Author Topic: Break-in controversy?  (Read 9388 times)

Offline TagnuT

  • I live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,372
  • Edition 30
Re: Break-in controversy?
« Reply #20 on: 03 June 2007, 17:53 »
Every time i read this subject header I thinks its about car security not running in! :wink:
Bye Bye Edition 30

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

  • Forum addict
  • *
  • Posts: 4,562
  • GreasedMonkey - HoofHearted - GTI now mod'ed, ASK!
Re: Break-in controversy?
« Reply #21 on: 05 June 2007, 14:27 »
They said I was the only one who could keep TT in check :grin: Only kidding.

Chalk out the battle lines . . .  :grin:  :grin:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
-----
'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline Teutonic_Tamer

  • Forum addict
  • *
  • Posts: 4,562
  • GreasedMonkey - HoofHearted - GTI now mod'ed, ASK!
Re: Break-in controversy?
« Reply #22 on: 05 June 2007, 14:36 »
I recently had the oil in my car topped up after 3600miles - dipstick was halfway between min and max, but (only?) used 500ml of the longlife stuff.  is that normal?

The oil consumption can vary depending upon how you drive it.  It can be bu&&er all, or upto 1 litre per 1000 miles.

Also, dunno if anyone else has encountered this, but when i purchased the oil from vw, they didn't give me any of the castrol stuff - they gave this shell helix ultra....blah blah.....stuff but assured/guaranteed that the oil was compatible with the car.  They said they had problems getting the castrol juice and may not supply it in the future, replacing it with the shell juice.

As long as the Shell brew was approved by VW to the 504.00 standard - then you are fine.  Indeed, any oil to the 504.00 standard would be OK, though I'd probably avoid Tesco Value LongLife 3 liquid gold  :wink:, and I'd also avoid any Mobil 1 brew, 'cause they lie about their approvals.  :shocked:  :rolleyes:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
-----
'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline S11EPS

  • I live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,305
  • No golfs here. Only a C63 mercedes
Re: Break-in controversy?
« Reply #23 on: 05 June 2007, 14:57 »
Speaking from personal experience, I have never, ever followed a manufacturers running-in advice, having always given my cars full beans from the off, and not once has it come back to bite me.

My current car (Impreza) has survived almost three years and 80-odd thousand miles of hard driving since day one, and uses no oil between 10k mile service intervals. When my new car arrives on September 1st I will give that exactly the same treatment, because not only has this never given me any problems, but it has produced notably faster cars - colleagues and friends who have read and stuck to manufacturers guidlines in identical cars have ended up with markably slower cars.

Before anyone suggests that it may produce long term problems, look again at my Impreza. 80-odd thousand miles in just under three years - neither time nor mileage benchmarks can be considered short-term. The car still starts on the button, is sewing-machine smooth, and doesn't leak or burn a drop of oil. Yet it is faster than two friends identical-year Imprezas of identical spec....

One final point to consider - One of (if not the) largest fleet operators in the UK - the Police - do not follow manufacturers guidlines for running in; new cars are received and are straight out in active duty, without imposed rev-limits. If lack of running in bought-on identifiable premature wear do you not think the police would adopt a running-in procedure, or have the cars pre-run-in?

The greatest leveller of them all - the Carousel

Offline wantmygti

  • I live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,140
Re: Break-in controversy?
« Reply #24 on: 05 June 2007, 15:47 »
Speaking from personal experience, I have never, ever followed a manufacturers running-in advice, having always given my cars full beans from the off, and not once has it come back to bite me.

My current car (Impreza) has survived almost three years and 80-odd thousand miles of hard driving since day one, and uses no oil between 10k mile service intervals. When my new car arrives on September 1st I will give that exactly the same treatment, because not only has this never given me any problems, but it has produced notably faster cars - colleagues and friends who have read and stuck to manufacturers guidlines in identical cars have ended up with markably slower cars.

Before anyone suggests that it may produce long term problems, look again at my Impreza. 80-odd thousand miles in just under three years - neither time nor mileage benchmarks can be considered short-term. The car still starts on the button, is sewing-machine smooth, and doesn't leak or burn a drop of oil. Yet it is faster than two friends identical-year Imprezas of identical spec....

One final point to consider - One of (if not the) largest fleet operators in the UK - the Police - do not follow manufacturers guidlines for running in; new cars are received and are straight out in active duty, without imposed rev-limits. If lack of running in bought-on identifiable premature wear do you not think the police would adopt a running-in procedure, or have the cars pre-run-in?

Very interesting stuff, I can certainly see the technical argument.
2017 GTi Clubsport arrived June 2017
2007 Shadow Blue GTi, sold on after 10 years ownership

Offline SteveS

  • I live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,338
  • GTI ED30
Re: Break-in controversy?
« Reply #25 on: 05 June 2007, 15:54 »
do you have stats or could it just be down to the driver? you being a super duper driver ?
SteveS

ED30: Carbonio Intake & Filter | Blueflame TBE | Ebach Sportlines | Neuspeed Torque Arm Insert | Forge DV | REVO Stage2 [353BHP/360lb/ft]

Offline S11EPS

  • I live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,305
  • No golfs here. Only a C63 mercedes
Re: Break-in controversy?
« Reply #26 on: 05 June 2007, 16:36 »
do you have stats or could it just be down to the driver? you being a super duper driver ?

Hah hah, thanks for the compliment (I think) but when we have tested against each others cars it has been from a rolling start, or a simple drag, so late braking/high-speed cornering/better driver etc doesn't really factor into it - it really doesn't take a good driver to get these things off the line and give it full beans. Granted, there may be milli-seconds in gearchange times, but my friends are just as brutal as I am....

Also, we have all driven each others cars and (much to their dismay) my friends agree mine feels the quickest of the bunch.

At the last track day I did at Oulton I had little problems keeping up with a friends PPP'd STi, which should have somewhere in the region of 100bhp more than my car. Now, he knows Oulton park well, and he can drive (I actually met him last year when doing a trip to the Nurburgring) so that wasn't a lack of talent on his part that allowed me to stay nailed to his chuff. He should have demolished me....

My final piece of evidence I'd like to offer in the debate is my previous car - my Mk4 PD150 GTi golf.

Again, a standard car. Always serviced on the button, always allowed to fully warm up and cool down properly. But, totally leathered from new. Rolling roaded at our own golfgti.co.uk rolling road day at AMD - 186bhp and nearly 280ftlb's of torque - well above what it should have been churning out.

Now, I know PD engines are notorious for over-delivering, but most re-mappers claim only 190bhp as a stage one tune, and mine was turning out nearly that as a standard car.

So, I offer a potential link - ignore the run-in procedure, gain more power? It has worked for me (with no down-sides), I have driven and am still driving the evidence. I'll let you know if it's worked again, come mid-October-ish...

If you haven't read the RR article, check it out. I think my little standard diseasle held its own quite nicely...

http://www.golfgti.co.uk/viewpastevents.asp?eventID=42


The greatest leveller of them all - the Carousel

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

  • Forum addict
  • *
  • Posts: 4,562
  • GreasedMonkey - HoofHearted - GTI now mod'ed, ASK!
Re: Break-in controversy?
« Reply #27 on: 05 June 2007, 21:30 »
Speaking from personal experience, I have never, ever followed a manufacturers running-in advice, having always given my cars full beans from the off, and not once has it come back to bite me.

Hmm, there may be elements of luck, your skill, or actual engineering principles which have, to date, served you well.  However, would you feel comfortable if another poster here followed your principles, only to end up with engine failure or some lesser engine probs, and whinge "I was only following what S11EPS recommended" ??

Irrespective of what may or may not work for one inividual, or weather it is based on engineering priciples found on some race engine tuners web site - I would still err on the side of caution, and recommend only following the manufacturers instructions.  Afterall, it will be VW, and not S11EPS, who pick up the bill for any warranty work!  :wink:

My current car (Impreza) has survived almost three years and 80-odd thousand miles of hard driving since day one, and uses no oil between 10k mile service intervals.

Yebut, ricers are known for a little more reliability than european motors!  And 10k servicing intervals, presumably with a high spec fully synthetic oil is still a relatively conservative regime (but not to Yanks !!).

When my new car arrives on September 1st I will give that exactly the same treatment, because not only has this never given me any problems, but it has produced notably faster cars - colleagues and friends who have read and stuck to manufacturers guidlines in identical cars have ended up with markably slower cars.

Again, hmmmm.  A standard car can be made to release its' ultimate power, even if it was run-in to manufacturers guidelines.  Regular, hard use after the initial run-in period will still release the same ultimate power as a car thrashed from day one.  Your mates may simply not be driving as hard as you in general terms.  Indeed, SWMBOs last Astra was repeated thought to be a 2 litre SRI, yet it was only a 1.8 115PS - it was babied during the run-in period, but after that, was regularly "cleared out", and the tecchys at the main stealer said it was way faster than all the other 1.8 Astras they ever had, even the later 130PS variants.

Before anyone suggests that it may produce long term problems, look again at my Impreza. 80-odd thousand miles in just under three years - neither time nor mileage benchmarks can be considered short-term. The car still starts on the button, is sewing-machine smooth, and doesn't leak or burn a drop of oil. Yet it is faster than two friends identical-year Imprezas of identical spec....

As detailed above. ^^^^  Also, 80k miles in three years would indicate that the car has to deal with very few cold starts.  Indeed, regular, sustained high speed cruising is considerably kinder to an engine, compared to one with frequent cold starts, short journeys, or dawdling around towns.

One final point to consider - One of (if not the) largest fleet operators in the UK - the Police - do not follow manufacturers guidlines for running in; new cars are received and are straight out in active duty, without imposed rev-limits. If lack of running in bought-on identifiable premature wear do you not think the police would adopt a running-in procedure, or have the cars pre-run-in?

Erm, I think you may be wrong there.  Firstly, the Police is not the largest fleet operator, even when all 52 forces are combined as a whole figure.  The Police forces that I've had contact with ARE told to comply with running procedures, with a caveat of some "emergency response" exceptions.  Given that, most "high speed" operational vehicles (not the routine "panda" type patrol cars) are usually past the run-in period after just a few days anyway.  Then there is the maintenance issues, Police vehicles always have a daily inspection (DI) and the oil (and other levels) is always kept topped up to the max.  They are serviced either on, or before manufacturers schedules, invariably to a far greater standard than any civvy motor, with genuine parts.  Police vehicles are usually disposed of after three years, and dispite the popular myth that they are "excellent examples" - many are well shagged out, some so bad they are crushed as being unsellable.

Regarding "other" large vehicle fleets - I used to work on such large fleets, and was also involved in their technical documentation - and I can assure you, running in procedures were extremely rigidly enforced.
« Last Edit: 05 June 2007, 21:35 by Teutonic_Tamer »
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
-----
'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo


Offline Teutonic_Tamer

  • Forum addict
  • *
  • Posts: 4,562
  • GreasedMonkey - HoofHearted - GTI now mod'ed, ASK!
Re: Break-in controversy?
« Reply #28 on: 05 June 2007, 21:49 »
My final piece of evidence I'd like to offer in the debate is my previous car - my Mk4 PD150 GTi golf.

Again, a standard car. Always serviced on the button, always allowed to fully warm up and cool down properly. But, totally leathered from new. Rolling roaded at our own golfgti.co.uk rolling road day at AMD - 186bhp and nearly 280ftlb's of torque - well above what it should have been churning out.

Now, I know PD engines are notorious for over-delivering, but most re-mappers claim only 190bhp as a stage one tune, and mine was turning out nearly that as a standard car.

So, I offer a potential link - ignore the run-in procedure, gain more power? It has worked for me (with no down-sides), I have driven and am still driving the evidence. I'll let you know if it's worked again, come mid-October-ish...

If you haven't read the RR article, check it out. I think my little standard diseasle held its own quite nicely...

http://www.golfgti.co.uk/viewpastevents.asp?eventID=42

All that proves is the wildly different variations, on a variety of different cars - on the impression that every engine should only produce exactly the same power, as was written on the "tin".  Indeed, as you rightly intimated, it is well known that most VAG engines will easily offer more power than the rated output on the VIN sticker.  The 1.8 20valve turbos were a classic example, with many TT 180 owners reporting figures extremely close to the "bigger" 225 motors.  Same story with the S3s.  You've also shown that some engines produce less than the rated power.

Now with this in mind, you can't claim that all those producing power in excess of the rated output were thrashed to hell from day one, whilst those which made less power were all run-in properly, and are "suffering because of that"!  Indeed, I'd guess that many of those on the RR were maybe second owners, so it would be nigh-on impossible to account for the integrity of the running procedures.  The ONLY thing which can be determined with any resonable confidence, is those that produce power above the rated output are regularly driven hard, and those that produce less power, are regularly driven like a granny.  :nerd:
Sean - Independent Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
-----
'06/7 Golf Mk5 GTI 5dr (BWA) DSG, colour coded,

I feel like a homo