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Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: synnea on 09 October 2008, 08:32

Title: What now for the R32.....
Post by: synnea on 09 October 2008, 08:32
Hi all.

I am keen to find out your views on ownership of the R32. It seems now that the MK5 R32 will indeed be the last V6 Golf. As many of you read in the past I sold my R32 to my brother but he is now thinking of selling it on given the current climate, tax, fuel etc.

I still feel very attached to that R32 and have been considering buying it back again. I think it is more because I want to hold on to what I now feel will be more of a classic or unique car. Not sure if thats the way to put it but if you understand where I am coming from given that seems no more will be made in V6 form. I love my GTI but do miss that V6 soundtrack.

Do you think it is best to get rid of the R now as tax will likely only hit it harder and harder every year? The new GTI models to come and .:R equivalent will have better fuel consumption and lower CO2 output.

So in essence the question I have is this - spend now to keep the last V6 Golf for many years or keep my GTI and save up for a new GTI/.:R model in 2 or 3 years time. Ideally I want to keep both GTI and R32 but that cant work  :laugh:

I am keen even more so to hear your views on the R32 if it is even now regarded as more of a 'keeper' as the years go on there will be fewer and fewer about.

Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: andrewparker on 09 October 2008, 09:20
I'm not sure it will become a classic but I've no doubt it's still an incredibly desirable car. I overtook a cruising steel grey R32 this morning, xenon's sparkling in the morning sunshine, and it looked lovely. For a moment I really wanted one!
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: joesgti on 09 October 2008, 09:23
i sometimes feel like i really really want one too!!  :lipsrsealed:

and with the prices that they can be picked up for!! seems like a no brainer,
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Greenouse on 09 October 2008, 09:28
I'm not sure it will become a classic but I've no doubt it's still an incredibly desirable car. I overtook a cruising steel grey R32 this morning, xenon's sparkling in the morning sunshine, and it looked lovely. For a moment I really wanted one!

Can't agree with you Andrew. The R32 will almost certainly be a classic in years to come. It's the most striking of the Golf range and as said before the V6 is likely never to be seen again in a Golf! It's certainly a car I will consider adding to my 'fleet' in a few years time..........
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: andrewparker on 09 October 2008, 09:34
Whilst I don't know exactly how a car qualifies to be a classic, I do know that the R32 is not the most highly rated car in the current Golf range. The GTi has always overshadowed it.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Greenouse on 09 October 2008, 09:37
It's a hot hatch with a fantastic V6 soundtrack that's 4 wheel drive and goes like stink! At 7-10 years old costing around 5k who wouldn't want one to play with?? Classic!  :wink:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: andrewparker on 09 October 2008, 09:40
Does it have noticeably better traction than the GTi?
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: joesgti on 09 October 2008, 09:50
Does it have noticeably better traction than the GTi?

 :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: ................yes!
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: bacillus on 09 October 2008, 09:52
Does it have noticeably better traction than the GTi?
well the r32 is AWD whilst the gti is just FWD so yes.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: andrewparker on 09 October 2008, 09:54
Does it understeer more?
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Greenouse on 09 October 2008, 10:08
Im sure the R guys will chip in but not whenever I've driven one no. Your more likely to get a 4 wheel drift in the wet, or even a tad of oversteer!  :evil:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: andrewparker on 09 October 2008, 10:09
I like the sound of that! :grin:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: MAT ed30 on 09 October 2008, 10:11
Does it have noticeably better traction than the GTi?
well the r32 is AWD whilst the gti is just FWD so yes.

not true its front wheel drive and is only 4 wheel drive when traction is lost at the front :wink:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: synnea on 09 October 2008, 10:45
Quote

not true its front wheel drive and is only 4 wheel drive when traction is lost at the front :wink:

100% correct.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: LesR32 on 09 October 2008, 11:24
Let me tell u now that the R32 is one of the best handling cars on the road along side subs and evos. TypeR's, ST's, GTI, VXR, u name it. The computer system setup to run the car as 4wd as required is amazin... This tread is about my car, and i am totally gutted to have to get rid of it. Now it looks like i am gonna have to drive a torque steering Astra VXR in the name of saving money :(
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: andrewparker on 09 October 2008, 12:03
I'd give up beer before resorting to an Astra VXR.

Are R32s that expensive to run?
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: 182_blue on 09 October 2008, 12:05
Quote

not true its front wheel drive and is only 4 wheel drive when traction is lost at the front :wink:

100% correct.

exactly how much money do you think you will save getting a VXR ?
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: AlanD on 09 October 2008, 12:06
Rob from this forum recently purchased a VXR . . . .
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: MAT ed30 on 09 October 2008, 12:07
Quote

not true its front wheel drive and is only 4 wheel drive when traction is lost at the front :wink:

100% correct.

exactly how much money do you think you will save getting a VXR ?

and how much money will u lose owning a vxr :shocked:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: topher on 09 October 2008, 12:08
Quote

not true its front wheel drive and is only 4 wheel drive when traction is lost at the front :wink:

100% correct.

More like 10% correct. It works on a constant 90/10 distribution and sends torque to the rear based on rotational differences front->rear. It doesn't have to be 'slip' :wink:

The GTI was never rated higher, just a better value package. Overpriced, quick, tons of toys as standard, not many around.. all the qualities needed for a VW classic :grin: (scirocco storm springs to mind)
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: MAT ed30 on 09 October 2008, 12:11
i am an ex mk4 r32 owner so know how the handle and also had neuspeed arbs on mine and it made a big change to the car :smiley:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Jimp on 09 October 2008, 12:53
i am an ex mk4 r32 owner so know how the handle and also had neuspeed arbs on mine and it made a big change to the car :smiley:

What made you swap for a GTI? The mk4 R32 was a fantastic car so I'm kinda curious  :smiley:.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: chrissyr32 on 09 October 2008, 16:35
Being a previous owner of 2 MK5 R32,S!!! I do miss having one.The grip was unreal actually better than my RS4!!! Certanily miss the exhaust note and again the R32 on full chat got me more attention than the RS4 curenntly.
Go for it and get one as i always say "you only live once" and in a few years time you wont be able to enjoy a peformance car in this f**king global warming,tree hugging world we live in!!! :angry: :angry:
I personally didnt think the running costs were unmanageable but again depends on mileage and useage i suppose.

GO ON GET ONE,YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO. :grin:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Manu_R32 on 09 October 2008, 16:50
Iv owned my R32 for about 6 months i think...im not really good with dates and i certainly have enjoyed those few months of driving! The running costs of the car are not that bad, obviously depending on mileage and to be fair petrol prices in Gibratlar are fairly cheaper than here in the UK....Having owned a GTI before my R32 i must add that traction is really noticeable and 4WD can be fun when you know what your doing...not that i 100% know what im doing but you get me...the sound of that V6 sound track is Lush as people here in wales say and i deffinatley do miss it!  :sad:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: MAT ed30 on 09 October 2008, 16:51
i am an ex mk4 r32 owner so know how the handle and also had neuspeed arbs on mine and it made a big change to the car :smiley:

What made you swap for a GTI? The mk4 R32 was a fantastic car so I'm kinda curious  :smiley:.

simple i wanted a white gti  :wink: as i could not get a white r32 at the time and the ed30 is so much easier to tune and is cheaper to tune and fuel was not a part of it at all, i just like the way the ed30 looks  :cool: no v6 but i can live with that
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: luca on 09 October 2008, 16:53
I keep wondering to myself if i should have gone for an R over the ed30. Im happy with the ed30 but everytime i hear an R i just wonder :undecided:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: MAT ed30 on 09 October 2008, 16:58
I keep wondering to myself if i should have gone for an R over the ed30. Im happy with the ed30 but everytime i hear an R i just wonder :undecided:


dont wonder you will only get lost  :laugh:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: luca on 09 October 2008, 17:01
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: VeeDubDan on 09 October 2008, 17:05
In the entire time I owned my MK5 R32 I never stopped having a grin on my face each time I heard the exhaust crackle as you blipped the loud pedal!!
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: mad man gti on 09 October 2008, 17:15
does everyone think the same on here :laugh:       
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Hurdy on 09 October 2008, 17:17
I love the sound of the R32 and the grip.

I just wanted more agility and power :evil:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: R32UK on 09 October 2008, 18:11
Oooh look a R32 thread :grin: :grin:

The .:R is a truely wonderful car as Im sure you know. Goes like stink in any weather and fits in absolutely anywhere. Sounds brilliant, and does everything a family car should do (except the slightly smaller boot which can be a pain :sad:). Its a small compromise :wink:

The down side is the cost of ownership. I would put my average mpg at 26mpg which is quite reasonable considering I dont hang around but then I dont drive quickly all the time. That doesnt include any motorway miles so if you do those... then expect a little more. As for Tax.. well you only pay it once a year and ats really not that much more than anything else on the road thats fun to drive.

Apparently prices have fallen steeply, but after speaking to my dealer they insist that its simply in-line with all car prices :undecided: So Im not too sure about that. The truth is unless you planning on getting mega rich overnight... then the chances are that engines like the 3.2 wont be around much longer. Espacially in relatively small cars such as the Golf.

The car does everything you could possibly want it to do and then some... i am 95% sure I will be buying it after my lease expires... then the modding can begin :evil:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: carl1 on 09 October 2008, 22:15
Im seriously thinking about going back to one.When i see one i miss mine.as we all no not the fastest car but a great alrounder and cruser.Its just the tax for me,yes we all know the "if you can afford 15k+ car you can afford £400 £440 next year tax" but they are taking the pi$$.I would want to be able to go legaly faster than anyone else paying cheaper tax and park where ever i wanted as you pay more tax by using more petrol etc.Its just not fare.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: carl1 on 09 October 2008, 22:27
And i how could i forget that silky smooth engine,no matter how good the ed30 engine is for power/gaining power and fuel economy it always seems like a sowing machine  next to that glourious v6 :smiley:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: gazbutmk5gti on 09 October 2008, 23:29
Being a previous owner of 2 MK5 R32,S!!! I do miss having one.The grip was unreal actually better than my RS4!!! Certanily miss the exhaust note and again the R32 on full chat got me more attention than the RS4 curenntly.
Go for it and get one as i always say "you only live once" and in a few years time you wont be able to enjoy a peformance car in this f**king global warming,tree hugging world we live in!!! :angry: :angry:
I personally didnt think the running costs were unmanageable but again depends on mileage and useage i suppose.

GO ON GET ONE,YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO. :grin:

Don't let T T hear you say that :laugh:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: davefish on 09 October 2008, 23:30
I really hope the Mk5 is the last V6 hatch, it will make it even more special! I won't bore everyone with how amazing I think my R32 is but the grip is awesome! It does have a heavy front so if you go into a sharp corner too hot it will run wide. I've since had the Haldex Controller fitted and in race mode (70% RWD) understeer is GONE, turn in is sharper and it's feels like it's on bloody rails!!!

I’ve followed an old shape Scooby with the back end fish tailing round a sweeping 80mph corner whilst the .:R remained planted and feeling like it could go 90+ (private track of cause). In the wet the grip is even more outstanding, you would swear it was dry. And… windows down on a road with walls either side is laugh out loud good. Mine sounds like an absolute animal now it’s done 13k!

To the OP.. Buy it back and modify!

Oh, and as I'm still excited, these arrived at my door today ;-)

19" BBS CH  :grin:

(http://www.aylis.com/temp/bbsch01.jpg)
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: AlanD on 10 October 2008, 10:14
Would love to see what they look like on the R. Pics asap !
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: MAT ed30 on 10 October 2008, 10:19
oh my god dave at last you have some wheels  :laugh: its about time  :wink:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: davefish on 10 October 2008, 12:22
oh my god dave at last you have some wheels  :laugh: its about time  :wink:
Haha!

I'm so pleased, they’ve easily surpassed my expectations. From the subtle ridge on the outer lip to the bright silver finish that seems to sparkle. They're also lighter then I expected, definitely lighter than the CMS wheels. It's a bit embarrassing to have CH's given the amount of pain and suffering I've put myself through with wheel decisions but I'm now content. Can’t wait for fitting on Monday!
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: MAT ed30 on 10 October 2008, 13:28
Bbs wheels on a dub you can't go wrong mate,it's going to look the dogs nuts
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: R32UK on 10 October 2008, 15:49
got to agree they look the dogs!!! Looked great an Gaz'z car... one of my faves RIP :cool:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 10 October 2008, 18:12
Does it have noticeably better traction than the GTi?
well the r32 is AWD whilst the gti is just FWD so yes.

No it is not.  The R32 has a "part time" on-demand 4wd.  Most of the time, it just operates as a front wheel drive - with a heavy asthmatic engine well forward of the front axle.!
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 10 October 2008, 18:16
Let me tell u now that the R32 is one of the best handling cars on the road along side subs and evos. TypeR's, ST's, GTI, VXR, u name it. The computer system setup to run the car as 4wd as required is amazin...

I am sorry, but that just aint true.  The R32 does understeer at low speeds, and no matter what you do with the throttle you can not dial out this.  At high speeds, the R32 is very "twitchy" on the limit.  The GTI is a much more neutral handling car.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: gazbutmk5gti on 10 October 2008, 18:27
got to agree they look the dogs!!! Looked great an Gaz'z car... one of my faves RIP :cool:

Thanx I'm touched :cry:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 10 October 2008, 18:28
Quote

not true its front wheel drive and is only 4 wheel drive when traction is lost at the front :wink:

100% correct.

More like 10% correct. It works on a constant 90/10 distribution and sends torque to the rear based on rotational differences front->rear. It doesn't have to be 'slip' :wink:

No it dont.  You been reading too much crap from the fantasists at Haldex Traction.

For the nity-grity detail, for all standard Haldex controlers (and not aftermarket ones like a Gen2), the Haldex clutch is operated with a base setting of 5% clamping force (this is to keep the oil warm, as cold oil will shear the friction linings off the clutch plates).  Therefore, the default torque distribution, front to rear is 97.5% front to 2.5% rear.  The rears are NOT pre-emptively engaged - the rear axle is only sent more drive AFTER the electronics controlling the clutch has sensed that the front wheels are rotating faster than the rears - ie wheelspin.  However, this is not a "finite" measurement, because the Haldex controller needs to allow for different axle speeds when cornering with equal grip - which is why permanent 4wd vehicles need a centre differential, and which the Haldex is not!

There is only ONE car in the VAG mainstream range which uses Haldex in a pre-emptive mode, and that is the Audi R8.  The Veyron also uses pre-emptive engagement, but that is because both axles have a Haldex, and the leviathon wouldn't get off the line otherwise.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 10 October 2008, 18:35
I've since had the Haldex Controller fitted and in race mode (70% RWD) understeer is GONE, turn in is sharper and it's feels like it's on bloody rails!!

That can NOT happen.  Someone being feeding you fairytale physics.  The only time a Haldex front engined car can get more than 50% drive to the rear is if the front axle driveshafts are removed.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: carl1 on 10 October 2008, 19:04
Let me tell u now that the R32 is one of the best handling cars on the road along side subs and evos. TypeR's, ST's, GTI, VXR, u name it. The computer system setup to run the car as 4wd as required is amazin...

I am sorry, but that just aint true.  The R32 does understeer at low speeds, and no matter what you do with the throttle you can not dial out this.  At high speeds, the R32 is very "twitchy" on the limit.  The GTI is a much more neutral handling car.
So are you saying the gti is a better handling car than the r32 :huh:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 10 October 2008, 20:58
Let me tell u now that the R32 is one of the best handling cars on the road along side subs and evos. TypeR's, ST's, GTI, VXR, u name it. The computer system setup to run the car as 4wd as required is amazin...

I am sorry, but that just aint true.  The R32 does understeer at low speeds, and no matter what you do with the throttle you can not dial out this.  At high speeds, the R32 is very "twitchy" on the limit.  The GTI is a much more neutral handling car.
So are you saying the gti is a better handling car than the r32 :huh:

Yup, whenever I drive them back to back, the GTI is far better in the handling department.  This has also been repeatedly confirmed by various mags and TV progs.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: The Doc on 10 October 2008, 21:00
I'd love to try a superchanrged R32 with the improved haldex installed  :cool:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: davefish on 10 October 2008, 21:20
Wow T_T, I've never known someone spew so much bollux in all my life. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 10 October 2008, 21:39
Wow T_T, I've never known someone spew so much bollux in all my life. :rolleyes:

Well instead of insulting me, try and answer my sepcific concern!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: davefish on 10 October 2008, 22:51
Well instead of insulting me, try and answer my sepcific concern!  :rolleyes:

In one of the many shots fired from your fact gun, you aimed an insult bullet directly at me, claiming I believe in fairy tales… As an owner, who’s driven thirteen thousand miles in an R32 and had the Haldex controller fitted... I can confirm that if I put it in Race mode and perform a standing start, there is an unquestionable sensation of being pushed down the road rather than pulled. It sometimes feels like the fronts are doing nothing at all. I understand the car is not permanent 70/30 RWD bias but if you really think that it can’t shift more than 50% to the rear wheels then you sir, have never driven a MkV R32 in Race mode. I would take my own experiences and manufacturer info over a bloke on a public forum, no offence.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 10 October 2008, 23:31
Well instead of insulting me, try and answer my sepcific concern!  :rolleyes:

In one of the many shots fired from your fact gun, you aimed an insult bullet directly at me, claiming I believe in fairy tales…

Please quote me correctly.  I merely ASKED who had provided such info, to your very specific claim of 70% going to the rear.

And if you did feel that I made a "personal attack", then I apologise, as it wasn't meant to be "personal" at all.  :smiley:

As an owner, who’s driven thirteen thousand miles in an R32 and had the Haldex controller fitted...

And I am speaking as a highly qualifed Automobile Engineering Technician, who fully understands the detailed operation of transmissions, and particularly four wheel drive transmissions, and has spent many, many years working on such systems.

And I add to that my own personal experiences of driving various Haldex cars - albeit with just the "standard" Haldex software in the controller.  :rolleyes:

I can confirm that if I put it in Race mode and perform a standing start, there is an unquestionable sensation of being pushed down the road rather than pulled. It sometimes feels like the fronts are doing nothing at all.

I don't question that at all, and I fully understand and agree with you.  And it is simply down to weght transfer during acceleration which creates such an effect.

I understand the car is not permanent 70/30 RWD bias but if you really think that it can’t shift more than 50% to the rear wheels then you sir, have never driven a MkV R32 in Race mode.

But I am sorry, I have to disagree with you.  Please tell me how the Haldex unit is able to disengage the drive to the front axle?  It can NOT do so, because the front axle is permanently driven, irrespective of what the Haldex is doing.  The Haldex is simply a clutch, and not a differential, and so it can NOT dynamically apportion torque from one axle to another.  At best, irrespective of weather the Haldex is standard or "race", the Haldex unit simply locks its clutch at a clamping force of 100% - and this simply locks the rear axle to the front - meaning an exact 50:50 bias.

With your "Race" mode, what is actually happening, is that the Haldex is locking its clutch before you move off, thereby giving and exact 50:50 bias, but, because of the weight transfer effectively being pushed to the rear of the car during acceleration, it then "feels" like the fronts are doing very little, and the rears feel as though they are doing the major share of the traction.  The actual apportioning of drive though can be no more than 50% to the rear axle.

I would take my own experiences and manufacturer info over a bloke on a public forum, no offence.

Firstly, no one is doubting your "experiences".  However, what you "feel" through the seat of your pants is not the same as the fundamental priciples of Automobile Engineering.  :smiley:

Furthermore, Haldex Traction have repeatedly been found to "fudge" their figures, and squew their claims.  Haldex make incorrect claims by ignoring the "industry standard" of describing vehicle dynamics.  Google "Vehicle Dynamics International", blag yourself some free tickets, and then speak to some of THE most eminent professionals of the motor industry - and not one will back up Haldex Tractions' methods of describing the distribution of drive in their four wheel drive systems (or the way Haldex "discredit" 4wd systems with an ATB centre differential).

Kind regards.  :smiley:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: illyun on 11 October 2008, 00:30
Well instead of insulting me, try and answer my sepcific concern!  :rolleyes:

In one of the many shots fired from your fact gun, you aimed an insult bullet directly at me, claiming I believe in fairy tales…

Please quote me correctly.  I merely ASKED who had provided such info, to your very specific claim of 70% going to the rear.

And if you did feel that I made a "personal attack", then I apologise, as it wasn't meant to be "personal" at all.  :smiley:

As an owner, who’s driven thirteen thousand miles in an R32 and had the Haldex controller fitted...

And I am speaking as a highly qualifed Automobile Engineering Technician, who fully understands the detailed operation of transmissions, and particularly four wheel drive transmissions, and has spent many, many years working on such systems.

And I add to that my own personal experiences of driving various Haldex cars - albeit with just the "standard" Haldex software in the controller.  :rolleyes:

I can confirm that if I put it in Race mode and perform a standing start, there is an unquestionable sensation of being pushed down the road rather than pulled. It sometimes feels like the fronts are doing nothing at all.

I don't question that at all, and I fully understand and agree with you.  And it is simply down to weght transfer during acceleration which creates such an effect.

I understand the car is not permanent 70/30 RWD bias but if you really think that it can’t shift more than 50% to the rear wheels then you sir, have never driven a MkV R32 in Race mode.

But I am sorry, I have to disagree with you.  Please tell me how the Haldex unit is able to disengage the drive to the front axle?  It can NOT do so, because the front axle is permanently driven, irrespective of what the Haldex is doing.  The Haldex is simply a clutch, and not a differential, and so it can NOT dynamically apportion torque from one axle to another.  At best, irrespective of weather the Haldex is standard or "race", the Haldex unit simply locks its clutch at a clamping force of 100% - and this simply locks the rear axle to the front - meaning an exact 50:50 bias.

With your "Race" mode, what is actually happening, is that the Haldex is locking its clutch before you move off, thereby giving and exact 50:50 bias, but, because of the weight transfer effectively being pushed to the rear of the car during acceleration, it then "feels" like the fronts are doing very little, and the rears feel as though they are doing the major share of the traction.  The actual apportioning of drive though can be no more than 50% to the rear axle.

I would take my own experiences and manufacturer info over a bloke on a public forum, no offence.

Firstly, no one is doubting your "experiences".  However, what you "feel" through the seat of your pants is not the same as the fundamental priciples of Automobile Engineering.  :smiley:

Furthermore, Haldex Traction have repeatedly been found to "fudge" their figures, and squew their claims.  Haldex make incorrect claims by ignoring the "industry standard" of describing vehicle dynamics.  Google "Vehicle Dynamics International", blag yourself some free tickets, and then speak to some of THE most eminent professionals of the motor industry - and not one will back up Haldex Tractions' methods of describing the distribution of drive in their four wheel drive systems (or the way Haldex "discredit" 4wd systems with an ATB centre differential).

Kind regards.  :smiley:

Phew...  :shocked: I feel dizzy after reading all that TT.  All I know is that I miss the R32 I had and really want another.. its just this bl00dy credit crunch thats making my job feel very unsecure at present that is stopping me.. Otherwise, I'd be a greedy bas78rd and have two Mk5's parked on my drive - Ed30 and R32.  :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: ukdub on 11 October 2008, 01:07
Totally off topic, but I have read today the the new R32 replacement is to be called the R42.  Guess it stands for 4wd(not really) and 2 litre engine.  Will miss the VR6 unit though, its a shame the tree huggers have got their way and killed off a great engine.  When will people realise that the car isn't a problem in the so called globle warming panic.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Saint Steve on 11 October 2008, 07:23
Tis nice to see petrol prices heading south again  :smiley:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: carl1 on 11 October 2008, 08:16
Let me tell u now that the R32 is one of the best handling cars on the road along side subs and evos. TypeR's, ST's, GTI, VXR, u name it. The computer system setup to run the car as 4wd as required is amazin...

I am sorry, but that just aint true.  The R32 does understeer at low speeds, and no matter what you do with the throttle you can not dial out this.  At high speeds, the R32 is very "twitchy" on the limit.  The GTI is a much more neutral handling car.
So are you saying the gti is a better handling car than the r32 :huh:

Yup, whenever I drive them back to back, the GTI is far better in the handling department.  This has also been repeatedly confirmed by various mags and TV progs.
I beg to differ,the gti may be more lighter and nimble but that does not mean it  handles better .(down to personal taste)so why would a multi million pound company use haldex.Why didn't they make it 2wd like the eos 3.2 . Maybe these German engineers don't no that much about cars
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: The Doc on 11 October 2008, 08:58
illyun - hello  :wink:

R42 - 4.2 litre V8 would be nice lol

I've heard its a 2.5 5cyl turbo with 350 bhp?

My 2p on the GTI V's GTI handling.

GTI - great in the dry but when the going gets tough ie very twisty and bumpy I always found a front wheel lifting and causing me to loose grip therefore speed.

R32 - great in the wet good when it gets tough, but when it gets really tough you can feel that engine weight and it wants to drag you into a field, sideways while you scream.

This is a bit like hi-fi - its all in the eye of the beholder - the GTI is more balanced but I think the R32 handles better - please bear in mind I tend to drive cars like their stolen.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: R32UK on 11 October 2008, 10:27
Have to join the party here and say T_T... I think you are wrong when you say the Gti is a better handling car than the R32. More fun?? That I could agree with.. but better handling???

Think these magazines and reviews you are refering to are simply stating that the Gti is a better value package... trust me I have seen every review of the Gti and R32 going and not one states that the Gti is a better handling car! I have seen Plato and Tiff say that the R32 is a brilliant handling car and does everything right. JC also raves on about it. The Stig loved it..

but now T_T says its not as good as the GTi???? Im going to go with the experts on this one T_T!! And more importantly... my own experience :grin:

2WD better than 4WD??? I cannot see how a car powered by 2wheels rather than 4wheels is going to be better handling. We know you have this hang up about the haldex.. but seriously we are not comparing to Audi here.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: ukdub on 11 October 2008, 10:35
4wd is not going to make a car handle better.  4wd is for better traction that is all. 
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: carl1 on 11 October 2008, 10:40
traction  contributes to handling
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: WhiteGTI on 11 October 2008, 10:48
Handling is a pretty vague term - to one person it could mean one thing, but to another it could mean something completely different.

I think to the ordinary person good handling is thought of in terms of ultimate grip

But obviously, this view does not take into account the many other facets that contribute to handling, such as steering feel / turn in capability / chassis balance etc etc etc
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: ukdub on 11 October 2008, 10:51
Traction and handling are total seperate.  You can not go a round a corner faster just because you have 4wd. 4wd will not make your tyres stick on the road more as you go around a bend.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: R32UK on 11 October 2008, 11:04
You can not go a round a corner faster just because you have 4wd...

I see what your saying.. but 4WD can ensure that power is sent to where its required/not wasted to make the car go round the corner faster. So you are infact WRONG.. try taking 2 cars with even power and weight round the same corner. I would put my money on the 4WD thanks!
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: JonnyG on 11 October 2008, 11:15
There seems to be some pretty good Personal Contract Hire deals on R32's at the mo :

http://www.vwbestbuys.co.uk/top-five-special-offers.html

I realise you have to add the dreaded VAT onto the prices quoted for personal contracts, but I beileve the annual DVLA tax is paid for, for the whole contract period ?

Does anyone finance and run their car with PCH ? 

What are the disadvantages ?
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: R32UK on 11 October 2008, 11:42
There seems to be some pretty good Personal Contract Hire deals on R32's at the mo :

http://www.vwbestbuys.co.uk/top-five-special-offers.html

I realise you have to add the dreaded VAT onto the prices quoted for personal contracts, but I beileve the annual DVLA tax is paid for, for the whole contract period ?

Does anyone finance and run their car with PCH ? 

What are the disadvantages ?

Mine was a price match of VWBestbuys. That deal has been around for over a year now. My tax is paid for and its pretty much hassel free motoring for 2yrs. I just give it back at the end of the period.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: carl1 on 11 October 2008, 12:46
Handling is a pretty vague term - to one person it could mean one thing, but to another it could mean something completely different.

I think to the ordinary person good handling is thought of in terms of ultimate grip

But obviously, this view does not take into account the many other facets that contribute to handling, such as steering feel / turn in capability / chassis balance etc etc etc
that is why i said contributes,which it does not in all circumstances of handling but some it does
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: WhiteGTI on 11 October 2008, 12:51
Handling is a pretty vague term - to one person it could mean one thing, but to another it could mean something completely different.

I think to the ordinary person good handling is thought of in terms of ultimate grip

But obviously, this view does not take into account the many other facets that contribute to handling, such as steering feel / turn in capability / chassis balance etc etc etc
that is why i said contributes,which it does not in all circumstances of handling but some it does

Yep i agree! My post wasn't aimed at you, just at the topic in general  :smiley:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Saint Steve on 11 October 2008, 13:35
What is they say about an R32 and a Rs4 " its light having a dead Horse nailed to the grill, not good on a Performance car". too much weight

too far foward.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: R32UK on 11 October 2008, 13:49
I wouldnt say its that heavy.. its just heavier than the 2.0. The AWD keeps it in check and thats that. You only understeer if you dont know how to drive :wink:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: carl1 on 11 October 2008, 14:24
^^^ agreed on the knowing how to drive/reading the situation.Im quite sure not 100% that the r32 is more near the 50/50 weight disribution than the gti
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: ukdub on 11 October 2008, 21:24
You can not go a round a corner faster just because you have 4wd...

I see what your saying.. but 4WD can ensure that power is sent to where its required/not wasted to make the car go round the corner faster. So you are infact WRONG.. try taking 2 cars with even power and weight round the same corner. I would put my money on the 4WD thanks!

It is thinking that way that have made many a subaru impreza driver crash into a hedge.  You can not change the grip of a tyre just because it is on a 4wd car.  If it is wet, the 4wd car would be able to power out of a corner earlier than a 2wd car.  It would not be able to go into or around the corner faster.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: bobotheclown on 11 October 2008, 21:59
same thing applies to 4x4 SUV drivers and snow. If it's snowing you're going to skid off the road just like everyone else. Snow tyres might help a little but you still have to drive extremely carefully.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: gazbutmk5gti on 11 October 2008, 22:10
You can not go a round a corner faster just because you have 4wd...

I see what your saying.. but 4WD can ensure that power is sent to where its required/not wasted to make the car go round the corner faster. So you are infact WRONG.. try taking 2 cars with even power and weight round the same corner. I would put my money on the 4WD thanks!

It is thinking that way that have made many a subaru impreza driver crash into a hedge.  You can not change the grip of a tyre just because it is on a 4wd car.  If it is wet, the 4wd car would be able to power out of a corner earlier than a 2wd car.  It would not be able to go into or around the corner faster.

we need more pictures of your car ukdub
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: illyun on 11 October 2008, 22:19
illyun - hello  :wink:

Hi Doc.. nice to see you back.. only a guest appearance?  Nice set of vehicles you have there... that 535 must really go like stink  and I have heard that with a little remap, the torque goes through the roof :evil: :evil: :evil:
My Auto plans were blown apart last week by all this market crash madness but I was planning to put a deposit on a Nissan GT-R and seel my wife's Lupo GTI and get a Mk5 R32  :drool:.. still I might just do that within a month or so when everything settles and I find out if I am still in work or not.   :huh: :undecided:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: ukdub on 12 October 2008, 00:38
You can not go a round a corner faster just because you have 4wd...

I see what your saying.. but 4WD can ensure that power is sent to where its required/not wasted to make the car go round the corner faster. So you are infact WRONG.. try taking 2 cars with even power and weight round the same corner. I would put my money on the 4WD thanks!

It is thinking that way that have made many a subaru impreza driver crash into a hedge.  You can not change the grip of a tyre just because it is on a 4wd car.  If it is wet, the 4wd car would be able to power out of a corner earlier than a 2wd car.  It would not be able to go into or around the corner faster.

we need more pictures of your car ukdub

Hi Gary.  New car is looking good.  Any major plans on the S3 like the ED30 and GTI.
Got a few more pictures some where.  Not that special apart from the colour.  It is more a work in progress.  Have a few ideas that I will share when I post pictures.  Hope to get some good feed back about my thoughts. 
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: The Doc on 12 October 2008, 07:59
Hi Ill,

Got a little time on my hands at the mo so I'll try and make a point of calling in more.

535d destroys tyres in a good way - had it since Decmber and still in car love - good for me as you know :wink:

Got a MK5 R32 here that of of my engineers uses - '56 plate in blue 3 door leather sat nav 6 cd done 18k how much are they worth these days?
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Saint Steve on 12 October 2008, 08:10
About 17K  :sad:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: illyun on 12 October 2008, 10:11
Hi Ill,


Got a MK5 R32 here that of of my engineers uses - '56 plate in blue 3 door leather sat nav 6 cd done 18k how much are they worth these days?

2006 VOLKSWAGEN GOLF 3.2 V6 R32 4MOTION 3dr Hatchback 15,000 miles, Blue, 3 Door Hatchback, Blue, Petrol, Manual, 3x3 point rear seat belts, ABS, Air conditioning, Alarm, Alloy wheels, Body coloured bumpers. £15,750 ono.
looks like it has leather from the photos too -
http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/VOLKSWAGEN+GOLF/Ne-2-4-5-6-7-8-27-44-49-53-61-64-67-103-133-146-236,N-39-143-240-4294967077-4294967245/advert.action?R=200840320334071&distance=114&postcode=ip5+2bs&channel=CARS&make=VOLKSWAGEN&model=GOLF&min_pr=&max_pr=&max_mileage=20000 (http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/VOLKSWAGEN+GOLF/Ne-2-4-5-6-7-8-27-44-49-53-61-64-67-103-133-146-236,N-39-143-240-4294967077-4294967245/advert.action?R=200840320334071&distance=114&postcode=ip5+2bs&channel=CARS&make=VOLKSWAGEN&model=GOLF&min_pr=&max_pr=&max_mileage=20000)

I've seen them as low as £13k over the past few weeks...  :shocked:

Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: The Doc on 12 October 2008, 11:18
thats ok, thought as much so £15500 is about right.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Saint Steve on 12 October 2008, 13:57
sorry i thought that was Dealer price you were looking, private sale would be cheaper around the 15k like Illyan says.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: R32UK on 12 October 2008, 14:09
You can not go a round a corner faster just because you have 4wd...

I see what your saying.. but 4WD can ensure that power is sent to where its required/not wasted to make the car go round the corner faster. So you are infact WRONG.. try taking 2 cars with even power and weight round the same corner. I would put my money on the 4WD thanks!

It is thinking that way that have made many a subaru impreza driver crash into a hedge.  You can not change the grip of a tyre just because it is on a 4wd car.  If it is wet, the 4wd car would be able to power out of a corner earlier than a 2wd car.  It would not be able to go into or around the corner faster.

I never said it would be quicker into a corner. But it will be quicker around it.. as like you said, you can put the power down earlier. :smug:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: davefish on 12 October 2008, 18:58
For the attention of Teutonic_Tamer.

Please note that Staffan has been employed by Haldex Traction in Landskrona since August 97. He works as a control software developer on the Haldex Limited Slip Coupling. This is an intelligent coupling for distributing the torque between axles in an all wheel driven vehicle.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Staffan,

I'm trying to settle a debate about the Haldex Gen II Controller fitted to my Golf MkV R32. As a person with extensive knowledge of these systems, would you mind answering the following question?

Can the Gen II Controller transfer more than 50% to the rear wheels in a front engined car?

Person A believes it can send over 50% of the engine's torque to the rear.
Person B believes the only time a Haldex front engined car can get more than 50% drive to the rear is if the front axle drive shafts are removed as the rear differential's drive shaft is driven by the front differential.

Who is correct?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave,

The question about torque ratio is a common one. I will try to answer it as well as I can.

Lets begin by examining a common cause of confusion: If the front and rear axles were to be locked together completely, what would the torque ratio be? Well, many car magazines would write 50/50 in such as situation, which is completely wrong. The only thing that one can be sure of in such a situation is that the front and rear axles rotate with exactly the same speed. The torque ratio will then depend on things like turning radius, vehicle speed, tyre rolling radius, vehicle weight distribution and of course the surface of the road.

If the car turns and the speed is low (approx < 40 kph) the front wheels will want to move in a circle that is outside the rear wheels. That means that they will want to rotate faster, which means that additional torque will be transferred to the rear wheels until the drive slip of the tyres compensate for the difference in circle diameter. If the axles are locked, the front wheels will actually brake and the rear wheels will drive the car.

Similar things happen if the rolling radius of the tyres front and rear differ. That can be due to using different dimensions (should be avoided!), different brands, differently worn tyres etc, but also because of different loading of the vehicle (different weight distribution). A smaller tyre rolling radius on the front than the rear will cause more torque to be transferred to the rear.

If the ground surface differs between the axles, the torque ratio will of course also be affected. If the front wheels are on ice and the rear ones are on tarmac, the torque split will be almost 100% to the rear. The corresponding is true the other way around.

So much for a car where the front and rear axles are completely locked together. But why did I spend so much text explaining that? Because the Haldex coupling Gen II is capable of distributing the torque between complete front wheel drive and (almost) a complete lock between the axles. That means that the Haldex Gen II can transfer more than 50% to the rear if the surface differs front/rear, if the car turns slowly, if the car turns very hard while running at speed (that will tend to lift the inner front wheel -> more torque can be transfered to the rear), if hard acceleration causes a change of the weight distribution backwards etc... It can however not do so in any arbitrary situation.

Note that everything above describes what is possible to transfer, not what is actually transferred! The latter depends on the control algorithms used which try to continuously optimize the car behaviour while you are driving. When you are accelerating hard, as much torque as possible will be transferred to the rear in order to optimize traction. When cruising the highway much less torque is transferred in order to optimize things like fuel consumption. When taking a corner the torque transfer will depend on a number of things that are all aimed at making the car handle as well as possible. The target behaviour is defined by the car manufacturer and may differ somewhat between different manufacturers.

I hope this helps and that I didn't confuse you to much!

Please note that this answer is given as a private person.

Best Regards
Staffan


Well instead of insulting me, try and answer my sepcific concern!  :rolleyes:

In one of the many shots fired from your fact gun, you aimed an insult bullet directly at me, claiming I believe in fairy tales…

Please quote me correctly.  I merely ASKED who had provided such info, to your very specific claim of 70% going to the rear.

And if you did feel that I made a "personal attack", then I apologise, as it wasn't meant to be "personal" at all.  :smiley:

As an owner, who’s driven thirteen thousand miles in an R32 and had the Haldex controller fitted...

And I am speaking as a highly qualifed Automobile Engineering Technician, who fully understands the detailed operation of transmissions, and particularly four wheel drive transmissions, and has spent many, many years working on such systems.

And I add to that my own personal experiences of driving various Haldex cars - albeit with just the "standard" Haldex software in the controller.  :rolleyes:

I can confirm that if I put it in Race mode and perform a standing start, there is an unquestionable sensation of being pushed down the road rather than pulled. It sometimes feels like the fronts are doing nothing at all.

I don't question that at all, and I fully understand and agree with you.  And it is simply down to weght transfer during acceleration which creates such an effect.

I understand the car is not permanent 70/30 RWD bias but if you really think that it can’t shift more than 50% to the rear wheels then you sir, have never driven a MkV R32 in Race mode.

But I am sorry, I have to disagree with you.  Please tell me how the Haldex unit is able to disengage the drive to the front axle?  It can NOT do so, because the front axle is permanently driven, irrespective of what the Haldex is doing.  The Haldex is simply a clutch, and not a differential, and so it can NOT dynamically apportion torque from one axle to another.  At best, irrespective of weather the Haldex is standard or "race", the Haldex unit simply locks its clutch at a clamping force of 100% - and this simply locks the rear axle to the front - meaning an exact 50:50 bias.

With your "Race" mode, what is actually happening, is that the Haldex is locking its clutch before you move off, thereby giving and exact 50:50 bias, but, because of the weight transfer effectively being pushed to the rear of the car during acceleration, it then "feels" like the fronts are doing very little, and the rears feel as though they are doing the major share of the traction.  The actual apportioning of drive though can be no more than 50% to the rear axle.

I would take my own experiences and manufacturer info over a bloke on a public forum, no offence.

Firstly, no one is doubting your "experiences".  However, what you "feel" through the seat of your pants is not the same as the fundamental priciples of Automobile Engineering.  :smiley:

Furthermore, Haldex Traction have repeatedly been found to "fudge" their figures, and squew their claims.  Haldex make incorrect claims by ignoring the "industry standard" of describing vehicle dynamics.  Google "Vehicle Dynamics International", blag yourself some free tickets, and then speak to some of THE most eminent professionals of the motor industry - and not one will back up Haldex Tractions' methods of describing the distribution of drive in their four wheel drive systems (or the way Haldex "discredit" 4wd systems with an ATB centre differential).

Kind regards.  :smiley:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: WhiteGTI on 12 October 2008, 19:05
I look forward to seeing the outcome of this argument!!!!!!  :smiley:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Saint Steve on 12 October 2008, 19:31
anyone got some PopCorn  :wink:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: R32UK on 12 October 2008, 20:28
I can just see T_T at his desk disecting every sentence of that response :grin: :nerd:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Jimp on 12 October 2008, 20:33
Brace for impact  :laugh:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Hurdy on 12 October 2008, 22:22
Incomiiiiinnnnnngggggg!! :rolleyes:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: gazbutmk5gti on 12 October 2008, 23:14
I was going to bed, might wait a bit :smiley:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: ukdub on 12 October 2008, 23:31
You can not go a round a corner faster just because you have 4wd...

I see what your saying.. but 4WD can ensure that power is sent to where its required/not wasted to make the car go round the corner faster. So you are infact WRONG.. try taking 2 cars with even power and weight round the same corner. I would put my money on the 4WD thanks!

It is thinking that way that have made many a subaru impreza driver crash into a hedge.  You can not change the grip of a tyre just because it is on a 4wd car.  If it is wet, the 4wd car would be able to power out of a corner earlier than a 2wd car.  It would not be able to go into or around the corner faster.

I never said it would be quicker into a corner. But it will be quicker around it.. as like you said, you can put the power down earlier. :smug:

How can it go round a corner faster?  Are the tyres more sticky on a 4wd car?  I wasn't trying to be smug or pretend to know all about 4wd or the Haldex unit. Just because the engine is driving all wheels it doesn't make the tyres GRIP the road anymore than on a 2wd car.  Like you and I said, a 4wd car can power out of a corner faster that is down to traction not GRIP.  That in its self doesn't make it a faster or better handling car.  Over to you dude. :smiley:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: R32UK on 13 October 2008, 08:21
You can not go a round a corner faster just because you have 4wd...

I see what your saying.. but 4WD can ensure that power is sent to where its required/not wasted to make the car go round the corner faster. So you are infact WRONG.. try taking 2 cars with even power and weight round the same corner. I would put my money on the 4WD thanks!

It is thinking that way that have made many a subaru impreza driver crash into a hedge.  You can not change the grip of a tyre just because it is on a 4wd car.  If it is wet, the 4wd car would be able to power out of a corner earlier than a 2wd car.  It would not be able to go into or around the corner faster.

I never said it would be quicker into a corner. But it will be quicker around it.. as like you said, you can put the power down earlier. :smug:

How can it go round a corner faster?  Are the tyres more sticky on a 4wd car?  I wasn't trying to be smug or pretend to know all about 4wd or the Haldex unit. Just because the engine is driving all wheels it doesn't make the tyres GRIP the road anymore than on a 2wd car.  Like you and I said, a 4wd car can power out of a corner faster that is down to traction not GRIP.  That in its self doesn't make it a faster or better handling car.  Over to you dude. :smiley:

Without going over old ground I think we both agree without going into detail that there are a few characteristics to handling, so to say a certain car is better handling than another could be broken down into a number of issues.

As for the issue of the 4wd car being able to go round a corner quicker.. try thinking of it like this:

The cars are not going to go around the corner as dead weight. If you apply power to the fronts they will at the limit start to understeer. When this same limit is approached in the 4wd car, its ability to introduce power through the rear will allow for better balance of power delivery, leaving the fronts to do what they do best.. which is steer. So what you could say is that by utilizing the traction available to the rear of the car you are infact able to go round the corner faster. The 2wd car is always going to be limited to only travelling as fast the fronts can get their power down onto the road, where as the 4WD car can counter this loss of grip (understeer) by the front wheels by providing drive through the rear wheels. Bringing the car back into line, and allowing the driver to drive the car round the corner... its the 4wd cars ability to do this that makes it faster round the corner.

Hope that makes sense, as you can see Im not the most technical person to talk about this but this is my understanding. I do appreciate that you are trying to highlight the point about grip and traction. Feel free to correct me. :smiley:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: carl1 on 13 October 2008, 12:00
^^^^^Just to add to this im no expert myself but when was it last a 2wd drive  won a WRC championship title or what ever it was called in its day.Proberly a mk 2 escort or somthing like that and that was rwd.It must say something about all top rally cars having 4wd
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: evad on 13 October 2008, 13:53
For those interested, heres some logging that an engineer in the states did:

from vwvortex

What I can tell you is that even with the factory controller, the Haldex diff is VERY active. Even under light acceleration there is varying amounts of clutch lockup.

Idle/Revving in Neutral -
2 bar seemed to be the constant pressure in the system

Steady Cruise -
Even with constant speed cruising, the clutchpack is being engaged to a point. Let off the throttle and the line pressure drops down to 3-4 bar. Get back on the gas and there's a momentary spike to about 9 bar in line pressure and then it steadied at about 6-7 bar with a constant throttle application.

Full Throttle, 3rd Gear -
Even though wheelspin is impossible in the dry in 3rd gear, as soon as I mashed the pedal the pressure on the clutchpack increased from what it was at a steady cruise (6-7 bar) to about 20 bar and then slowly dropped to a low of 10-12 bar. This is still considerably more pressure (about double) on the clutchpack then when travelling at a steady cruise.

Launch Control -
This was interesting. Left foot on brake, right foot full throttle and there's no more pressure than when revving in neutral (i.e. 2 bar). Literally the moment that I side-stepped the brake pedal, line pressure jumped to 40 bar (which is noted as the maximum operating pressure according to VAG-COM) and stayed there all the way through 1st gear. I'm talking the line on the graph went completely vertical which means that literally in the blink of an eye, the clutchpack was fully locked transferring 50% of available torque to the rear axle. Once 2nd gear was engaged line pressure fell to about 20 bar, which is consistent with what I saw during the 3rd gear pull.

General Observations -
Like I said before, the Haldex clutchpack is very active during driving and definitely isn't only reacting to wheelspin. Increase pressure on the gas pedal and the Haldex controller increases pressure on the clutchpacks accordingly. I also noted that while taking turns at a good clip that line pressure increases compared to steady state cruise. The more throttle you give it, the higher the pressure on the clutchpacks.

Conclusion -
Clutch lockup in the Haldex diff is not dependent on wheelspin. The Haldex diff is very active in transferring torque to the rear axle under various driving conditions. While moving, there is always torque being transmitted to the rear axle and the drivetrain never runs in only FWD mode.


I will try to find the original thread on Vortex.

Just to add, I have owned both a GTI and and R32, I live in the West of Ireland where the roads are rubbish and the weather is worse, straight up, I did not enjoy driving the GTI in poor weather and on the roads over here and hence changed it after only 6 months for an R32 which was a revelation, definitely a heavier car and not hugely fast, but on a wet day driving through Connemara I'd have the R32 9 times out of 10, it was a wonderful thing, such a pity I killed it :cry:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: topher on 13 October 2008, 13:57
I remember reading that thread, be warned though TT dismisses anything written by Americans :grin:
He's just stuck in his torsen-minded good old days from the era of crank handle starters..

hmm lets see if i can find that email from the american racing instructor who prefers haldex controlled awd to rusty torsen diffs :laugh:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Top Cat on 13 October 2008, 15:07
Guys its time to leave these shores this thread is gonna blow

Evacuate   Evacuate Evacuate   Evacuate Evacuate   [Evacuate Evacuate   Evacuate Evacuate   Evacuate

(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/tomashandmilly/fig1.gif)

(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/tomashandmilly/puuoo3.jpg)                                        :grin: :grin: :grin:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: SteveP on 13 October 2008, 17:32
^^^ ROLF and very very true  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: R32UK on 13 October 2008, 18:02
Where is the T_T??? :huh:

probably gone out to test drive another R32 i owuld imagine :nerd:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: illyun on 13 October 2008, 21:59
Where is the T_T??? :huh:

probably gone out to test drive another R32 i owuld imagine :nerd:


Probably doing a s81t load of research and simmering - as Top Cat says, he'ill be ready to explode when he joins this thread... in a nice constructive way of course  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: ukdub on 15 October 2008, 09:34
You can not go a round a corner faster just because you have 4wd...

I see what your saying.. but 4WD can ensure that power is sent to where its required/not wasted to make the car go round the corner faster. So you are infact WRONG.. try taking 2 cars with even power and weight round the same corner. I would put my money on the 4WD thanks!

It is thinking that way that have made many a subaru impreza driver crash into a hedge.  You can not change the grip of a tyre just because it is on a 4wd car.  If it is wet, the 4wd car would be able to power out of a corner earlier than a 2wd car.  It would not be able to go into or around the corner faster.

I never said it would be quicker into a corner. But it will be quicker around it.. as like you said, you can put the power down earlier. :smug:

How can it go round a corner faster?  Are the tyres more sticky on a 4wd car?  I wasn't trying to be smug or pretend to know all about 4wd or the Haldex unit. Just because the engine is driving all wheels it doesn't make the tyres GRIP the road anymore than on a 2wd car.  Like you and I said, a 4wd car can power out of a corner faster that is down to traction not GRIP.  That in its self doesn't make it a faster or better handling car.  Over to you dude. :smiley:

Without going over old ground I think we both agree without going into detail that there are a few characteristics to handling, so to say a certain car is better handling than another could be broken down into a number of issues.

As for the issue of the 4wd car being able to go round a corner quicker.. try thinking of it like this:

The cars are not going to go around the corner as dead weight. If you apply power to the fronts they will at the limit start to understeer. When this same limit is approached in the 4wd car, its ability to introduce power through the rear will allow for better balance of power delivery, leaving the fronts to do what they do best.. which is steer. So what you could say is that by utilizing the traction available to the rear of the car you are infact able to go round the corner faster. The 2wd car is always going to be limited to only travelling as fast the fronts can get their power down onto the road, where as the 4WD car can counter this loss of grip (understeer) by the front wheels by providing drive through the rear wheels. Bringing the car back into line, and allowing the driver to drive the car round the corner... its the 4wd cars ability to do this that makes it faster round the corner.

Hope that makes sense, as you can see Im not the most technical person to talk about this but this is my understanding. I do appreciate that you are trying to highlight the point about grip and traction. Feel free to correct me. :smiley:




Good write up. :smiley:
I have to agree on most points.  The thing is even though you are getting traction from all 4 wheels (which is a good thing) you can't change the phyiscal grip of the tyres.  Therefore you will get a nice 4 wheeled drift not traction.  I will get my coat instead of digging this hole.  Just hate admitting someone might just be right. Maybe!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: synnea on 15 October 2008, 13:19
Back on track.

How would your wife react?

I have to admit to my drug addition. I had to admit it to my wife today. I phoned my wife to tell her. I didnt have to go to a doc cus there was nothing he could do for me. I explained to my wife that I have been addicted since 2006. I am still suffering from the come down effects and cant take it any more. I miss my fix.  She asked me what the drug was...

....I told her it was a sound. A sound she says.......

Its called V6..........

R32 back with it's rightful owner. I cant wait  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: AlanD on 15 October 2008, 13:24
You think that sounds nice. I had a V10 M5 zoom past me while I was outside having a fag, I pretty much creamed my pants :embarassed:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: luca on 15 October 2008, 16:12
I get to listen to that v10 every morning :wink: :evil:.
My dad has one but i cant get insured on it yet :cry:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: WhiteGTI on 15 October 2008, 16:20
A great, great car! V10 music is sensational.

Ive driven them many times - used to work for BMW's UK Headquarters!
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: illyun on 15 October 2008, 18:57
Back on track.

How would your wife react?

I have to admit to my drug addition. I had to admit it to my wife today. I phoned my wife to tell her. I didnt have to go to a doc cus there was nothing he could do for me. I explained to my wife that I have been addicted since 2006. I am still suffering from the come down effects and cant take it any more. I miss my fix.  She asked me what the drug was...

....I told her it was a sound. A sound she says.......

Its called V6..........

R32 back with it's rightful owner. I cant wait  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


I know how you feel... I really miss the sound of my old R32  :cry:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: R32UK on 15 October 2008, 19:47
Back on track.

How would your wife react?

I have to admit to my drug addition. I had to admit it to my wife today. I phoned my wife to tell her. I didnt have to go to a doc cus there was nothing he could do for me. I explained to my wife that I have been addicted since 2006. I am still suffering from the come down effects and cant take it any more. I miss my fix.  She asked me what the drug was...

....I told her it was a sound. A sound she says.......

Its called V6..........

R32 back with it's rightful owner. I cant wait  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Thats great news Synnea!!! I dont have to tell you how much you will enjoy having her back :evil:

Just be sure to put your windows down and give her a good thrash like she deserves.... god damn i miss mine :cry: :cry:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Saint Steve on 15 October 2008, 19:50
Was ment to ask you R32uk, Hows the Ford going???
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: R32UK on 15 October 2008, 20:09
Was ment to ask you R32uk, Hows the Ford going???

Oh did I not mention they upgraded me...   :undecided:

http://www.cadillaceurope.com/index.aspx?Filterid=2093&Chapterid=7846


Trust me its no where near as glam as they make it look!!!
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: topher on 15 October 2008, 20:12
I've driven one of those.. it shouldn't have a steering wheel it should have one of these

(http://www.seasideselections.com/store/images/BC-24-87-970%20%20Ship%20Wheel%2024%20in.JPG)
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Saint Steve on 15 October 2008, 20:21
Does BLS stand for

Biggestloadash!te??
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: R32UK on 15 October 2008, 20:21
^ spot on there toph!!

And lucky me got the 1.9 diesel engine... wooopie doooo! havent even managed to get it into 5th yet!!! firstly because you need two hands.. secondly because I think I will run out of road by the time we get to that speed!!

Im sick of people asking me if I have changed my car. How old do they think I am to go change my .:R for a Caddie???

Nice smooth ride though :huh:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: illyun on 16 October 2008, 09:17
^ spot on there toph!!

And lucky me got the 1.9 diesel engine... wooopie doooo! havent even managed to get it into 5th yet!!! firstly because you need two hands.. secondly because I think I will run out of road by the time we get to that speed!!

Im sick of people asking me if I have changed my car. How old do they think I am to go change my .:R for a Caddie???

Nice smooth ride though :huh:

Whats up with the R32?
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: AlanD on 16 October 2008, 09:19
Whats up with the R32?

In the body shop for repairs :(
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: illyun on 16 October 2008, 15:24
Whats up with the R32?

In the body shop for repairs :(
What happenned - sorry but I haven't been around for a while - was he driving around like a hooligan again.  R32, you should realise that you can't do that unless you've got a Mk1 GTI  :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: AlanD on 16 October 2008, 15:28
Cant actually remember now. Im pretty sure that it was damage sustained whilst his car was in a car park. Im sure he will be back later to confirm.
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: SilverChariot on 16 October 2008, 21:50
C'mon T_T... who and where are ya? :rolleyes: :evil:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Jkctr on 30 January 2009, 22:25
Why did T_T never reply?

Did Dave win  :laugh:
Title: Re: What now for the R32.....
Post by: Schuey on 30 January 2009, 23:17
Interesting reading on peoples thoughts between the R32 & GTI.

I have owned a few MKV's a GTI, R32 & currently ED30.

Out of all of these cars the best one by far is the R32  :nerd:

The noise is unbeatable & turns so many heads, the power fantastic & the handling is the best of any VW.....................  :shocked:

The thing with the R32 is to use the 4WD/Haldex or whatever you wanna call it & the only way to get it working is to have the balls to keep your foot down in the corners & get the car balanced.................Plain & simple!

Switiching back to the ED30, the first thing I noticed on roundabouts etc..........UNDERSTEER  :angry: