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Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: Teutonic_Tamer on 06 October 2008, 12:08

Title: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 06 October 2008, 12:08
Just been mooching through the Ross-Tech Wiki,  :nerd: and noticed that the Teves Mk60 ESP/ABS requires specific adaptation settings, based on what size front brakes are fitted - http://wiki.ross-tech.com/index.php/VW_Golf_%281K%29_Brake_Electronics_%28MK60%29.  :wink:

So for those who have upgraded their front brakes, either with the OEM S3/R32/Cupra 345mm ones, or aftermarket big brakes such as AP/Alcon/Tarox - then you should really get your settings changed.  If you have gone down the OEM route, then maybe your official stealer may do it, but for any aftermarket kits, you will need to find someone with VAG-COM/VCDS.

RedRobin:  could this be a cause of your ESP issues?
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: joesgti on 06 October 2008, 12:32
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/index.php/VW_Golf_%281K%29_Brake_Electronics_%28MK60%29.  :wink:


a bit of early afternoon reading for mr TT  :nerd: :nerd:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: john_o on 06 October 2008, 13:05
now thats a nice meaty issue TT

From the codes is it adjustable or can you only pick from the options available (i.e. any OE setup available)?
Looks to be only a selection
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Egbutt Wash on 06 October 2008, 13:22
If you have upgraded from the 16" min wheel size standard brakes to the 17" min wheel size R32 ones you need to tell the cars software and set a hardware bridge.  Just altering the register via VAG-COM is not enough.
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 06 October 2008, 13:55
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/index.php/VW_Golf_%281K%29_Brake_Electronics_%28MK60%29.  :wink:


a bit of early afternoon reading for mr TT  :nerd: :nerd:

With compulsory sticky buns and earl grey!  :tongue:  :grin:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 06 October 2008, 13:58
now thats a nice meaty issue TT

From the codes is it adjustable or can you only pick from the options available (i.e. any OE setup available)?
Looks to be only a selection

You can make up your own values, but you REALLY need to know what you are doing with that stuff.  Enter some "wrong" info that the relevant controller is unable to recognise, and you can end up actually ruining the component.
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: luca on 06 October 2008, 14:02
Can my local revo dealer adjust these codes TT?
Put the leon cupra brakes on mine today :smiley:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 06 October 2008, 14:04
If you have upgraded from the 16" min wheel size standard brakes to the 17" min wheel size R32 ones you need to tell the cars software and set a hardware bridge.  Just altering the register via VAG-COM is not enough.

Huh - WTF are you on about.  :rolleyes:

For a start, you are using "yankie" terminology for measuring brakes,  :sick: which most Brits and Europeans simply ignore (because the yankie measurements are factually incorrect and confusing to even the most basically educated European who can use a ruler or tape measure  :rolleyes:).  And all the VCDS recode is doing is altering the in-built bias compensation parameters for the differing hardware which has subsequently been fitted!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 06 October 2008, 14:05
Can my local revo dealer adjust these codes TT?

If he has VAG-COM, then yes.

Put the leon cupra brakes on mine today :smiley:

Pictures . . . .  :wink:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: luca on 06 October 2008, 14:06
Will get some up in a few minutes :smiley:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: RedRobin on 06 October 2008, 14:57
Just been mooching through the Ross-Tech Wiki,  :nerd: and noticed that the Teves Mk60 ESP/ABS requires specific adaptation settings, based on what size front brakes are fitted - http://wiki.ross-tech.com/index.php/VW_Golf_%281K%29_Brake_Electronics_%28MK60%29.  :wink:

So for those who have upgraded their front brakes, either with the OEM S3/R32/Cupra 345mm ones, or aftermarket big brakes such as AP/Alcon/Tarox - then you should really get your settings changed.  If you have gone down the OEM route, then maybe your official stealer may do it, but for any aftermarket kits, you will need to find someone with VAG-COM/VCDS.

RedRobin:  could this be a cause of your ESP issues?

....Thanks for this, T_T :smiley:

However, I have run with my AP brake kit for well over 20k miles without any ESP issue and it wasn't until mixing F1 Assymetrics with F1 Directionals that the snatching issue occurred.

My ESP issue has now been resolved since VWR cleaned my Wheel Speed Sensors (their good idea) and installed my ATB diff.

Furthermore, all 4 Goodyear Assymetrics have now done a high enough mileage to settle in.

It's now working well and 'if it works, don't mend it' is something I learnt from my bike racing days (when I used to be fit and had bulging thigh muscles!).

Cheers :afro:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 06 October 2008, 15:05
Just been mooching through the Ross-Tech Wiki,  :nerd: and noticed that the Teves Mk60 ESP/ABS requires specific adaptation settings, based on what size front brakes are fitted - http://wiki.ross-tech.com/index.php/VW_Golf_%281K%29_Brake_Electronics_%28MK60%29.  :wink:

So for those who have upgraded their front brakes, either with the OEM S3/R32/Cupra 345mm ones, or aftermarket big brakes such as AP/Alcon/Tarox - then you should really get your settings changed.  If you have gone down the OEM route, then maybe your official stealer may do it, but for any aftermarket kits, you will need to find someone with VAG-COM/VCDS.

RedRobin:  could this be a cause of your ESP issues?

....Thanks for this, T_T :smiley:

However, I have run with my AP brake kit for well over 20k miles without any ESP issue and it wasn't until mixing F1 Assymetrics with F1 Directionals that the snatching issue occurred.

My ESP issue has now been resolved since VWR cleaned my Wheel Speed Sensors (their good idea) and installed my ATB diff.

Furthermore, all 4 Goodyear Assymetrics have now done a high enough mileage to settle in.

It's now working well and 'if it works, don't mend it' is something I learnt from my bike racing days (when I used to be fit and had bulging thigh muscles!).

Cheers :afro:

I would still get it changed.  It is not just for the ESP, but is also crucially for the correct front to rear brake bias.
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Egbutt Wash on 06 October 2008, 15:40
Don't forget to change the coding link.  It's not just a VAG-COM register setting you know.
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Egbutt Wash on 06 October 2008, 15:53
If you have upgraded from the 16" min wheel size standard brakes to the 17" min wheel size R32 ones you need to tell the cars software and set a hardware bridge.  Just altering the register via VAG-COM is not enough.

Huh - WTF are you on about.  :rolleyes:

For a start, you are using "yankie" terminology for measuring brakes,  :sick: which most Brits and Europeans simply ignore (because the yankie measurements are factually incorrect and confusing to even the most basically educated European who can use a ruler or tape measure  :rolleyes:).  And all the VCDS recode is doing is altering the in-built bias compensation parameters for the differing hardware which has subsequently been fitted!  :rolleyes:

Just because you didn't know about the hardware link don't have a fit.  After all you can't know everything, can you?
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: RedRobin on 06 October 2008, 16:25
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Swanage_Punch_&_Judy.JPG/670px-Swanage_Punch_&_Judy.JPG)

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Top Cat on 06 October 2008, 16:31
^^^^  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:  Sausages sausages. (http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/tomashandmilly/Daft%20stuff/10_9_2091.gif)
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: 182_blue on 06 October 2008, 16:33
where the handbag pics when you need them
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Saint Steve on 06 October 2008, 16:35
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Swanage_Punch_&_Judy.JPG/670px-Swanage_Punch_&_Judy.JPG)

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
^^^^  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:  Sausages sausages. (http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/tomashandmilly/Daft%20stuff/10_9_2091.gif)

Classic!!  :smiley:  :laugh:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: RedRobin on 06 October 2008, 17:00
where the handbag pics when you need them

(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/VWhandbags.jpg)

See! I DO have pics other than sexy laydees in my collection! :evil:

(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/Emma1.jpg)

Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 06 October 2008, 17:12
If you have upgraded from the 16" min wheel size standard brakes to the 17" min wheel size R32 ones you need to tell the cars software and set a hardware bridge.  Just altering the register via VAG-COM is not enough.

Huh - WTF are you on about.  :rolleyes:

For a start, you are using "yankie" terminology for measuring brakes,  :sick: which most Brits and Europeans simply ignore (because the yankie measurements are factually incorrect and confusing to even the most basically educated European who can use a ruler or tape measure  :rolleyes:).  And all the VCDS recode is doing is altering the in-built bias compensation parameters for the differing hardware which has subsequently been fitted!  :rolleyes:

Just because you didn't know about the hardware link don't have a fit. 

Well then bollock chops, care to back up this statement?  Have a link?  And would you like to inform Ross-Tech of your findings too!  :rolleyes:

After all you can't know everything, can you?

And when did I ever claim to know everything?  I didn't!

But for the record, braking technologies are one of my very strong areas of expertise, and whilst I may not have an endless pit of knowledge, I am usually fairly accurate when brakes are involved.  The simple fact is that the VAG-COM/VCDS is simply adressing the needs of the electronics which control the bias, specifically relating to differing specifications of hardware fitted.

If you can produce hard evidence to your comment, I will humbly apologise!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 06 October 2008, 17:12
^^^^  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:  Sausages sausages. (http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/tomashandmilly/Daft%20stuff/10_9_2091.gif)

Pancakes . . .   :cry:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 06 October 2008, 17:14
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/Emma1.jpg)

Any relation?  :drool:

And she is gaging for it up the ar......  :embarassed:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: RedRobin on 06 October 2008, 17:23
Any relation?  :drool:

And she is gagging for it up the ar......  :embarassed:

.... :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: - A gentleman doesn't tell :wink:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 06 October 2008, 21:10
Any relation?  :drool:

And she is gagging for it up the ar......  :embarassed:

.... :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: - A gentleman doesn't tell :wink:

Awww!  :cry:

I'll just have to have a quick knuckle shuffle!  :embarassed:  :evil:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: NewGolf on 07 October 2008, 18:44
Come on Egbert, we are all poised on the edge of our seats as you come back to T_T with some technical facts....  :smug:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 07 October 2008, 20:40
It's gone all quiet . . .  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Egbutt Wash on 07 October 2008, 21:23
Look what Sebastian at Ross-Tech has to say (the VAG-COM people)...

http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=3689264

Just what I said, you need to set a wire link/bridge.
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: DanGB on 08 October 2008, 11:28
What were the issues you were having Robn?

Like you, ive had my AP's for a long time, but havent noticed any 'issues'?

Just been mooching through the Ross-Tech Wiki,  :nerd: and noticed that the Teves Mk60 ESP/ABS requires specific adaptation settings, based on what size front brakes are fitted - http://wiki.ross-tech.com/index.php/VW_Golf_%281K%29_Brake_Electronics_%28MK60%29.  :wink:

So for those who have upgraded their front brakes, either with the OEM S3/R32/Cupra 345mm ones, or aftermarket big brakes such as AP/Alcon/Tarox - then you should really get your settings changed.  If you have gone down the OEM route, then maybe your official stealer may do it, but for any aftermarket kits, you will need to find someone with VAG-COM/VCDS.

RedRobin:  could this be a cause of your ESP issues?

....Thanks for this, T_T :smiley:

However, I have run with my AP brake kit for well over 20k miles without any ESP issue and it wasn't until mixing F1 Assymetrics with F1 Directionals that the snatching issue occurred.

My ESP issue has now been resolved since VWR cleaned my Wheel Speed Sensors (their good idea) and installed my ATB diff.

Furthermore, all 4 Goodyear Assymetrics have now done a high enough mileage to settle in.

It's now working well and 'if it works, don't mend it' is something I learnt from my bike racing days (when I used to be fit and had bulging thigh muscles!).

Cheers :afro:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Egbutt Wash on 08 October 2008, 13:19
It's gone all quiet . . .  :rolleyes:

Funny that.
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: 182_blue on 08 October 2008, 13:35
Explain it Nosher, dont just copy and past stuff you have googled
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 08 October 2008, 14:00
Look what Sebastian at Ross-Tech has to say (the VAG-COM people)...

http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=3689264

Just what I said, you need to set a wire link/bridge.

Thanks for that, but up in reply #13, you clearly stated a "hardware link" - which was a major confusion (well it was to me!).  However, if you had made it a little more clear that it was a "wiring" issue, then we might have understood (wiring is generally never referred to as "hardware").

And this issue of the re-wire isn't actually affect by all users.  I would stick my kneck out and say it was a yank-only problem anyway, as they don't get the R32 (and won't have PRs 1LK or 1LM), and so would be fitted with the older firmware units.  For the UK and EU, then no doubt from when the Mk5 R32 was released, then the firmware would be standardised across the whole Mk5 range - else why do they quote the data for the weedy poverty spec brakes too?  I could still be wrong though?  :undecided:

So where are these bridge pins actually located then?
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 08 October 2008, 14:04
What were the issues you were having Robn?

Like you, ive had my AP's for a long time, but havent noticed any 'issues'?

Red was having "snatching" issues, with unexpected ESP operation.  I think it was actually because of his Goodyear tyres, but being as he's upgraded his anchors too, I just thought I'd pose the question as another idea to explore.  :smiley:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: topher on 08 October 2008, 14:10
The yanks do get the R, although in 3 door DSG only, and no option for BMP or recaros.
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: 08micsta on 08 October 2008, 16:10
And they only got 4000 of them  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Quote
and no option for BMP

**Edit** Toph is correct. The colour I was referring to was DBP I think... Its a deep blue pearl.

Mike
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: topher on 08 October 2008, 16:15
nooooo, black metallic pearl.. you're thinking DBP. They do get candy white though. They all hate me on vortex with my 5 door, manual, black car :grin:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: 08micsta on 08 October 2008, 16:16
It must give you so much pleasure taunting them. The .:R owners on Vortex are not the nicest I have ever seen  :shocked:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 08 October 2008, 16:27
The yanks do get the R, although in 3 door DSG only, and no option for BMP or recaros.

Oh, OK.  So they just get them in *.jpg format then?  :tongue:  :grin:  (WTF is "BMP"?  :huh:)

That sort of fcuks my last post then!  :embarassed:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: 08micsta on 08 October 2008, 16:29
^^^

Love it.  :grin:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: RedRobin on 10 October 2008, 18:52
What were the issues you were having Robn?

Like you, ive had my AP's for a long time, but havent noticed any 'issues'?

Red was having "snatching" issues, with unexpected ESP operation.  I think it was actually because of his Goodyear tyres, but being as he's upgraded his anchors too, I just thought I'd pose the question as another idea to explore.  :smiley:

....Dan - No issues with my AP brakes at all - Just a tyre mix of Directionals with Assymetrics.

:afro:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: k4ith on 10 October 2008, 20:35
so what do i need to do to tell the ed its running bigger r32 brakes.
In wee simple terms for me :laugh:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 10 October 2008, 21:03
so what do i need to do to tell the ed its running bigger r32 brakes.
In wee simple terms for me :laugh:

Follow the link from the original post in this thread!  :tongue:

Basically, hook up vag-com, and recode your brake electronics so that it understands you have the larger front anchors.  Then it can appropriately apportion the correct amount of bias - not just for normal braking, but also for ABS, EBD and ESP activation.
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: k4ith on 10 October 2008, 22:16
fantastic what will they think of next.Its a clever wee thing.
Another top post there T/T
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 10 October 2008, 22:37
fantastic what will they think of next.Its a clever wee thing.

Just think of it as a remap for your brakes!  :tongue:

Another top post there T/T

Thanks, nice to be appreciated.  I try my best.  :smiley:

Sadly, it still seems that my best isn't good enough for some though!  :rolleyes:  (and I don't mean you  :wink:  :smiley:)
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: Hurdy on 10 October 2008, 23:12
Well I received an answer from Awesome today on my TAROX upgrade. Excellent and quick customer service. They even got in touch with TAROX for their official view on the subject. This was TAROX's reply:-

"Our view on the situation is this.
 
Tarox brake systems are designed and built around a standard road going car (in the case of the Golf Gti V our own car that we are still at the moment) normally with standard wheels, we test the car at our factory with a range of different caliper sizes, piston sizes and disc sizes until we have reached the best braking performance while maintaining the limitations of the cars standard safety equipment, this in turn offers users great improvement in overall braking performance and durability without upsetting the original specifications of the manufactures safety systems. To re-calibrate the o.e systems to get a brake kit to work does not make sense as it is very complicated process to get right, although this is sometimes the only option when a big brake kit has been originally built with racing in mind. In racing the requirements are very different and cars safety systems have normally been disabled and the kit designed around pedal boxes with no brake servo so when one of these systems is used on a standard road car it can seriously effect the cars safety systems as they were not taken into consideration when the kit was made.
 
Hope this clears up where Tarox stands on this matter

Kind Regards"

T_T to dissect the answer shortly :wink:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: topher on 11 October 2008, 11:33
i think they're saying "oh.. we never thought of that" :grin:
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: k4ith on 11 October 2008, 11:38
All that cash spent on testing and nobody thought joe public might actually stick it on a road going car? fair do's that there are hundreds of cars on the road these days and they cant test them on every car but surely they must have to advise customers before they buy them. How serious is serious?
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: AwesomeSarah on 11 October 2008, 12:00
What Tarox are saying is , these have been tested to fast road specifications on cars that are designed for the road
These do not need any work on the electronics side as they do not interfere with the safety systems on the road going cars

Sarah
Title: Re: a warning to those with front brake upgrades - ESP/ASR/ABS issue
Post by: RedRobin on 12 October 2008, 14:19
What Tarox are saying is , these have been tested to fast road specifications on cars that are designed for the road
These do not need any work on the electronics side as they do not interfere with the safety systems on the road going cars

Sarah

....That's how I read it too :afro:

I'm going to ask AP Racing the same question.