GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: Soundlab on 19 August 2008, 17:17
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Hi all,
I have no doubts that this question has been posted over and over, but having NEVER driven a car with anything remotely like a DSG gearbox, is it definitely something I should try before I ask my local VW dealer to find me a car ? (i'll be looking for an '06 car by the way).
The problem I'm going to have is, both of the cars that they currently have available are manuals - I've driven one of them (which is what persuaded me to choose it as my next car), but I've not driven a DSG. Do I ask them to get one in for me to try or do I just stick with what I know ?
I don't really want to waste a private sellers time by testing driving their car just because it has DSG. I know I'm going to get it from the local dealer (one of the salesmen is an old school mate so will look after me) but the more I read the more I think I ought to give it a try.
Thoughts ?
Daz
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....I'm afraid there's only one answer, Daz! You MUST try a DSG to see if you like it or not. You can't afford to miss the opportunity and then later find you want one.
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you'll love it, dsg is awesome imo and most other peoples too on here.
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Well sorted bit of kit. I do get ripped a bit from my more purest petrol head friends but for day to day use its fantastic.
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I have an even more "scientific" way to evaluate the "DSG" concern. :wink:
Firstly, arrange a test drive in a "normal" automatic - which, if you are a manual-only person, will realise how crap the majority of auto boxes are. :rolleyes:
Then, now this is the important bit, arrange a "full day" test drive in a DSG. You'll need a full day, because the DSG does need a little time to get used to. :cool:
Finally, hand the DSG car back, and get in your own manual car at the height of the stop-start rush hour. :cry:
Outcome - your mind will be made up - you will have a DSG! :evil:
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Go to another localish dealer and try a DSG
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I had manuals all the time until I test drove a car with DSG. Its nothing like a standard automatic, its soooo much better. DSG all the way here :smiley:
PS Welcome to the forum Soundlab :wink:
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Thanks for the feedback guys - I think I'll see if I can find one to test somewhere :smiley:
I've driven a few auto cars in the past and generally HATED them...so I guess that is what originally put me off a DSG. Now I've actually read up a lot more about it, i'm a lot more interested.
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....Don't think of DSG as an automatic - Explore using the Manual-mode. Use D and S only when needed.
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I have driven loads of autos .... and drive 530d's at work every day. I am very, very used to driving an auto quickly. The BMW auto is the only one I have driven that comes close to the DSG.
FWIW ..... though I have DSG on my Edition 30 and love it - it is because of where I live (outskirts of London) and not because I get on with the box brilliantly.
It gives much more in the way of options to a normal auto and that is something I still have to get fully used to. On a country road I would be quicker with a manual because my small brain has trouble adjusting to using paddles as opposed to a stick :grin:
I know in spirited driving mode :evil: I would prefer the manual. For everyday though where most driving is far from spirited it has to be DSG ..... I would not swap and hope I continue to learn how to get the best from the paddles !
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Yes, you definitely should try DSG.
You may like it, you may not, but you DO need to try it :wink: :cool:
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....It took me nearly 20,000 miles before I even started to use the paddles, SO8. I had a block in my mind that they were tiny plastic thingys and didn't feel tactile enough. I was totally wrong and now I use them exactly when I would use a floor stick in a gate but with faultless accuracy and speed. They're even better for the twisties when you need both hands on the wheel.
As you already know, DSG in town is perfect and you can always use a paddle to override temporarily - I'm so used to thinking manually and using the paddles that I sometimes override D-mode by mistake.
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Correct me if I´m wrong (and I´m from Sweden so there´s a big chance that I am) :smiley:.
Isn´t the DSG gearbox like two gearboxe´s built in to one, where you have the one box
with the gears 1, 3 and 5 when the "other" box has the gears 2, 4 and 6.. if you go driving
on the fourth gear, the fifth gear is already "in gear" but it´s clutch is (how do you say this)
mayby you could say it´s clutch is "down".. and is waiting for the driver to shift gear.
With electronics you "shift out" the forth gear and "shift in" the fifth gear almoust simultaneously...
The "shifting" is very fast, and I have overtaken a few very fast cars with my 30 Edition that
I thougt would beat me easy.
The DSG box rules!! :cool:
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Yes you are correct GTI30EDITION :cool:
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DSG is great, never likes Auto boxes - this is a different league as its set the new benchmark as you can see other Manufacturers now following the idea.
Would I have one again .. hell yes.
I had a GT Sport DSG for a few days a couple of weeks ago and even with the TDI its great.
If you thinking about a GTI then you MUST try both otherwise you will always wonder..
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Well, I've found a few dealers dotted around within 30 to 40 miles that have DSG GTI's in stock, so I'll go along to one as soon as I can and try one out. I'm definitely intrigued by the DSG approach so I'll see what's it like. It's clearly a very good 'box or you guys wouldn't be louding it as much as you are - so that's very encouraging. :smiley:
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I own a manual GTi but had a go with the DSG recently and was really pleasantly suprised. It isnt like your average auto box at all, the changes are incredibly quick due to the two clutches. The only thing I noticed with the dealers I tried (bought mine just under a month ago) is that the DSGs tend to be rarer, particularly if your 2nd hand spec is very specific - as a result, many dealers will drive a harder bargain on the DSG models. But as pretty much everyone else has said you really do need to experience it so that there are no doubts when you do splash the cash!
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I tried 2 DSG's and didnt take to it unfortunately. Although it is better than normal autos. For me it takes away from the driving experience, as I enjoy being able to choose when my gear changes are made. Although many will argue that you can do the same with DSG, it just seems that its to easy to stick it in D and drive. Lazyness does eventually kick in :undecided:
I wouldnt rule it out in the future.. but whilst i am young and able..... I will be sticking to the old fashioned stick in the middle!
like a proper petrol head :lipsrsealed: :grin:
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I will be sticking to the old fashioned stick in the middle!
like a proper petrol head :lipsrsealed: :grin:
thats sooooooooooooooo 80's R32uk!!, this is the Technology of today!!!. :laugh: :wink:
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You must try the DSG. I was very unsure about this kind of technology, but after a 1hr test drive in the GTi and R32 it was sold IMO.
I'll definitively be going down the auto route!
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I will be sticking to the old fashioned stick in the middle!
like a proper petrol head :lipsrsealed: :grin:
thats sooooooooooooooo 80's R32uk!!, this is the Technology of today!!!. :laugh: :wink:
I know.. I know!! But cant beat a good old tussle with the stick :wink:
Did drive an old 308gtb round a track as well as a 360 modena... and have to say the 308 was defo the more fun! Just cant beat good old fashioned engineering esp when braking from 120 without abs.. soooo much fun!! but obviously at some point new technology will take over... just in this case I think its a shame :undecided:
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....It took me nearly 20,000 miles before I even started to use the paddles, SO8. I had a block in my mind that they were tiny plastic thingys and didn't feel tactile enough. I was totally wrong and now I use them exactly when I would use a floor stick in a gate but with faultless accuracy and speed. They're even better for the twisties when you need both hands on the wheel.
As you already know, DSG in town is perfect and you can always use a paddle to override temporarily - I'm so used to thinking manually and using the paddles that I sometimes override D-mode by mistake.
Same with me Robin. I'm so used to the paddles that even in D mode I override the shifts automatically! Love the DSG.
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I tried 2 DSG's and didnt take to it unfortunately. Although it is better than normal autos. For me it takes away from the driving experience, as I enjoy being able to choose when my gear changes are made. Although many will argue that you can do the same with DSG, it just seems that its to easy to stick it in D and drive. Lazyness does eventually kick in :undecided:
I wouldnt rule it out in the future.. but whilst i am young and able..... I will be sticking to the old fashioned stick in the middle!
like a proper petrol head :lipsrsealed: :grin:
....I was lazy for the first 10k miles and just used to pop from D to S mode for overtakes and twisties. Now I drive her with a manual mindset 95% of the time and just use D for urban and traffic jams. That's one of the great things about DSG - It offers different options. But not everybody takes to it - It's all in the mind. You would expect me at 61yo with over 40 years driving to reject DSG.
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As you already know, DSG in town is perfect and you can always use a paddle to override temporarily - I'm so used to thinking manually and using the paddles that I sometimes override D-mode by mistake.
Same with me Robin. I'm so used to the paddles that even in D mode I override the shifts automatically! Love the DSG.
....And I thought I was the only one to do that! :laugh: Even when that happens, being already in D, the DSG reverts to D after about 30 seconds after each manual paddleshift if you leave the stick in D.
Sometimes at a busy junction from a standstill, I will pop into D for the start-off to gain smoothness followed by a paddleshift to 2nd gear and then quickly shift the floor stick back to M and continue in a manual mindset.
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As you already know, DSG in town is perfect and you can always use a paddle to override temporarily - I'm so used to thinking manually and using the paddles that I sometimes override D-mode by mistake.
Same with me Robin. I'm so used to the paddles that even in D mode I override the shifts automatically! Love the DSG.
....And I thought I was the only one to do that! :laugh: Even when that happens, being already in D, the DSG reverts to D after about 30 seconds after each manual paddleshift if you leave the stick in D.
Sometimes at a busy junction from a standstill, I will pop into D for the start-off to gain smoothness followed by a paddleshift to 2nd gear and then quickly shift the floor stick back to M and continue in a manual mindset.
Yup. Or you can click the right paddle and hold it for a few seconds to revert back to D mode.
I do it the other way around sometimes- start of in M mode so that I can hold a gear longer (to change lanes etc.) then click the lever over to the right and continue in D. So many options :smiley:
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Thought I'd stick my two penneth in!!
Having driven DSG in Audi's, GTI's and an R32 I can concur with my honourable gentlemen that it is indeed the greatest gearbox mankind has ever produced!!
However, it's not for me. On every occasion I have used a DSG, once the initial excitment over the paddles has eased I just find my self driving everywhere in D. And me being of the lazy variety I could see this being the ongoing theme. So for me it's the 'purist's' ( :grin:) choice as it's alot to invest in something that wouldn't be used to it's full potential.
Good luck with your choice, im sure you'll be more than happy with whatever decision you make! :smiley:
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DSG....I lurrrve it, it is amazing. It is involving when you want it to be and quiet when you can't be arsed.
Only thing that concerns me is the longevity of the DSG units, I intend to keep my 55 plate for a few years, probably the next 4 or 5...I am kacking my pants about a major failure and a ridiculous cost to replace/ fix.
I would bet my fears are unfounded statistically, someone will probably quote any number of high mileage boxes they have heard of, however one does wonder if they will stand the true test of time.....£5k for a new box, or is that an urban myth.... :undecided:
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DSG....I lurrrve it, it is amazing. It is involving when you want it to be and quiet when you can't be arsed.
Only thing that concerns me is the longevity of the DSG units, I intend to keep my 55 plate for a few years, probably the next 4 or 5...I am kacking my pants about a major failure and a ridiculous cost to replace/ fix.
I would bet my fears are unfounded statistically, someone will probably quote any number of high mileage boxes they have heard of, however one does wonder if they will stand the true test of time.....£5k for a new box, or is that an urban myth.... :undecided:
....I really believe that you need not be quite so concerned. I wish I could lay my hands on or remember the info details but it was saying that the DSG box is essentially the same as the Manual gearbox except for having two clutches and a control module. The important thing is to do regular maintenance and change the DSG oil+filter as recommended. The box has so many self-protective safeguards against misuse.
Enjoy DSG and Think Positive!
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:smiley: of course, Guess I am just a little nervous right now, cos the Tech who did my mot (It flew through BTW) found a slight oil sweat from the box and my warranty expires early next month.
It's going in with the stealer next week for a check, TT reckons it could potentially just be an overspill of oil from the last service. Having said that someone on MK-VIs reckoned they had an oil leak that required an internal seal fitted. Apart from the Audi boys questioning their reliability I have not read that much negative about the dsg box to back up my fears, so as you say remain positive and enjoy the drive.
Actually didnt mean to thread hijack, so right on topic now....Go Try A DSG FIRST!! :) Flawless, speedy, changes and with a milltek.., tunnel drive, windows down...phwoaaarr! :evil:
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Had a drive in my mates 07 TT 3.2 DSG at the weekend so I’m no longer a DSG virgin!!
I was very impressed at how easy it was to get used to going down the gears with the left hand and up with the right, I actually felt fairly confident after only a few minutes of driving, obviously it's trickier for a newbee when maneuvering at low speeds in a car park etc and I found myself looking down at the stick a lot to get it into R and manual modes but obviously knowing your way around the gear lever would become second nature after a while. I did slam my left foot on the brake pedal by mistake at crawling speed, when looking for the clutch pedal out of habit, causing us both to shoot forward onto our seat belts! So you definitely have to 'unlearn' some habits.
After about half an hour of driving I was still unsure whether I preferred it to a manual. I was definitely not getting the best out of the 3.2 and was staying in 1st gear longer than I would normally when setting of, but once driving it felt unbelievably smooth. And that is what I didn't like about it, it almost felt like I was driving the TT with the controls from a Playstation and I felt totally disconnected from the engine. I also can't remember if the ECU blips the throttle on downshifts which is something I would be looking for in a semi-manual to make it more interesting.
Another problem I have with it is, as R32UK says, I think the novelty of using the paddles would wear off and end up using it in D or S most of the time. Don't get me wrong, I think it’s a brilliant system but I think I'll need a few more drives in one before I would consider it in my next car.
Isn’t an upcoming version of the DSG going to have 7 speeds? Or have I dreamt that…
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....Yes, a 7-speed dry clutch DSG.
"Novelty" of the paddleshifters? - I don't understand that at all. Neither do I feel "disconnected from the engine" but that's partly why I have Millteks. I hate all cars in which you feel cacooned and silent and therefore detached.
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Well, spoke to my mate just now at the local VW dealer and he arranged for a DSG car to be brought over while I was on the phone. So I should be testing one in the next week or so :smiley:
I'm looking forward to giving it a try.
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no one has mentioned the best feature. :smug:
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/tomashandmilly/51iCKU7wqgL_SL500_AA240_.jpg)
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Out of interest, how does the 'box handle changing up or down 2 or 3 gears in one step in each of the modes.
For example, if gently cruising at 30mph in 6th you want to change down to 3rd to overtake, how does the 'box react in each of the modes (D, S and manual) ?
I'm guessing it's a little slower than when just moving through the gears normally.
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Out of interest, how does the 'box handle changing up or down 2 or 3 gears in one step in each of the modes.
For example, if gently cruising at 30mph in 6th you want to change down to 3rd to overtake, how does the 'box react in each of the modes (D, S and manual) ?
I'm guessing it's a little slower than when just moving through the gears normally.
....It's one of the things I first tested when starting to use the paddles. Any number of shifts is handled immediately: click > click > click > click, but watch you don't shift her into 1st gear!! Same on the way up the box but it's not a good way to drive as you're not using suitable revs. Great in an emergency though.
In view of Top Cat's post below I best add that I was referring to what happens when staying in M-mode and only using the paddles.
My driver training means that I always shift gears to keep the optimum revs - I very rarely rely on all the torque to take it up and I drive in M-mode 95% of the time. It's probably the reason why I never exceed 30 mpg!
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Out of interest, how does the 'box handle changing up or down 2 or 3 gears in one step in each of the modes.
For example, if gently cruising at 30mph in 6th you want to change down to 3rd to overtake, how does the 'box react in each of the modes (D, S and manual) ?
I'm guessing it's a little slower than when just moving through the gears normally.
IN d mode at 30 it would probably be in 5th if you then change down manually 2 or three gear's there is not much difference than changing down one, the car kind of pause's for a fraction then your away.
Same in manual i never really change down in manual below 3rd if i pull up at a junction and have to stop it will select first for me trying to go from 2nd to 1st manually is not really viable it often jerk's a bit so never bother.
If i go from 6th to 3rd in manual there is very little difference between this and dropping down 1 gear 90% of the time, i say 90 because for whatever reason sometimes it can have a little think about it first. :smiley:
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Interesting...thanks for the feedback. When I get to try one I'll have a bit of a play. I'm certainly very open to the idea of going for a DSG car, really quite looking forward to testing one.
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Interesting...thanks for the feedback. When I get to try one I'll have a bit of a play. I'm certainly very open to the idea of going for a DSG car, really quite looking forward to testing one.
when you go for a test drive place in D mode and get up to about 40mph then floor it and push the pedal past were it stop's you will feel it click a little bit further this is called kick down mode. do this and watch your face in the mirror you wont be able to see the end's of your mouth. :wink:
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Interesting...thanks for the feedback. When I get to try one I'll have a bit of a play. I'm certainly very open to the idea of going for a DSG car, really quite looking forward to testing one.
when you go for a test drive place in D mode and get up to about 40mph then floor it and push the pedal past were it stop's you will feel it click a little bit further this is called kick down mode. do this and watch your face in the mirror you wont be able to see the end's of your mouth. :wink:
the click normally is your ankle dis-locating if you pressing that hard!
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....I've never used 'kick-down' - I don't see the point as optimum gearing can be achieved much more reliably otherwise.
Very funny this evening coming home after a meet in Bournemouth with some Mk2 GTI lads and gal with fine Lupo GTI - At a traffic lights, a dude with his gf in a nice black A3 decided to floor it hard on the green light. He fluffed his gear change amidst the sound of loud crunching! I just let him get on with it and wasn't going to race. But a bit further on we came to be absolutely alongside each other approaching a roundabout. We weren't racing but he was so obviously leaving his braking as late as possible, but he wasn't to know about the late braking capabilities of my AP's and so I left him for dead. It did make me laugh out loud in the car. The point is that gearshifts are faultless on a DSG.
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I have the manual GTI and this is what I was looking for since I thought an 'automatic' was for old / lazy people. However after a few weeks of ownership I've come to realise that when you put your foot down you can very very quickly end up in the red revs zone and you do loose a bit of time changing gears - the 2.0T is much more free revving that the old 1.8T. Feels like you've barely changed before its time to change again. So if I was choosing again I would deff give the DSG some serious consideration as from all accounts the lightning gear changes of the DSG suit the free revving nature of the engine.
That said the manual box is no dissapointment....
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Well, I drove one today, an '05 with DSG - but no paddles.
I spent around 40 minutes with the car...driving on open roads and through busy traffic in the town centre. I tried D, S and manual modes. The gearbox has to be one of the best pieces of technology to come to the car. I put it into D as I left the garage and gently cruised up the road. To look down and find I was already in 6th was quite shocking - as I didn't feel ANY gearchanges...not in the slightest. The only way I knew I was in 6th was because the display told me so. In auto mode, this has to be the most exceptional auto to date.
In S mode, I don't know if the box had an issue or not, but cruising at 30mph it wanted to stay in 2nd ! We knocked it back into D - at which point it went up to 6th, knocked it back into S and it was staying in 3rd. Seemed a bit weird to me.
Manual mode ... using the stick for manual mode kept catching me out. I had no problem with when to change gear, this was fine. The issue was that I wanted to pull on the stick to shift up and push on the stick to shift down (in my head this just seems more sensible). So, I kept having to think about my changes - and a couple of times in traffic I got it the wrong way around.
Overall though, I have to say, I prefer the feel of manual. I know it was only 40 minutes behind the wheel, but even in manual -> using the stick, I still felt separated from the car, and it kind of reduced my opinion of the car overall. There was far less sense of occassion compared to when I drove the manual, and I did come away feeling quite disappointed in the car.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind at all that DSG gearboxes will be everywhere soon, but at this stage they are not for me. I need manual - even if it does mean I take fractionally longer to get to 60 ! :wink:
Also, today was the first time I realised just how much of the Skyline performance I will miss. There's no doubt that the GTI is a great performer and picks up speed well, but it truely is never going to be a match for my current car. I'm REALLY going to have to get used to that when I finally make the cross-over.
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Nice write up Soundlab.Although difficult not to, you really shouldn't compare your Skyline with the GTI. Remember it's only a hot hatch you have to compare it against other car's in it's class to gauge what your getting.
In relation to the test drive it take's a few week's really to fully understand all of the different way's you can use the gear box. S-mode will keep it in the gear that give's you maximum power at that given time. It is not practical to use unless your on a rally stage or have the paddles to change up when it's appropiate, ie out on a fast drive and come up to a village just go up through the gears get past the village and floor it.
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Paddles are definatley worth having, I hardly ever use S mode.
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Nice write up Soundlab.Although difficult not to, you really shouldn't compare your Skyline with the GTI. Remember it's only a hot hatch you have to compare it against other car's in it's class to gauge what your getting.
I agree totally, and of all the performance hatches out there - it is the only one that interests me. I like the cross between practicality, performance and style. It truely is the best all round package.
I do think I'll miss the complete raw power of the Skyline - and I guess that's what I was trying to say. At the same time though, there is rarely an opportunity to stretch the Skylines legs (not for where I tend to drive anyway). It really is just starting to get going when you hit triple figures - and that's already well into license threatening speeds ! In all honesty, the Golf will be far more practical and still fun, and that's why I'm doing it.
I will definitely be getting it REVO'd though :wink:
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A dash of Revo just gives us that want it that little bit more and makes a good all rounder a great all rounder.
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I wish I could lay my hands on or remember the info details but it was saying that the DSG box is essentially the same as the Manual gearbox except for having two clutches and a control module.
Yup! To be really pedantic, it is actually two manual gearboxes contained in one gearbox housing. And it has two motorcycle-type wet multi-plate clutches, whereas a conventional manual has a single plate dry clutch, and a conventional auto has a torque convertor fluid flywheel.
The mechatronics control modules are now common on most modern auto boxes, along with the Vauxhall/Opel Easytronic gearbox, and stuff like the BMW SMG.
The important thing is to do regular maintenance and change the DSG oil+filter as recommended. The box has so many self-protective safeguards against misuse.
Yep, and if you have had a remap, or like to make use of the launch control or drag strips, then think about halving the DSG fluid change interval.
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no one has mentioned the best feature. :smug:
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/tomashandmilly/51iCKU7wqgL_SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Ohh, yours must be posher than mine, 'cause mine farts! :grin:
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Out of interest, how does the 'box handle changing up or down 2 or 3 gears in one step in each of the modes.
For example, if gently cruising at 30mph in 6th you want to change down to 3rd to overtake, how does the 'box react in each of the modes (D, S and manual) ?
I'm guessing it's a little slower than when just moving through the gears normally.
....It's one of the things I first tested when starting to use the paddles. Any number of shifts is handled immediately: click > click > click > click, but watch you don't shift her into 1st gear!! Same on the way up the box but it's not a good way to drive as you're not using suitable revs. Great in an emergency though.
In view of Top Cat's post below I best add that I was referring to what happens when staying in M-mode and only using the paddles.
Hmmmm. That is not quite correct - and there was a TSB released to "address" such concerns.
In manual mode (and manual over-ride), the "command" changes are all sequential - ie, all the shifts requested by the driver via the paddles or floor shift lever - are all concurrent such as 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 > 5 > 4 > 3 > 2 > 1. Using the paddles or floor shifter in manual mode will not allow any "skipped" changes. Furthermore, only those commands which are deemed safe by the ECU are actioned - so if you were travelling at 70mph in 6th gear, and then clicked the minus paddle 5 times (or more), the gearbox will NOT shift into 1st gear, or even 2nd. This is part of the "fail safe" mechanism, and works the same way as going up the gearbox. If you happen to be travelling at less than 31mph, then the box will not shift into 6th, no matter how many times you work the plus paddle.
However, in either D or S mode, the box can carry out "normal" shifts in either a sequential manner, or by skipping one or more intermediate ratios. For example, if you are travelling in D mode at 40mph on a light throttle, and see an overtake opportunity - if you press the accelerator, but not activating the kick-down, the box can change from 6th to 3rd, completely missing out 5th and 4th. In this manner, the auto modes can offer faster downshifts than can be achieved in manual mode.
Naturally, irrespective of which mode is selected, if you activate the kick-down, then the box will immediately select the lowest possible permitted ratio, completely skipping any intermediate ratios. It won't pass Go, and it certainly won't collect its £200 on the way! :grin:
Another superb function, which few people seem to be aware of - is that the DSG uses an "intelligent" kick-down function, whereby the kick-down will self cancel within a reasonably quick timescale.
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^^^^^^^ All good info cheer's TT it's a complex piece of kit a bit like the author of the last post. :nerd:
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^^^^^^^ All good info cheer's TT it's a complex piece of kit a bit like the author of the last post. :nerd:
Who ??? Me???
<whistles>
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: