Winter Tyres

[DDRFan]

FFS, stop being cheapskates. If you can't afford four winter tyres vs two, buy a cheaper GTI and properly maintain it, or don't drive if conditions don't allow. Spouting advice on public forums that puts other peoples lives at risk to save a few pounds is retarded and irresponsible.

aww dude it's not just about being a cheap skate. i was considering getting all 4 tyres swapped for winters, but when it warms up again and i have to swap them back, what do i do with the winter tyres? 4 tyres takes up a hefty amount of space. it wouldn't make sense for me to just throw them away would it?

all i was originally asking was whether just having winters on the fronts is enough, mainly just to get me where i need to go. none of us here are in the business of having an accident. i'm not exactly going to be bombing it down country lanes like Tommi Makinen - i think most of us are sensible enough to know better.
neither will having all 4 tyres swapped to winter rubber make you completely immune to accidents.

to be honest i don't think i'm ever going to bother with winter tyres, until such a time they may be a legal requirement in the UK. i don't really feel i travel the distances to justify spending hundreds and then taking the off only to store them somewhere where i have no space until the next winter.

today i did have problems getting up a hill. front drive wheels spinning like crazy, and lots of yellow light flashing on the dash. luckily some guys walking by (or waiting for stranded motorists...) gave me a push. thanks fellas! i was well in trouble without them

i might give the Autosocks/snowsocks or a chain a go though, that's a more sensible proposition in my circumstances. when i'm not using them i could just easily fold it away and not need lots of room to store 4 whole tyres. i promise to drive slowly in the snow mummy.
apparently you can get a pair for £50 from any Vauxhall dealer
http://www.news-insurances.com/car-insurance-snow-socks-for-your-car/0167471080

[DDRFan]

oh also this goes off in a bit of a tangent but still on the topic of winter tyres, here's what our Secretary of State for Transport the right honourable Philip Hammond apparently said recently:

"Winter tyres wear out very quickly on normal road surfaces and cause significant damage to those surfaces, so they would not be appropriate in the UK situation"
http://uk.autoblog.com/2010/12/03/transport-minister-slammed-over-confused-winter-tyre-message/

Yep this is the TRANSPORT SECRETARY.

[Rolfe]

Just to add fuel to the fire, read this thread.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=933323&i=20&mid=0&nmt=Just%20fit%20winter%20tyres%20to%20the%20drive%20wheels?

That's actually a very good thread, and what this one might have been without Ben making ridiculous statements he feels he has to either defend or pretend he didn't make in the first place.

People declaring that theoretically front-only winters would be dangerous because this or that could happen, against people who've done it for years and had no trouble, because they drive within the limits of their set-up.

Several particularly interesting points.  First, that those YouTube clips Ben linked to are tyre manufacturers trying to persuade people to buy twice as much of their product.  The cars are being driven far too fast on packed snow and being braked and cornered sharply, specifically to force the rear tyres to lose grip.  The driver may well be encouraging the oversteer or understeer or whatever the hell it was happened.

Second, that Americans drive around on front-only winter tyres all the time, and given what a litigious bunch they are, if it was as dangerous as some people are making out, this would not be happening.

And then this one.

I said with ABS (as found on the majority of cars on our roads and every new production car, so don't say it's not a fair argument!), which nullifies any arguments relating to brake bias. ABS is designed to allow you to stop in a controlled manner even when there are different grip levels at each of the 4 wheels. In fact, ABS would be able to make best use of the extra grip afforded by the winter tyres and you would stop significantly quicker and in full control.

I hadn't thought of that part.  The video clip where the rear of the car with the front-only winters tries to overtake the front, had the ABS switched off.  It said so.  Hey, only one of these cars has ABS, so to be fair we switched off the ABS on the other car as well.

Yeah, guys, like you're going to switch off your ABS before you set off in the snow.

Would the ABS keep the car straight anyway, in the hard braking situation?

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

oh also this goes off in a bit of a tangent but still on the topic of winter tyres, here's what our Secretary of State for Transport the right honourable Philip Hammond apparently said recently:

"Winter tyres wear out very quickly on normal road surfaces and cause significant damage to those surfaces, so they would not be appropriate in the UK situation"
http://uk.autoblog.com/2010/12/03/transport-minister-slammed-over-confused-winter-tyre-message/

Yep this is the TRANSPORT SECRETARY.

What an unmitigated prat.  Who elects these morons?

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

i might give the Autosocks/snowsocks or a chain a go though, that's a more sensible proposition in my circumstances. when i'm not using them i could just easily fold it away and not need lots of room to store 4 whole tyres. i promise to drive slowly in the snow mummy.
apparently you can get a pair for £50 from any Vauxhall dealer
http://www.news-insurances.com/car-insurance-snow-socks-for-your-car/0167471080

Before you go for these (cheapskate!), read the AutoSocks page.

These cheap knock-offs are infringing the Autosocks patent (they claim), and are also vastly inferior.  This could be department of "they would say that wouldn't they", but it could in fact be honest truth.

http://www.roofbox.co.uk/car-snow-socks/copiers.php

Rolfe.

[DDRFan]

What an unmitigated prat.  Who elects these morons?

Erm.... I did.  
Actually I'm not ashamed to admit I actually voted Lib Dem. But sort of regretting it a bit with all the student tuition fee thing.... but that's another topic altogether!

[Irish Love Toy]

What are peoples' opinions on just having the original alloys and changing summer and winter tyres onto them as necessary.

Is this too sore on a single set of alloys having to change tyres twice a year?

Is it ok to fit, remove then re-fit tyres several times times until they are worn out?

Is anyone doing this?

Thanks,

ILT

[Rolfe]

What are peoples' opinions on just having the original alloys and changing summer and winter tyres onto them as necessary.

Is this too sore on a single set of alloys having to change tyres twice a year?

Is it ok to fit, remove then re-fit tyres several times times until they are worn out?

Is anyone doing this?

Thanks,

ILT

I have the ordinary 17" alloys, much to the disdain of a lot of posters here.  I just don't get off on looking at the wheels of my car when it's parked.  I'm also not paranoid about kerbing the damn things, life's too short.

I just had the winter tyres fitted on the existing alloys.  I don't see the problem in changing them backwards and forwards.

People who have the 18" Monza Shadows may be of a different opinion, for several reasons.

Rolfe.

[Hartside]

I've got 17" Monza's for my Summer tyres (much to the disdain of some  ) and  17" VW Exis STP for my winters. I don't like the idea of taking a tyre on and off a rim. Also leaves it in my hands to change the wheels back and forward when I want to

[Ben Lessani]

Unless you've had your head up your own arse over the last 20 years, you'll know VWs understeer...they are set up to do so

EVERY FWD is set up to understeer - BECAUSE IT IS CONTROLLABLE.

Understeer - controllable
Oversteer - uncontrollable

What causes oversteer ... less grip on the back wheels ... what would cause that, having BETTER grip on the front wheels.

So, lets re-iterate.

Understeer - controllable
Oversteer - uncontrollable

Because you never mentioned it?

So you choose to ignore ESP because I never mentioned it.

OMFG - are you insane? You asked me why I chose to ignore your statement about ESP - when you HADN'T mentioned ESP? How am I supposed to comment on something that you haven't even said?!?!

When a tyre breaks traction, you have a progressive loss of traction.

No, you really don't - not when you have different front/rear tyres and are driving on unpredictable road surfaces.

So, explain again, how at say 30-40 MPH, my Mk6 GTI with it's ESP, is going to swap ends on a sixpence with me having no say in the matter...I am after all still in charge of the steering wheel. I haven't specifically mentioned it previously, but I thought it safe to assume you'd know that.

I REALLY don't understand your problem. You claim to have "years of experience" and are preaching on and on, but can't understand, how, in wet/slushy/snowy/icy conditions that a car could loose grip - EVEN with ALL of your years of experience and electrical aids.

You honestly baffle me. You make it sound like its not possible to have an accident in GOOD conditions with tyres that are actually balanced front/rear at 30 MPH, let alone in winter conditions.

I don't normally argue to this extent, but you are giving out STUPID and frankly DANGEROUS advice. If you choose to run a car with winters on the front - so be it, its your choice. BUT don't recommend it to other people as a viable alternative.

You know for a fact that what I am saying is correct - but I don't know why you can't actually agree?

4 all season tyres - balanced and even - poor grip all round
2 rear winters - balanced and even - poor grip all round - same handling characteristics as a normal car.
2 front winters - unbalanced, risk of oversteer, good grip up front, poor grip at rear
4 winters - balanced and even - good grip all round

I don't know whether you are choosing to ignore this or not, but I keep saying, fitting winter tyres on the rear - will not in any way enhance the overall grip in snow. No, you won't be able to put "pull out the drive", no, you won't be able to climb hills, and yes, you will get overtaken by other drivers with winter tyres on the front. They won't enhance your winter driving experience one bit, BUT the key difference is that you haven't altered the way the car was designed to drive.

As you said, FWD cars are intentionally built to encourage understeer, because its safer, and more controllable than oversteer. Yet, by fitting front winter tyres and std rear tyres - you are creating the opportunity for the car to oversteer. Don't you get it?!

I really, really, really don't know how you can argue with me - I'm just stating fact. The only thing you are providing is opinion.

For those wanting to know where to store their summer wheels, some dealerships offer to store them on your behalf.