Standard GTI and Edition 30 Differences.....

[RedRobin]

....

Agreed, it's interesting to know the differences.

I wonder if we will ever truly know?

Linky : - Someone in Germany has the answer

[Teutonic_Tamer]

VW racing are directly accessible from the VW UK website.

From the VW UK Website Performance page (from the VW world drop down menu) at this address below -

http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/volkswagen-world/performance

Click VW racing, then VW racing again, then use the contact details tab bottom middle, and you end up with the contact details below:

Sporting, commercial & technical enquiries
Volkswagen Racing UK, 4 Quatro Park, Tanners Drive, Blakelands,
Milton Keynes MK14 5JA
Tel 01908 210088  Fax 01908 210044  email info@volkswagenracing.co.uk

And to finish taken directly from Racinglines website:

Racing Line Contact details - http://www.racinglineltd.co.uk/contactus.htm

RacingLine Limited

4 Quatro Park, Tanners Drive, Blakelands, Milton Keynes, MK14 5JA
Tel: 0044 (0)1908 210077
Fax: 0044 (0)1908 210044

I think Racing line and VW Racing are one and the same! and in bed with VW UK.

 
email: info@racingline.com

You are correct that VWRacing and RacingLine are the same company - but they are completly different to Volkswagen Racing.  Volkswagen Racing is a trading style of Volkswagen Group United Kingdom Limited, who are in turn a wholly owned subisiary of Volkswagen AG (also known as Volkswagen Group).  Volkswagen AG are the top level company which owns Volkswagen Passenger Cars, Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles, Audi AG, SEAT SA, Skoda Auto, Lamborghini SPA, Bentley Motors Limited and Bugatti Automobiles SAS.  Now, German company laws are extremely strict, and any company publically listed MUST publish annual accounts which list every single subsidiary company, even subisidiarys held worldwide outside of Germany.  So if you search Volkswagen AGs public documents, and look for all their holdings in the UK, you will see Volkswagen Group UK Ltd as the top-tier UK company, along with a whole raft of subsidiary companies, such as Audi Insurance, SEAT Finance, and so on.  Yes, you can find Volkswagen Racing, but VWRacing and RacingLine are NOT listed.  Indeed, you can search the entire Volkswagen AG database by specific phrases - and VWRacing and Racing Line are NOT listed.  Therefore - VWRacing and RacingLine do NOT have any 'official' link with Volkswagen AG.  Furthermore, Volkswagen Racing is linked to Volkswagen Group Motorsport - http://www.volkswagen-group-motorsport.info/index.php?.SID&sprache=e&newsprache=2 - which is an official Volkswagen AG site - and again, no link to VWRacing or Racing Line!

Now look on Companies House for Volkswagen Racing, and then VWRacing and RacingLine - the latter two basically share an identical registered office, albeit under two different company registrations, but with the same directors, and an alarming 'history'.  But then look for Volkswagen Racing, and you will find that it links back to VW Group UK Ltd, which is a completely different registered address, different directors, different accounts.

So I stand by my earlier comments - VWRacing and Racing Line are NOT owned by, or have any legal connection to either Volkswagen Group United Kingdom Limited (and/or any of its subsidiaries), and/or Volkswagen AG.  If you look carefully through the RacingLine website, they clearly state they are a PRIVATE company.

So, some nitty gritty detail:
Volkswagen Racing
taken from http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/volkswagen-world/performance/racing

Discover why we've been a big name in motor sport for the last thirty years

Dakar Rally – Run by Volkswagen AG – VWRacing/RacingLine have NOTHING to do with this

UK Volkswagen Racing Cup - http://www.vw-cup.co.uk - is run via a joint venture between Volkswagen UK (http://www.volkswagen.co.uk) and Volkswagen Motorsport Germany (http://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com).  Again, VWRacing/RacingLine have NOTHING to do with ‘running’ this, although they do prepare and operate some cars for the race meetings.

VWRacing / RacingLine.com

taken from http://www.racinglineltd.co.uk/welcome_history.htm

The company was sold into private ownership in 2001, and has flourished since then into a successful multi-million pound business

Now look at the Companies House data under 03664690 - it lists RacingLine as a 'small company'.  Legal definitions of a 'small company' under UK Filing Requirements:

A small company is one that meets at least two of the following three criteria:- ·  annual turnover must not be more £2,800,000; ·  the balance sheet total must not exceed £1,400,000; ·  the average number of employees must not be more than 50.

So they are NOT a 'multi-milion pound business' as they claim.  Just look at the full detail of all the registered documents - repeated changes of Directors, repeated filings for mortgage charges, repeated changes of Company Secretary, repeated changes of Registered Office - NINE Directors resigned, and the company Auditor resigned.  Now, anyone who knows anything about commerical companies will state that that conduct is seriously fishy.

So, at best, VWRacing and RacingLine are being seriously economical with the truth.  Yes, they may run some of the cars in the VW Cup, but like I have repeatedly said, they are just another private company, no different to say Regal who also prepared an ran cars in the VW Cup.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I think Racing line and VW Racing are one and the same! and in bed with VW UK.

....Yes they are the same - Well, to be technical, Racing Line own VW Racing IIRC.

More BS.  Companies House is the ONLY authority on UK company ownership - and the two are completely separate companies - so if one folds, they could potentially move assets to the other!  But they both have the same registered office, and clearly operate as one combined company from the same premises.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

"In bed with?" - I'll be amused to hear Mark's response when we next speak, but certainly close!

I was thinking of asking Mark, but I felt really stupid ringing him just to ask him something thats so obvious and also didn't want to waste the guys time   No doubt he would have explained in detail, but I would have felt a right prat afterwards. 

Hell! Why am I having to prove all this?

Exactly.  I hope TT admits he just got it wrong - or at least stops talking about VWR without knowing their status with VW.

Nope, I am 100% correct.  Look at the Companies House data.  I get really pissed off when peeps slag me off like this.  If you doubt the accuracy of the Companies House data, make a formal request from your Member of Parliament, and they will confirm basically everything which I have proven.  VWR are simply a private company who has been contracted by Volkswagen UK to prep a few cars, and run a race series.  End of!

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Wrong.  The S3 has many unique uprated components which are NOT shared with any other TFSI engine, including different pistons, cylinder head, PCV, and camshafts. 

The Seat cupra engine seems to have the same part numbers on ETKA for the parts you list as the S3 only

Cylinder head complete 06F103063P
Piston complete 06D107066K
Camshaft exhaust 06F109102D
Camshaft intake 06F109101G

I can categorically confirm, as a fact, that those part numbers are NOT the same as the S3 engine.  The S3 pistons actually have a different diameter to the rest of the 2.0TFSI engines.

But hey ho, if you want to believe this shocking myth arrogantly portrayed by a few alleged 'VAG specialists' - then feel free!

I forgot all about this thread.
May i ask your source of the information please, thanks.
May i also please ask you to explain to me why the part numbers are the same on every versions of ETKA i have seen to date if what you are saying is the case. I just want to clear up in my own head why these are shown the same part numbers on all versions of ETKA i have seen to date if its not the case.







TT, Im not saying your wrong, im not saying im right. All i would like to do is to clear this up in my own head and thats all. Nothing more. Im not arguing or anything i would just like to know is ETKA wrong? What is your source? Why do i not understand. Is it something i have simply missed?
Im confused please explain.

What ETKA versions are you using?  I am on r7.0 u712 for VW and Audi (seat and skoda are slightly diffiernt), with NO hardware lock, and the S3 piston is now version L, whereas the BYD (Ed30/Pirelli) and BWJ (Cupra) both list the K version.  For the crankcase, the S3 and Ed30 are the same, but the Cupra is different.  For the cylinder head, the Ed30 and Cupra are the same, but the S3 is different.  They all share the same exhaust camshaft, but the S3 has a different inlet camshaft.  The S3 has unique PCV, unique clutch, unique intercooler (which I think is about the only common thing we all agree on!), and unique ignition coils.  I got all these from real VINs for a whole load of different S3s, Cupras, GTIs (with AXX and BWA), along with a Pirelli and a couple of Ed30s.  And I have also confirmed the piston and camshaft parts with the 'pukka' ETKA at my local TPS.

This was all researched from reading on an Audi RS fourm whereby a seriously respected French tuner who has direct ties with 'quattro GmbH' (Audis private subsidiary, who R&D all Audi S and RS cars), but who was hoodwinked into beliveing the Ed30 had identical engine internals as the S3, only to find out at his own cost they don't.

Also, the motorsport company who ran the Seat Cupra Challenge in 2007 were categorically instructed they could NOT use the Cupras BWJ engine, and had to use the S3 BHZ engine, due to the S3 being a much 'stronger' engine than that of the 240PS Cupra lump.  They did PDF the doc and publish it, but it was only live for the 2007 season!

A while back i also did this on another forum

The way i did this was go into each verson of ETKA and write down on a bit of paper the numbers for head complete, piston complete, camshaft intake, camshaft exhaust for each engine code for the edition 30 given above and the cupra and S3.

I then compared the numbers on my list, this is my findings. Im not saying they are correct.

S3 BHZ
Cylinder head complete 06F103063P or 06F103063PX
Piston complete 06D107066K
Camshaft exhaust 06F109102D
Camshaft intake 06F109101G

The S3 head is AJ, and isnt shared with any other engine.  S3 pistons are now L, though they were listed as a K, but with a supercession.  Exhaust cam is correct, but inlet is wrong, as it should be H

Seat Cupra BWJ
Cylinder head complete 06F103063P or 06F103063PX
Piston complete 06D107066K
Camshaft exhaust 06F109102D
Camshaft intake 06F109101G

Edition 30 BYD
Cylinder head complete 06F103063PX
Piston complete 06D107066K
Camshaft exhaust 06F109102D
Camshaft intake 06F109101G

Those look correct.

Normal GTi BWA
Cylinder head complete 06F103063NX
Piston complete 06D107066C
Camshaft exhaust 06F109102B
Camshaft intake 06F109101B

Normal GTi AXX
Cylinder head complete 06F103063NX
Piston complete 06D107066D
Camshaft exhaust 06F109102B
Camshaft intake 06F109101B

Heads are D, everything else is correct.

I have an excel document, but I can't upload it here, and I don't have any personal webspace!

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Thats exactly the info I have been given by a lot of tuners - well JKM and VWR to name two.... however, there is STILL a slight possibilty that TT is correct after all.  It depends on two separate things that are not clear.

1. The part numbers are given against what is the engine model - i.e. BHZ and BZC for the S3 and BYD or BDK for the Ed30.  Are the parts unique for each engine model or are they identical as long as the part number is the same?  I don't know how ETKA works here, but it would be interesting to know.

ETKA lists individual parts, and then in the column on the far right, lists all the engine codes which they can be fitted on.  However, some parts may have a revision A, B, C etc, and the same engine code can be listed for more than one!    Sometimes the part numbers are merely 'historical' in that when you double click them, it comes up with a completely unlisted supercession.  But the best way is simply to use the VIN number, which then accesses VWAGs online database, and then definatively gives the correct part.  And it is this online look up with real VINs from real S3s, Cupras, Pirellis, Ed30s etc which is what is showing the differences.

2. Apparently, the K03 turbo in the 1.8T Mk4 GTI has the same part number as the K03 in the Mk5. However, it is a compeltely different design and is uprated.  This is in either a recent issue of PVW or Golf+ in an article.  So part numbers can be the same, but parts different - but is this only in the case of an older part being superceded as is the case here - and so not applicable to the S3/Ed30 debate - or can contemporary parts be different?

Hmmmm, journalistic licence again.  The Mk4 GTI had the 1.8 20valve turbo engine - do you know the engine code?  Anyway, all the turbos on the 1.8 20vT begin with 06A, whereas all the turbos on the Mk5s (and Cupras/S3s) begin with 06F.  But maybe the mag was quoting KKKs own part number for the turbo itself - maybe the K04 turbos are idential, but are just 'housed' in different exhaust manifolds?

[Teutonic_Tamer]

....

I might add that all this debate/chat about Ed30-GTI differences in their part numbers takes us into the realms of geekish anoraks!

Why do we need to know?

I think that actual part numbers can be taken as fact, particularly when sourced from Volkswagen Germanys own database.  Then we can work from there to dispel these unhelpful internet myths!

[Teutonic_Tamer]

We don't.
Hell i don't careless either way to tell you the truth but what i do care about is I like to resolve issues that are in my head, just for my own peace of mind. I would like to know were im going wrong, what have i forgot or missed. I guess you could call it self improvment. We all learn from our mistakes through life but often only if someone tells you were you have gone wrong.

Ditto.. plus I'd like to know for sure if I have an S3 engine lurking under the bonnet of my Ed30 

You have a fair bit of an S3 engine, but not the whole shooting match! 

[R32UK]

oooohhhhh!!!!! I love it when TT makes a come back!!

no wonder you were gone for so long, it must have taken yonks to write all that. Welcome back TT hope all is well

[RedRobin]

oooohhhhh!!!!! I love it when TT makes a come back!!

no wonder you were gone for so long, it must have taken yonks to write all that. Welcome back TT hope all is well

....I've got very mixed feelings about it when he comes back! Lots of extra work trying to separate the extremely useful, helpful, and accurate info from some of the "utter BS" (to use his term) he also writes.