GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: protechdm on 11 May 2004, 19:50
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Had ongoing problems with my 16v since purchase 4 years ago. Now on the 6th garage!!
Here's the rub - buy the car 4 years ago and after a few weeks noticed the car was consuming oil. Burnt inlet valves. So the story starts, here is the mail that was sent to the latest garage:-
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Usual 16v K-Series story - suffered stalling on depressing clutch when approaching roundabouts, slow moving traffic etc. Never happens on cold start ? gets worse the hotter the engine gets, bad when electric fan kicks in.
During this time:
New cylinder head fitted 3 yrs ago ? valves burnt.
New injectors fitted last year.
New ISV fitted 2 years ago.
Airflow meter checked 2 years ago.
Throttle body cleaned last service.
New throttle switch fitted last year.
New fuel pump fitted last year.
Had car serviced at John Austin last November, the 4th garage I have unsuccessfully used since purchasing the car 4 years ago. The car has always suffered from pinking ( reason for new cylinder head?? ), they said the timing was out and mixture was very weak. This was rectified in the service. However, took the car out after service and also noticed the stalling was apparent, this was when they mentioned getting you guys to inspect it.
The car suffered exhaust popping on overrun ever since this service and only ever since. Middle box developed a hole about a week after service so new exhaust fitted by JA in December. I?m still debating whether the exhaust popping caused this hole in the first place i.e. very hot gases in exhaust pipe. I asked them whether the exhaust was still popping before I picked up the car c/w new exhaust, they said no. Drove the car a mile, very bad popping, very annoyed.
2 days later car broke down on my partner ? stalling in traffic jam, no engine response when throttle pressed and would not run properly after restart. Went to pick her up, adjusted idle and CO2 and successfully got car home. Very annoyed.
Currently, the car does not suffer from stalling at all. It starts first time from cold or hot. Acceleration is reasonable but not what it should be. It still pops on overrun about 2500 rpm, has flat spots up to 2000 rpm either when cold or restart when engine warm i.e. left for 30 mins. A full tank of gas gets us 210 miles as opposed to a usual 330. This is predominantly A12 driving i.e. 60 mph. Temperature of oil and water seems fine when driving in any manner.
I know there is a leak on distributor, no problem if you feel it should be replaced before diagnosis. Could be a long shot but the rev counter seems to ?stick? at around 2800 rpm ? is there something in the mapping at 2900 on the EMS on these cars ?? The idle adjustment screw fits very flimsily and you may notice hissing around it.
The car has just passed MOT i.e. passed emissions. A 21 mpg return does not make sense with this.
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So, had a response from the technician who said it was the worst and saddest 16v he had ever driven, the diagnostics said 75bhp!!!!!!
He went down the usual route of solving the problem. Gave me a call at 4pm today and he sounded more wound up about the whole saga than the sum total of all my annoyance since owning the car. He has consequently sent the airflow meter off to a specialist to do whatever they do with them. He is baffled. Going off the checks he read out to me over the phone ( and the GBP total so far ), he knows his stuff and some of it went over my head.
Compression OK.
Fuel injectors OK.
Spark OK.
Exhaust popping FIXED ( airflow meter sticking ).
Timing OK ( rocker cover off, cams checked etc. ).
Low / high fuel pressure OK.
Warmup regulator OK.
Cold start OK.
Any help and pointers very much appreciated. Head scratchers and 16v KR series unite!!
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75hp :o
Have the ign timing checked to make sure it is advancing as the revs increase. Did the rolling road guy tell you what the gas readings were while under load?.
Steve.
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:o75bhp!wow, thats sad :(
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Yes he has checked the timing through the range. Not too sure about the gas reading under load though.
If you want to keep posting thoughts I'll gladly post them onto him. May get the distributor replaced whilst everything is off - you never know!!
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May be something daft, partially blocked exhaust?
Be very carefully when checking the cam timing as there are two marks on the flywheel, one is tdc and the other is 5 degrees? before (could be wrong on the timing figure, will have to check).
Steve.
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Brand new S/S exhaust. Trust his judgement on the timing, he said it was 4 degrees BTDC - should be alright for 95 RON. Think it has been running like this for so long I even noticed a bit more mid range punch once the big bore exhaust was fitted last December.
To be honest, if the airflow meter comes back faultless it will go one of 2 ways. "Borrow" parts off a friends GTi to see if it makes any difference or leave the car in a very unsafe area................
I'd get close to 2000 GBP for it as it is in such good condition but only if it goes alright on the test drive so not much point going down that route on 75bhp, but the bills for the last 3 years are fast approaching 2500 GBP so must carry this process through. The technician says he has 16v's in all the time and has managed to fix the lot, this is the only one that is he is losing sleep over. Going off what his workshop looks like and the price per hour he charges I've still got faith in the rectification. Could end up being something as daft as brake servo leak, crankcase ventilation, sticky valves etc.
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Is he using the timing mark on the flywheel or the front pulley, I ask as I have seen front pulley marks being wrong.
Steve.
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for a start mate, unless it's got a K-star onit you want to be feeding it optimax....made a huge difference to my 16v stopped the pinking and everything
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Latest report :
Airflow meter OK.
Fuel metering device now "under inspection".
Timing marks on pulleys & flywheel in correct position.
Once fuel metering device has been checked a control unit is to be "hired".
Looks like the elimination process may be nearing the point of no return. Have considered remapping the timing i.e. K-star but for the cost of it not too sure. Maybe take the back box off the exhaust and try the bhp test again - just on the off chance a bird has flown in by accident. I know this sounds like a real clutching at straws desperation idea but does anyone know what would happen if something had been maliciously stuck up the tailpipe and it lodged itself in the silencer?
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I wouldnt bother with a kstar, now optimax is available it's not really worth it.....
if something was stuffed properly up the exhaust the car would stall....
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have you thought about getting an exchanged engine? are usually readily available and not mega bucks either.
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what are the compression levels on it?
knackered rings = low compression + banjo'd timing & CO readings = lack of power
u dont even need optimax, a 16v will happily run on LRP (which is 97 RON)
as for the exhaust being stuffed with something, stand behind it while somebody rev's it hard, if its stuffed you'll here it weezing
S/S exhausts shouldnt make any real performance difference on 16v's unless its highly tuned, you'd be surprised how easy the std item breathes
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LRP is super unleaded with a lead added.
K-jets don't like LRP apparently :)
I agree with Gambit, something is missing, if all the above has been checked properly.
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The exhaust seems to be much more torquey at lower revs, exactly what the catalogue stated really. Just be careful with people in the back of car!!
As regards the engine itself, the compression was nothing other than exceptional, in fact when the head was replaced I saw there was hardly any lip on the cylinder bores. Plus, the crankcase ventilator pipe returns hardly any exhaust fumes from the crankcase to air intake.
But as you all say, it has to be something. Air intake, fuel intake or timing. Airflow meter & throttle body checked. Fuel meter being checked. Timing checked. Only parts left I suppose are fuel lines and HT leads/coil/earth straps etc ( in fact, where are the other earth straps? I know the one on the battery and the one on the N/S bonnet. )
The battery went flat once and the immobiliser LED on the dash takes about 20 secs to light up ( gets progressively brighter ) so is there some battery back-up that needs to be replaced? Think the alarm and/or immobiliser taps into the fuel pump relay circuit at some point.
On the humour side, a work associate asked if VW made a 1300 engine block that mated with a 16v DOHC head. Now that would explain it!!
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what are the compression levels on it?
knackered rings = low compression + banjo'd timing & CO readings = lack of power
u dont even need optimax, a 16v will happily run on LRP (which is 97 RON)
as for the exhaust being stuffed with something, stand behind it while somebody rev's it hard, if its stuffed you'll here it weezing
S/S exhausts shouldnt make any real performance difference on 16v's unless its highly tuned, you'd be surprised how easy the std item breathes
I always thought the 16v was only to use leaded. Since mine got rebuilt, its been run on super unleaded only.
However, when i looked into this - i have no idea why it was ever using leaded in the first place. Cant remember what i found but it clearly stated it was an unleaded car in the first place.
Some of the symptoms you are describing are on my vavler as well. (not the power bit ahem - got plenty of that).
We're currently looking for an air leak.
Tin
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k-jets never needed leaded fuel, they needed high octane fuel, min 98.
leaded fuel used to be 98 RON.
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I know the rolling road said 75hp, but does the car feel down on power?.
Steve.
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Steve I really do not know!!
The problem is that the car has never run right so to make a gauge on how the car should "feel" is a hard one. I own a Boxster, the use of the 16v is for "Porsche unfriendly" driving like M25 long haul work runs, shopping and the like. I used to drive a cal-look 8v imported one which is an absolute animal - now in storage. So, to swap from 8v to Porsche to erratic 16v won't allow any form of comparison. Suppose what is needed is a true 16v to measure against. If you, or anyone else, lives in the vacinity of Chelmsford in Essex by all means I will gladly let you have a go in it.
Tin, the head was a pattern match from EuroCarParts - cannot remember the name of the company who makes the head ( Veng, Vege summat like that ) but it has hardened valve seats which allow the hotter burning and not suffer from the lack of lead lubricant. I would sympathise with a little loss of power from unleaded but only about 3-5%.
Me-thinks-we-all-get-together-when-this-oddity-is-solved-and-celebrate-with-some-strong-fizzy-pop.
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On the matter of Lead/unleaded petrol, unleaded petrol was introduced in Germany in the early 70's and the manufacturers desgined engines accordingly. Therefore *NO* VW engine requires leaded fuel, but might need timing adjustments to account for the RON ratings.
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fuel meter came back from specialist with no faults.
Thats it, I'm stumped. A car that reads 75bhp and no diagnostic faults.
Anyone know a good arsonist willing to make a quick 20 notes?
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As Winston said, all vw engines since the late seventies were built with hardened valve seats.
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I doubt a harder metal mixture would cause 47% power loss!
Somebody must have been through this with their 16v, any one???
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You've endured this frustration and anger for 4 years? You must be a Saint!
Is it not possible to get rid of it? ::)
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Think it is a pot luck case of "how it performs on test drive".
Really cannot be bothered with the hassle. With the bill that is going to come back from the diagnostics I've basically told them "No fix. No return". He's being sort of alright about it but needs to be discussed more. Shame really, excellent condition and loads of bills. Absolutely original, black, big bumpers, brand new sports exhaust & 9k on new cylinder head. Don't care if I never see the car again, with what the guy said he could get for it minus the bill I'll get a cheap runaround if he remembers to send me the cheque once a buyer is sourced.
Cut my losses essentially. No more VW's for me ta very much. Sick to death of reading these posts on "stalling","erratic idle","misfiring" etc. Seems obvious to me there's a fundamental problem with the setup of a 16v and if it cannot be fixed by a rolling road etc. then surely it must be a manufacturing fault unless someone can tell me otherwise, and so far no-one has.
But yes I must be a saint!!
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There is nothing wrong with the 16v setup, or with any other vw unit.
Sorry mate, your car is sh!t.
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every now and again you get a bad 'un....
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where are you in chelmsford mate come along to the next junction 29 meeting, on
sunday the 23rd at the halfway house on the a127 about 2ish and there will be loads of people the to take a look at it ! ;D
check out junction29's website www.jct29.com !
p.s if you have had enough of it i'll take it off your hands :P
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yes the car is sh1t........
bit of a sweeping statement - like a female taking a car to a mechanic and saying "it doesn't work".
but the last 4 years has seen more new parts, checks, services, what any car would dream of having in terms of treatment.
what would un-sh1t the car? there's only so many factors that would cause these symptoms. a diagnostics technician for the electrical & scientifics including full compression testing and displacement doesn't leave many. spend a grand on a replacement engine?
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where abouts are you?
could you make it down to woking, surrey?
i could have a look, but i'm not around for a couple of weeks.
after that i could.
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Shame really, excellent condition and loads of bills. Absolutely original, black, big bumpers, brand new sports exhaust & 9k on new cylinder head. Don't care if I never see the car again.
Cut my losses essentially. No more VW's for me ta very much. Sick to death of reading these posts on "stalling","erratic idle","misfiring" etc.
I do understand how you feel about this dire situation. You loved the car , it gives you constant problems but you want to mend its bad ways. Spend loads of money on it. Done what you have to but still no progress---the hassle and heartache goes on??it drains you mentally & physically
MK2 Gti?s are fab cars but a lot have been messed up with even though bodywork and interior looks immaculate.
Sounds like a gravestone, the outside looks beautiful, you check under it and it full of decaying bones.
Get shot of it! The feeling afterwards cannot be expressed in any world currency?priceless??absolute peace of mind.
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Know exactly what you mean!
Apart from bodywork & interior I can say the following:-
Engine tight as anything, the only oil leak is one from the distributor shaft and not sure if replacing just the seal will cure it. Usual signs, oil in webbing on gearbox.
Primary shaft worn on gearbox ( surprise surprise too many 2nd gear limits ) but heard many noisier. Synchromeshes still OK on it.
New headlights.
New ISV.
New injectors.
New crankcase seal and input shaft/clutch finger.
Full alarm/CL/jackplug immobiliser.
New clutch 5k ago.
New anti roll bar bushes.
New rear axle bushes.
New rear tyres.
New rear shocks 7k ago.
Throttle body decoke.
New head.
Engine mount 20k ago.
New S/S exhaust.
Much appreciated for the J29 & Woking visit guys but I'm up to my neck moving house at the moment. Will definitely consider it once the diagnostics place concede and I part with whatever princely sum is asked for the work.
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Pretty much done a lot to your valver.
Good luck with final decision you make on this matter.
Best wishes.
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Jeez, I thought my mk 2 was a b!tch!!!
Hope you get it sorted mate.
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Does anyone know - or have themselves - a working control unit for a 16v mk2?
The garage think they may have found the problem. The unit is giving false readings at certain rpm which goes a long way to explaining the symptoms. He said he is hiring one and if that cures it there is an option to buy it but prices have not been mentioned yet.
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Don't know if this will help but......
As far as I am aware you cannot retard the timing on a K-Jet 16v for it to run on 95oct fuel. You have to leave it as standard (unless running the star) 5-7oBTDC, iirc. Therefore the 4o you are using at the mo' will not help the matter much.
If all else fails you can try set the timing correctly and addind a good dump of optimax or similar 97oct fuel.
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Ive just stumbled across this post and it makes for a good read but wheres the happy ending? What happened? Did you get the beast fixed? Did you solve the problem? Arrrrrrgh talk about a cliff hanger!
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did you get your car fixed m8??
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i has a k jet ignition controll unit spare
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its probably been swapped for £2k off a new car by now :lipsrsealed:
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"....and today in Threads from the Crypt, we've exhumed this beauty"
(http://images.tvrage.com/shows/6/5448.jpg)
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i has a k jet ignition controll unit spare
Im pretty sure after 5 years he doesn't want it :grin:
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wtf did this topic come from anyway then ???
big box no2 of k jet stuff moves another step closer to then then