GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: wps on 03 September 2008, 13:53
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hi all,
newbie here. i've just done a k04 upgrade on my DSG 07 GTI. using oem ed30 turbo, s3 injectors & intercooler, milltek TBE, autotech FP, rep carbonio intake with k&n drop in filter with APR k04 remap. car is performing well however i feel that the power delivery is not smooth. i get fluttering sound from my turbo between 3.5k to 4k rpm (esp on 3/4/5/6 gear). the boost (i've a boost meter installed) between 3.5 to 4k rpm doesn't seem to be holding fimrly too. feels like the car is not getting enough fuel. this problem was more obvious previously before upgrading to autotech fuel pump. could it be my intake? or fuel pump not supplying enough fuel? however, after 4.5k rpm the car pulls very smoothly till redline. i hope i can get some advise. thanks
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Hi and welcome in WPS, i cant help you but thats a very interesting thread youv'e just started there.
VRSTU and DJhorace are our resident fuel pump expert's get yourself 10 or more post's and you will beable to PM them. :smiley:
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oooh the OP has got me wondering, can you simply bolt on a K04 turbo to a standard GTI engine and get the same power as an Ed30 or would you need to upgrade other components?
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oooh the OP has got me wondering, can you simply bolt on a K04 turbo to a standard GTI engine and get the same power as an Ed30 or would you need to upgrade other components?
Don't believe it's a straight bolt on job.
JKM do a K04 upgrade pack see here http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/jkmtfsi-K04-upgrade.htm
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Hi and welcome in WPS, i cant help you but thats a very interesting thread youv'e just started there.
VRSTU and DJhorace are our resident fuel pump expert's get yourself 10 or more post's and you will beable to PM them. :smiley:
thanks top cat. will do
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wps - welcome to the forum.
You say you get good power all the way to the red line - does it feel as though it's making "good power" upto the red line, and even in the higher gears? If it is, then you don't have a fueling issue, and can rule out any fuel pump probs!
I would strongly suspect the ECU map is the problem - is the APR map an "out of the box" map, or has it been fine tuned and customised on a RR?
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hey wps...respect for all the mods :shocked: :shocked: how much has all that set you back, also what kind of power/torque are you getting :cool:
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hey wps...respect for all the mods :shocked: :shocked: how much has all that set you back, also what kind of power/torque are you getting :cool:
spend alot, dont ask :) getting around 275whp and 400nm wtorque. however, power delivery is not linear enough to my liking. facing some low end lag and not smooth power delivery between 3.5k and 4k rpm. awesome from 4.5k to redline
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The fluttering sound is probably due to the turbo stalling (not good) and I would check the dump valve (not sure of correct terminology on the mk 5) is operating properly under the increased boost pressure. I had a similar problem in my old LCR, when we were trying to set up the Forge split-R valve.
If the dump valve fitted is aftermarket then the problem will probably lie elsewhere.
Of course I might be completely wrong, but its worth a quick check. :smiley:
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Is the APR map the HPFP specific map, if not the map you have may not be requesting the fuel to go with the extra boost in the midrange, could be talking out of my @rse :smiley:
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It does sound like you have a problem.
275whp is low for a K04 conversion on a standard GTI. A standard GTI has a slightly higher compression ratio than the ED30 does and so should mean that you would see a higher figure than an ED30 with the K04 fitted. Most ED30's with a simple remap will be making over 280whp.
Is the "fluttering" noise occurring when on full accelleration or when lifting off between 3500 and 4500rpm?
If it is happening when you lift off then it is something that most remapped cars with a HPFP and forge DV will do. It is even louder with a Garrett GT28 turbo fitted.
You shouldn't have any fluttering noise under accelleration though.
I tend to agree with Gaz and think you need to look at having a custom remap, rather than a generic one as fuelling maybe out.
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It does sound like you have a problem.
275whp is low for a K04 conversion on a standard GTI. A standard GTI has a slightly higher compression ratio than the ED30 does and so should mean that you would see a higher figure than an ED30 with the K04 fitted. Most ED30's with a simple remap will be making over 280whp.
Is the "fluttering" noise occurring when on full accelleration or when lifting off between 3500 and 4500rpm?
If it is happening when you lift off then it is something that most remapped cars with a HPFP and forge DV will do. It is even louder with a Garrett GT28 turbo fitted.
You shouldn't have any fluttering noise under accelleration though.
I tend to agree with Gaz and think you need to look at having a custom remap, rather than a generic one as fuelling maybe out.
thank hurdy,
the fluttering noise (sounds like zzzccchttt, like turbo is choking. seems like not enough fueling but i'm already running an autetech FP so that should not be the problem) is like when i floor the throttle from 3k rpm onwards and when it hits 3.5k it will start having this sound as the rev increases to 4k and after 4.5k rpm, it climbs very smoothly. its between 3.5 to 4k rpm when the rpm isn't moving up smoothly. can see the turbo boost meter not holding steadily. the boost is fluctuating between 1.5 to 1.6 bar.
too bad, nobody knows who to do a custom remap in my area.
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evap solenoid?
My 05 (55), dsg was intermittently "choking", sticking revs, lacking occasional boost, I described as a flat spot to the dealer, they replaced the evap solenoid (whatever that is) and I have smooth power delivery no hesitancy at all revs. I would also experience a high pitched electrical whine after a run, with the keys out of the ignition and the car parked up...ok I given the complex nature of this post my coat's on a shoogley peg here however It just a suggestion....I admit I speak with NO technical authority, just seems a similar issue to that you are describing. I can only imagine that my stealer noticed some error codes to point them in this direction.
This was in an earlier post, hope it helps in someway...put your bullets away techies, I'm just trying to be helpful :lipsrsealed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc40BEYgPQM&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc40BEYgPQM&feature=related)
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=89662.0 (http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=89662.0)
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The fluttering sound is probably due to the turbo stalling (not good)
Huh - how could the turbo stall with engine rpms at 3½k? :undecided:
and I would check the dump valve (not sure of correct terminology on the mk 5) is operating properly under the increased boost pressure. I had a similar problem in my old LCR, when we were trying to set up the Forge split-R valve.
If the dump valve fitted is aftermarket then the problem will probably lie elsewhere.
Of course I might be completely wrong, but its worth a quick check. :smiley:
But the Mk5 don't use a "dump" valve (ie, one which vents excess boost to the atmosphere, which are well known to cause the turbo to rapidly drop off spool speed). The Mk5 use a recirculating valve, now correctly termed "cut-off valve", which would allow the turbo to spin at full speed, but simply divert excess boost back to the low pressure side of the turbo. On the standard GTI (KKK03 ???), this is done directly on the turbo housing, whereas on the Ed30/LCR/S3 KKK04 turbo with the remote "DV", the excess is sent back into the airbox - which I think the OP is still using. So like I said, the turbo itself shouldn't be stalling.
Maybe the actuall DV itself is fluttering, and over cycling?
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Is the APR map the HPFP specific map, if not the map you have may not be requesting the fuel to go with the extra boost in the midrange, could be talking out of my @rse :smiley:
Could be, but that wouldn't really account for the fluttering sound! That would be more "felt" rather than "heard".
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It does sound like you have a problem.
275whp is low for a K04 conversion on a standard GTI. A standard GTI has a slightly higher compression ratio than the ED30 does and so should mean that you would see a higher figure than an ED30 with the K04 fitted. Most ED30's with a simple remap will be making over 280whp.
Hmmmm - are you sure? Manufacturers figures are quoted as power at the flywheel, and are extremely accurate. VAG use a very accurate DIN testing standard! So anybody who states that a standard GTI is making 200whp, or standard Ed30 are making 230whp are talking BS. A standard GTI makes 200bhp at the flywheel, and the Ed30 is 230 flywheel. Roadwheel horsepower will be noticeably less, and is NEVER used by manufacturers.
It is for this very reason why wheel driven, or hub driven dynos can never be deemed accurate, because there is no way they can know exactly what the specific transmission losses are! Hub/wheel dynos are only good for making comparisons, and not for making factual claims.
I agree he has a problem though!
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It does sound like you have a problem.
275whp is low for a K04 conversion on a standard GTI. A standard GTI has a slightly higher compression ratio than the ED30 does and so should mean that you would see a higher figure than an ED30 with the K04 fitted. Most ED30's with a simple remap will be making over 280whp.
Hmmmm - are you sure? Manufacturers figures are quoted as power at the flywheel, and are extremely accurate. VAG use a very accurate DIN testing standard! So anybody who states that a standard GTI is making 200whp, or standard Ed30 are making 230whp are talking BS. A standard GTI makes 200bhp at the flywheel, and the Ed30 is 230 flywheel. Roadwheel horsepower will be noticeably less, and is NEVER used by manufacturers.
It is for this very reason why wheel driven, or hub driven dynos can never be deemed accurate, because there is no way they can know exactly what the specific transmission losses are! Hub/wheel dynos are only good for making comparisons, and not for making factual claims.
I agree he has a problem though!
Yes, I'm sure TT, Ask Vtec abuser (Ben). The Awesome RR printouts show both BHP and WHP. :smiley:
I can see what you have picked up on though. I was talking about the Standard GTI in the OP that has 275whp (with a K04 and remap) and not a standard GTI with a K04 and no remap. :smiley:
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I know of somone else who has a similar setup albeit with REVO software and has suffered some turbo stalling that sounds similar to what you are experiencing.
The turbo can stall when it is too efficient and creates more boost that is being requested.
I would suspect that this could be mapped out.
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It does sound like you have a problem.
275whp is low for a K04 conversion on a standard GTI. A standard GTI has a slightly higher compression ratio than the ED30 does and so should mean that you would see a higher figure than an ED30 with the K04 fitted. Most ED30's with a simple remap will be making over 280whp.
Hmmmm - are you sure? Manufacturers figures are quoted as power at the flywheel, and are extremely accurate. VAG use a very accurate DIN testing standard! So anybody who states that a standard GTI is making 200whp, or standard Ed30 are making 230whp are talking BS. A standard GTI makes 200bhp at the flywheel, and the Ed30 is 230 flywheel. Roadwheel horsepower will be noticeably less, and is NEVER used by manufacturers.
It is for this very reason why wheel driven, or hub driven dynos can never be deemed accurate, because there is no way they can know exactly what the specific transmission losses are! Hub/wheel dynos are only good for making comparisons, and not for making factual claims.
I agree he has a problem though!
Yes, I'm sure TT, Ask Vtec abuser (Ben). The Awesome RR printouts show both BHP and WHP. :smiley:
And how, exactly do Awesome measure that? The ONLY way to measure the true and accurate engine output is on an engine dyno - and I doubt that (a) Awesome actually have an engine dyno, and (b) they would go to the lengths required to completely remove an engine from a car and bolt it too said engine dyno! :rolleyes:
The method Awesome, and all RR operators use, is a basic conversion formula. Which like I said previously, is fine for making comparisons on the SAME car, for assessing remaps and the like. However, no rolling road or hub dyno can ever give a true and genuine power/torque output from the flywheel. :nerd:
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The turbo can stall when it is too efficient and creates more boost that is being requested.
But the turbo should only stall if either (a) and atmospheric dump valve has been fitted, or (b) the current recirc valve is not working correctly, and allowing the boost pressure to build too high, and effectively "backing-up" the turbo! :smug:
I would suspect that this could be mapped out.
Yup, agreed. :smiley:
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It does sound like you have a problem.
275whp is low for a K04 conversion on a standard GTI. A standard GTI has a slightly higher compression ratio than the ED30 does and so should mean that you would see a higher figure than an ED30 with the K04 fitted. Most ED30's with a simple remap will be making over 280whp.
Hmmmm - are you sure? Manufacturers figures are quoted as power at the flywheel, and are extremely accurate. VAG use a very accurate DIN testing standard! So anybody who states that a standard GTI is making 200whp, or standard Ed30 are making 230whp are talking BS. A standard GTI makes 200bhp at the flywheel, and the Ed30 is 230 flywheel. Roadwheel horsepower will be noticeably less, and is NEVER used by manufacturers.
It is for this very reason why wheel driven, or hub driven dynos can never be deemed accurate, because there is no way they can know exactly what the specific transmission losses are! Hub/wheel dynos are only good for making comparisons, and not for making factual claims.
I agree he has a problem though!
Yes, I'm sure TT, Ask Vtec abuser (Ben). The Awesome RR printouts show both BHP and WHP. :smiley:
And how, exactly do Awesome measure that? The ONLY way to measure the true and accurate engine output is on an engine dyno - and I doubt that (a) Awesome actually have an engine dyno, and (b) they would go to the lengths required to completely remove an engine from a car and bolt it too said engine dyno! :rolleyes:
The method Awesome, and all RR operators use, is a basic conversion formula. Which like I said previously, is fine for making comparisons on the SAME car, for assessing remaps and the like. However, no rolling road or hub dyno can ever give a true and genuine power/torque output from the flywheel. :nerd:
Agreed TT :smiley:, but my first post was about whp. I only mentioned bhp in my second post to make the differentiation.
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It does sound like you have a problem.
275whp is low for a K04 conversion on a standard GTI. A standard GTI has a slightly higher compression ratio than the ED30 does and so should mean that you would see a higher figure than an ED30 with the K04 fitted. Most ED30's with a simple remap will be making over 280whp.
Hmmmm - are you sure? Manufacturers figures are quoted as power at the flywheel, and are extremely accurate. VAG use a very accurate DIN testing standard! So anybody who states that a standard GTI is making 200whp, or standard Ed30 are making 230whp are talking BS. A standard GTI makes 200bhp at the flywheel, and the Ed30 is 230 flywheel. Roadwheel horsepower will be noticeably less, and is NEVER used by manufacturers.
It is for this very reason why wheel driven, or hub driven dynos can never be deemed accurate, because there is no way they can know exactly what the specific transmission losses are! Hub/wheel dynos are only good for making comparisons, and not for making factual claims.
I agree he has a problem though!
Hi TT,
Without trying to Open another can of worms here then, do such signatures that a few ED30 modded owners have posted, such as "306BHP/350NM at the hubs" etc ring true, or are they simply falling foul of the tuners hype?
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regarding the flutering sound i'm experiencing. i was told by a fren that it could be due a faulty sensort beside the HPFP. apparently there's a recall by VW. i'll call my dealer on monday with my vin number to see if my car is affected. any idea if that sensor could be the culprit. cheers
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not a teccie by a long way but custom code has to be the plce to go for a custom remap, go to jbs in chesterfield im sure they will be able to sort you out :smiley:
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It does sound like you have a problem.
275whp is low for a K04 conversion on a standard GTI. A standard GTI has a slightly higher compression ratio than the ED30 does and so should mean that you would see a higher figure than an ED30 with the K04 fitted. Most ED30's with a simple remap will be making over 280whp.
Hmmmm - are you sure? Manufacturers figures are quoted as power at the flywheel, and are extremely accurate. VAG use a very accurate DIN testing standard! So anybody who states that a standard GTI is making 200whp, or standard Ed30 are making 230whp are talking BS. A standard GTI makes 200bhp at the flywheel, and the Ed30 is 230 flywheel. Roadwheel horsepower will be noticeably less, and is NEVER used by manufacturers.
It is for this very reason why wheel driven, or hub driven dynos can never be deemed accurate, because there is no way they can know exactly what the specific transmission losses are! Hub/wheel dynos are only good for making comparisons, and not for making factual claims.
I agree he has a problem though!
Yes, I'm sure TT, Ask Vtec abuser (Ben). The Awesome RR printouts show both BHP and WHP. :smiley:
And how, exactly do Awesome measure that? The ONLY way to measure the true and accurate engine output is on an engine dyno - and I doubt that (a) Awesome actually have an engine dyno, and (b) they would go to the lengths required to completely remove an engine from a car and bolt it too said engine dyno! :rolleyes:
The method Awesome, and all RR operators use, is a basic conversion formula. Which like I said previously, is fine for making comparisons on the SAME car, for assessing remaps and the like. However, no rolling road or hub dyno can ever give a true and genuine power/torque output from the flywheel. :nerd:
Agreed TT :smiley:, but my first post was about whp. I only mentioned bhp in my second post to make the differentiation.
Eye, and I was just trying to clarify the well-known myth/confusion which arises between the two.
Incidentally, and related to my concern, some tw@t in the US is trying to sue Audi of America, claiming that the B7 RS4 does not make 420PS. Looks like someone will be wasting an aweful lot of money in the US legal system, because the person in question has only used either a rolling road or hub dyno. Audi will just laugh in his face when he fails to produce a TuV DIN standard engine dyno report! :rolleyes:
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It does sound like you have a problem.
275whp is low for a K04 conversion on a standard GTI. A standard GTI has a slightly higher compression ratio than the ED30 does and so should mean that you would see a higher figure than an ED30 with the K04 fitted. Most ED30's with a simple remap will be making over 280whp.
Hmmmm - are you sure? Manufacturers figures are quoted as power at the flywheel, and are extremely accurate. VAG use a very accurate DIN testing standard! So anybody who states that a standard GTI is making 200whp, or standard Ed30 are making 230whp are talking BS. A standard GTI makes 200bhp at the flywheel, and the Ed30 is 230 flywheel. Roadwheel horsepower will be noticeably less, and is NEVER used by manufacturers.
It is for this very reason why wheel driven, or hub driven dynos can never be deemed accurate, because there is no way they can know exactly what the specific transmission losses are! Hub/wheel dynos are only good for making comparisons, and not for making factual claims.
I agree he has a problem though!
Hi TT,
Without trying to Open another can of worms here then, do such signatures that a few ED30 modded owners have posted, such as "306BHP/350NM at the hubs" etc ring true, or are they simply falling foul of the tuners hype?
It's not really a can of worms as such, basically because rolling roads or hub dynos are the only real practical way for the average joe public to measure their cars performance. It is just an "accepted practice" of the most convenient way to do such things. But sadly, it should never really be used to compare, prove, or dispute the manufacturers engine dyno claims, as some people try to do.
And different tuners use differing methods of calculating transmission losses, which can give noticeably differing figures - so yes, it could be tuners trying to "hype" up their own products or services. :rolleyes:
I'm probably gonna loose a few friends by saying this, but RR or hub dyno readings are just another method of "willy waving"! :wink: :grin:
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regarding the flutering sound i'm experiencing. i was told by a fren that it could be due a faulty sensort beside the HPFP. apparently there's a recall by VW. i'll call my dealer on monday with my vin number to see if my car is affected. any idea if that sensor could be the culprit. cheers
The VW "recall" (and not an official VOSA recall) is actually the high pressure sensor for the fuel rail, and is applicable to all Mk5 GTI engines (I think!, though not sure about the early AAX donkey). Mine was replaced last week, due to being faulty - but it did not cause any adverse running, nor make any noise. So I think, wps, this may be a bit of a red herring for your specific concern.
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not a teccie by a long way but custom code has to be the plce to go for a custom remap, go to jbs in chesterfield im sure they will be able to sort you out :smiley:
Sorry, but can not agree with Custom Code. They simply "purchase" stock "tuned" maps from a 3rd party, bung them on their lappies, and plug in and go. They do not use any RR developments for any of their "standard" maps. Any Custom Code "dealers" or "resellers" who do carry out alterations to Custom Code maps then simply modify them beyond the original "Custom Code" spec, and so no traceability, and no scope for comparision between other "related" Custom Code maps - unlike say Superchips or REVO, which will know about every single tweak or alteration to their own maps. Superchips themselves tweak their own maps and no one else is allowed to, whereas REVO agents are allowed to alter REVO maps, but these revised datamaps are then sent back to REVO, for them to keep/assess/tweak or whatever - thus providing traceability back to the actual "name" of the product you specifically purchased.
I have some serious concerns about the wording in the official Custom Code advertising too! :rolleyes:
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could the fluttering be from a faulty DV. i'm currently using a brand new version 'g' dv. anyone on ed30/s3 experience using a forge replacement DV. does the boost holder better. cheers
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could the fluttering be from a faulty DV. i'm currently using a brand new version 'g' dv. anyone on ed30/s3 experience using a forge replacement DV. does the boost holder better. cheers
Forge claim that their DV is faster reacting and holds boost for longer over the rev range. For me it was simply a way of eliminating the possibliity of a blown DV as the Forge item is a piston type valve rather than a diaphragm one. :cool:
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i've vagcom my car and engine shows no error codes. i suspect that fluttering noise could be due to insufficient fueling from my autotech pump as i'm running an APR k04 software. but if there's not enough fuel pressure, engine error should appear in vagcom right? i've tried replacing the carbonio intake back to stock intake and the boost still not holding steadily and have fluttering sound. i've still no idea wat the problem is. will check DV & next is to try an APR fuel pump.
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i've vagcom my car and engine shows no error codes. i suspect that fluttering noise could be due to insufficient fueling from my autotech pump as i'm running an APR k04 software. but if there's not enough fuel pressure, engine error should appear in vagcom right? i've tried replacing the carbonio intake back to stock intake and the boost still not holding steadily and have fluttering sound. i've still no idea wat the problem is. will check DV & next is to try an APR fuel pump.
Have you had the official VW recall for the faulty fuel pressure sender? If not, and it is faulty, then vag-com may be incorrectly reporting, hence why you are scratching your balls and getting nowhere!
I seriously doubt it will be the fuel pump, because earlier in the thread, you indicated it made very good top-end power. Any weakness in fuel delivery will be obvious at top-end too.
If the boost really is fluctuating, then check the tightness of all the intercooler and air intake hoses and seals. Is the intercooler itself in good nick, without any internal or external damage. What about your MAF - have you ever run a non-standard or oiled air filter, or no filter at all?
And finally, even though you have the latest spec OEM recirc valve, the diaphragm could still be torn.
HTH, but please get the recall checked out. :wink: :smiley: If you like, PM me your VIN, and I can check online for any outstanding workshop actions.