the VW recommended size for winter tyres for a GTI).

Local tyre place said they would swap the tyres on the rims for £20. Works out a lot cheaper. Ok a set of 16" tyres will be slightly cheaper. Then there is the issue that the insurance company may not be happy with different alloys fitted.

As if you would shell out £xxx for another set of alloys just for winter... do what the Continentals do and get some steel wheels - save your nice alloys for the rest of the year when the roads aren't gritted. Preferably 16-inch (as you mention) as I'm led to believe narrower tyres work better in slippery conditions, not to mention it keeps the cost of winter motoring down.

You also get peace of mind since you won't be endlessly worried about kerbing or damaging your brand new alloys (you're driving on slippery roads, so it can happen!) and another bonus is you won't have to clean them all the time (a godsend in winter!).

And if the insurance company doesn't like the idea of changing wheels & tyres for reasons of enhanced safety, clearly you need to send your business elsewhere!



And for those undecided on the matter:
Winter tyres still work when warm. Summer tyres stop working when cold.

[am1w]

Question to Ben:
If only two winter tyres were available, (let's not go into the two versus four argument as we know the answer to that one), to be fitted to Rolfe's FWD car as she needed TRACTION to get out of her drive, which axle would you fit them on?

Purely for TRACTION getting out of her drive, obviously the front.
For SAFETY and driving around in general, the rear.

With the winters on the rear only, Rolfe won't be 'driving around in general' as she won't be able to get out of her driveway!

With the winters on the front only, Rolfe will have traction and at least will be able to drive her car.

But best to fit all four wheels with winter tyres. We know this.

End of story.

[Jimble]

Can someone please lock this thread?? If for no other reason than the sake of Ess-Three and Rolfe's Sanity!!!