Author Topic: MK5 GTI - Cambelt  (Read 54323 times)

Offline neg

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Re: MK5 GTI - Cambelt
« Reply #50 on: 07 April 2009, 23:25 »
They do , thats why the new TSI is a chain driven unit now.

Offline smartypants

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Re: MK5 GTI - Cambelt
« Reply #51 on: 07 April 2009, 23:51 »
They do , thats why the new TSI is a chain driven unit now.

Only 15 years behind the times :D

I suppose there must be some design reason to use a belt rather than a chain though

Offline gstar-dubworld

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Re: MK5 GTI - Cambelt
« Reply #52 on: 08 April 2009, 01:11 »
They do , thats why the new TSI is a chain driven unit now.

Only 15 years behind the times :D

I suppose there must be some design reason to use a belt rather than a chain though

Engineering cost being one, modern day 6 pots tend to be chain driven, BMW & VW engineering the only thing they share is the 'W', chains also stretch over a period of time and need replacement, 2 thing's people should never skimp on or overlook - cambelts & tyres, both have one thing in common rubber with a shelf/use life.

Offline Caz

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Re: MK5 GTI - Cambelt
« Reply #53 on: 08 April 2009, 06:54 »
At the end of the day, its down to you as the driver and owner to maintain you vehicle and make decisions. All we, as deales can do is ADVISE you on matters. Thats what VW ask us to do.

The after 4 years condition has only just been brough in, cant remember how many years now, but in a way im sure theyre just tying to cover their backs. Everyone knows what the outcome can be if it isnt changed, and with the material used for the belt, like anything, you just dont know when it could snap.. so why wait?



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Offline RedRobin

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Re: MK5 GTI - Cambelt
« Reply #54 on: 08 April 2009, 07:18 »
At the end of the day, its down to you as the driver and owner to maintain you vehicle and make decisions. All we, as deales can do is ADVISE you on matters. Thats what VW ask us to do.

The after 4 years condition has only just been brough in, cant remember how many years now, but in a way im sure theyre just tying to cover their backs. Everyone knows what the outcome can be if it isnt changed, and with the material used for the belt, like anything, you just dont know when it could snap.. so why wait?


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Offline smartypants

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Re: MK5 GTI - Cambelt
« Reply #55 on: 08 April 2009, 08:36 »
At the end of the day, its down to you as the driver and owner to maintain you vehicle and make decisions. All we, as deales can do is ADVISE you on matters. Thats what VW ask us to do.

The after 4 years condition has only just been brough in, cant remember how many years now, but in a way im sure theyre just tying to cover their backs. Everyone knows what the outcome can be if it isnt changed, and with the material used for the belt, like anything, you just dont know when it could snap.. so why wait?

Agreed! Its just because the cambelt is a notoriously expensive item to change that we all kick up a fuss about it. Its still a moving part that is crucial to the longevity of your machine. Its just not worth even thinking about neglecting it

Offline ub7rm

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Re: MK5 GTI - Cambelt
« Reply #56 on: 08 April 2009, 10:06 »
I agree with that.  But what is suspicious is why VW have suddenly changed it to 4 years in the UK but not worldwide?  Yes its part rubber, not strawberry lace!  Unless its been contaminated by oil the belts will last much longer than 4 years.  That said I guess there is an argument that frequent starts more typical of low mileage are harder on the belt than constant driving high mileage.

5-6 years, 60k is a sensible time to change.  If they were nylon belts I could see the sense but ASFAIK they are not (on the 2.0T FSI anyway).  Thanks to long life servicing VW are not seeing as much service related monies coming through the door and have changed the belt schedule to generate a bit more cashflow.

I appreciate some of you are taking the safe road without question, and in the words of our resident philosopher, ETTO, hail mary etc.  But if VW changed it to 3 years?  2 years?  would you still blindly follow this advice without question?  Maybe wonder why this change in schedule has not been implemented world wide?

If it is the case that belts are now failing earlier than expected and there is a sound technical reason why VW have implemented this change then you still have to ask the question why are VW now churning out shyte belts?  Why are we taking a step backwards here?
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: MK5 GTI - Cambelt
« Reply #57 on: 08 April 2009, 10:42 »
I understand what your saying, and it will get done as soon as it can be afforded.

OK, cool. :afro:

The point I am trying to make is, how is it that over the years these things have suddenly slipped forward several years and many thousand of miles.  10 years ago cars were going on to 60k and over 5 years before they changed them.  And here we are surely with new and better ways to actually produce the same item with modem technologies and methods?  It just feels like car dealers are making new ways to extract money from you time and time again.

Hmmmm . . . I do sort of agree with your point of view.  However, what your really need to be aware of - is sort of down to the actual car manufacturers.  When they bring out a new car, one of the (many) key issues is maintenance costs (which is why they invented LongLife servicing).  So when the 2.0 TFSI engine was first introduced, VW 'claimed' that the timing belt could last a stupid amount - 120,000 miles - which really is suicidal - because for the 'average' driver, that could mean 10 to 12 years for the timing belt!  :shocked:  :shocked:  :shocked:  :shocked:  But by VW stating this stratmospheric interval, they could then claim their cars cost less to maintain than say a Ford or Vauxhall (who might be claiming a more reasonable 60k miles).  But once the 'honeymoon period' is over for sales of cars with the 2.0 TFSI engines, VW then sneakly, but correctly revise the timing belt interval to a more reasonable and realistic period.

So that said - even with the GTI - then yes, 5 years or 60k miles may be perfectly acceptable for the timing belt - and I have absolutley no doubt that there are hundreds, maybe thousands of 2.0 TFSI engines running at 60k miles or five years old on the original timing belt.  A few may even last 6 years, but at six years, you really are dicing with an extremely high probablility that the belt will fail - and if it does, the relatively 'cheap' £250-£350 for the routine timing belt replacement will very quickly be forgotten when you get a bill for maybe £1500 to £2000 for a new cylinder head, valves, pistons (basically upto a full engine rebuild).  :smug:

So, the reason why 4 years or 40k miles is recommended is simply because the 4year/40k mile service is traditionally seen as the "big one" - where most of the more expensive maintenance items may need changing.  So peeps can budget accordingly (or use it as a haggling point when purchasing a 2nd hand car which is near that mileage/age).  I would personally not have any problem with recommending leaving the cam belt change until a max of 5 years or a max of 60k miles - but (a) you would need to ensure that the owner/driver is disciplined and organised enough to remember to actually get the job done, and (b) a '5year service' is traditionally seen as a 'cheaper' service - so by defferring it, not only have you stung them for an expensive 4year/40k mile service, but you will now be stinging them a year/10k later!


Finally, your comment about 'newer technologies'.  Rubber/kevlar cam belts do have many advantages, which is why they were used.  The alternative (for overhead cam engines) is to use chain driven cams.  Chain cams may be fine on 'short-stroke' Japanese motorbikes, but on 'long-stroke' conventional car engines, particularly on larger(ish) displacement engines like a 2 litre (4 cylinder) - then a single chain would need to be long - verrrryyyyy long.  And long timing chains make lots of 'engineering problems'.  So a better way of using chain driven cams is to use two or more chains (the Audi modern V8s, like in the S4 and RS4, and the V10s - actually have four timing chains) - but this then adds cost.  And then you need to ensure that the chain is adequately lubricated - and chains do need a copious quantity CLEAN oil.

So, if you really have a problem with changing timing belts, buy the new Mk6 GTI, because the new TSI engine in that now uses chain driven cams!  :tongue:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: MK5 GTI - Cambelt
« Reply #58 on: 08 April 2009, 10:47 »

I understand what your saying, and it will get done as soon as it can be afforded.  The point I am trying to make is, how is it that over the years these things have suddenly slipped forward several years and many thousand of miles.  10 years ago cars were going on to 60k and over 5 years before they changed them.  And here we are surely with new and better ways to actually produce the same item with modem technologies and methods?  It just feels like car dealers are making new ways to extract money from you time and time again.


....T_T would be able to explain in more detail why but as vehicle technology changes, so do factors regarding servicing. Some parts need to be changed earlier and others later than before.

Hopefully, I have now answered that.  But if anyone wants more info, then ask away.

If you think negatively and are full of mistrust of every car dealer (and indeed anyone else), then you'll both feel negative and encourage mistrust from others.

Absolutely, and I generally agree.  However, it is well-known that many, MANY franchised dealers, especially dealers of German and French cars - are shockingly useless - so it is perfectly understandable if peeps do have a poor impression of them, and are rightly cautious.  But I think we all agree that you personally are quite lucky that Loaders are one of the better more trustworthy, reliable and competent Dub stealers.  But I would have to say, that for every one decent stealer, there are probably 10-20 shockers.
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: MK5 GTI - Cambelt
« Reply #59 on: 08 April 2009, 11:18 »

I understand what your saying, and it will get done as soon as it can be afforded.  The point I am trying to make is, how is it that over the years these things have suddenly slipped forward several years and many thousand of miles.  10 years ago cars were going on to 60k and over 5 years before they changed them.  And here we are surely with new and better ways to actually produce the same item with modem technologies and methods?  It just feels like car dealers are making new ways to extract money from you time and time again.


....T_T would be able to explain in more detail why but as vehicle technology changes, so do factors regarding servicing. Some parts need to be changed earlier and others later than before.

If you think negatively and are full of mistrust of every car dealer (and indeed anyone else), then you'll both feel negative and encourage mistrust from others.

Did you get that from a fortune cookie  :grin:

It is a little suspect - especially when you consider that this 4 year rule was only introduced in the UK.  Not by VW in any other country.  Everywhere else it remains (as stated in the service book) inspect after 60k (and I'd personaly always replace at this mileage) and replace at 120k miles.  Is our air really that corrosive  :rolleyes:

Who still quotes 120k miles/180k kilometers for a timing belt change?  What proof do you actually have?  :rolleyes:

I personally think someone is kidding themselves.  Remember, the schedule stated in the service book is NOT the 'de-facto' schedule - manufacturers are perfectly free to amend and revise their own schedules.  Perhaps you would like to read page 5 of your service book again - I'll quote it for you:
Quote from: Volkswagen Service Schedule booklet, page5 (copyright: Volkswagen AG)
The service advisor at your Volkswagen dealership will advise you if, due to prevailing conditions, your vehicle will require more frequent work.

The work described there is correct at the time of going to print.  For technical reasons, subsequent changes are possible.

Your Volkswagen dealership has the most up to date information, and will inform you if additional work is required on your car . . .
Quote from: Volkswagen Service Schedule booklet, page10 (copyright: Volkswagen AG)
. . . additional maintenance jobs have to be carried out, depending on the conditions and environment in which your vehicle is used . . .

So, I personally think that 40k may be a tad on the cautious side, and that 60k miles may just about be spot on.  But then by leaving at 60k miles, which could then be at least 6 years - not only are you actually getting very close to the serious fact that the belt is extremly likely to immenently fail - but you also have to account for the classic phenominom of 'customer slip' - whereby the customer declines to have it done at the recommended 60k miles (due to the cost of having to pay for an expensive service, and maybe new brakes, new tyres, etc), and asks to have it done in say three months time, when they can afford it - only for them to never be seen again!  It happens all the time in the motor trade - which is why stealers are often seen as a little 'pushy' when recommending getting jobs like these done.

Yes, of course the stealers want to make a bit more money by doing the cam belt change, but they are also potentially saving the customer a bigger bill in the near future.  Afterall, if the belt is left, and it subsequently snaps, then that same stealer will be rubbing their hands in glee at a £1500 to £2000 engine job!  :smug:

How does that make any sense anyway, who does 120k in 4 years?!  Hardly anyone, thats who!  

So you have never heard of some drivers doing 30k miles a year?!  :rolleyes:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo