GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: EvoVI on 22 May 2008, 17:55
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Hi,
New user here, so a bit about myself and then onto my question??
Ive managed to buy a Mk 2 Golf GTi 8v about 4 months ago, its been lowered on coilovers and has a nice set of deep dish rims(Think there ATS cups?????)along with some other nice touches, as I needed a runaround car, as I didnt want to put the miles on my Evo 6. Ive always been into Jap cars and im on my 3rd Evo along with a few scoobies etc, so Ive never really had or been into german/euro car scene, but since Ive bought my Mk2 Golf ive started to really like it, and I know its a bit sad but Ive kind of love to drive it at every chance I get(Havent driven the Evo is 2 weeks :grin:), even though its not as quick as the cars ive owned, It does have something about it, and it still does get quite a bit of attention.
Anyway enough of the boring stuff!! My question is What sort of engine conversions can you put in the Mk2 Golf, Ive seen 1.8T from the S3,TT,etc but they seem quite expensive and I dont want to be spending £Â£Ã‚£Ã‚£'s if I can help it, but Ive been looking at the G60 engine as they seem to be a bit cheaper then the 1.8T. Just wanted to know would this fit to my Mk2 1.8 8v Gti gearbox, and what other sort of mods would I need to make this fit and what sort of money are we looking at.
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yes the G60 can be bolted to your 8v gearbox which is 02O. this saves the hassle of changing clutch cable setups and gearshift setups.
i got my G60 engine and all anciallarys, charger, alternator, coolant pipework, charger ect for £800 and the gearbox.
its requires no modification to fit... sits excatly the same as the 8v and plugs straight in assuming yours is a 90 spec digifant. one modification is getting a FMIC and getting a rallye outlet. then its just a case of boost pipe fabrication.
the PAS fluid bottle in my case needed moving abit.
i fitted a 4branch manifold, but the G60 manifold will bolt on a 16v downpipe i think.
i have no idea about 20vt fitment but to be honest thats the best way to get big power gains, seems buying a rite off is the best way so you have a doner car.
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Sorry i love pics lol... before and after.. this happened over easter weekend and dont worry i will be fitted a FMIC before it runs.
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa226/Dollycupra/Golf/Engine.jpg)
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa226/Dollycupra/Golf%20build/DSCF0288.jpg)
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After having a go in my mates g60 cab recently I would say that's the way to go!
It was immense.
He'd tuned it to over 200hp he reckons
With a smaller pulley wheel and chip etc. amongst other things
And it's a straight bolt in (within reason) and won't need the £Â£Ã‚£Ã‚£Ã‚£ a 1.8T conversion would.
Do it
You won't regret it :smiley:
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vr6 is the cheapest conversion. alot of power for the money. whole car would cost you about £500 if you hunt around.
you can do 1.8t conversions on the cheap by using salvage cars. Places charge £5k for the 1.8t conversion....rip off
I know a guy who has an r32 engine that he might be selling for reasonable money if your interested?
The manifolds, downpipes and brakes are the probably the most expensive thing
Dolly...how much of a pain was that conversion? Alot of messing about with wiring or did you get away with using the digifant loom?
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yeah i was justabout to say whats the wiring like for the conversion is it alot of splicing?
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to look at it was a nightmare, but once you take a step back you basically got 2 seperate looms into 1
1 is lights so i laid that out in the about area.. and the other covers ancillarys.
i had to chop and extend the wiper loom around 5/6 wires as it just wasnt long enough.
theres 4 white connectors going into the fusebox.. they simply plug in where i removed the 8v gti 4.
theres a relay which doesnt exsist on the gti. its for fuel cut off on over run i think.. ditched that lol.
erm still got to do this one... the trigger for the rev counter is different i need to chop into the wire from the ignition coil and then plug that into another wire.
i have a plug lying around which can reach halfway to front so dont know what that is, and my horn doesnt work :shocked:
my hardest job was removing a crapy aftermarket alarm thing.
mine is the later digipants so g60 plugged in as above, but im assured earlier cars are alot more tricky
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Thanks for the info!!! My Mk2 is a 1988 on a E reg so im guessing it will be a bit harder with the wiring side of things as its the older model, but if the G60 lump fits straight in without making to much adjustments then I dont mind giving the wring loom a go.
I think the G60 would be the best option for what I want, as I didnt want to go down the VR6 route as its quite a big heavy engine(even though it sound very nice) :cool: and I would like to still make the car as light as possible and not to forget that the VR6 engine is going to drink a lot more petrol then the 1.8 8v G60 lump, and I dont want to go extreme as its still my daily drive!!!
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if you want power, and sound. Get vr6. If you want something small and light that wont be as much hassle, then get the G60.
Judging by your conditions then i'd go for the g60, as the vr6 is more of a sports car than a daily drive.
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Hey,
Been looking into g60 conversions recently. Any chance of a total list of stuff that needs to be done/bought to make the conversion as easy as possible?
would greatly appreciate it :grin:
nice one
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I would like to still make the car as light as possible
So why aren't you considering a 2.0 16V ABF out of a Seat Toledo or similar?
150bhp as standard and a light sprinkling of cash will see rather more than that, without the aggravation of worrying about G-Lader rebuilds, intercoolers and all the other stuff that forced induction motors demand, all of which means more performance-blunting weight. Don't go junking the ABF management and going K-jet 'cos it's easy' - that misses the point of the electronic management which will save you fuel and improve performance (and tune-ability).
As you're running 8V at the moment go hunt out an end of life (through corrosion) Toledo 16V and drop the front subframe with the wishbones et al (it's all Golf2 stuff). You will get 280mm front brakes as well as the ABF and cable-change 'box (with a cable clutch that hooks right up). You WILL need to sort out the loom, but if you find the right person that's not difficult (it's happening in my workshop in Bristol at the moment).
It would be my opinion that if you want to keep the fun concentrate on losing the weight and getting a pokey NA motor under the bonnet. If you look somewhere like Northloop (Nurburgring enthusiasts) you'll see a lot of people with hot Golf2s running ABF motors, NOT G-Laders and 1.8Ts (or pig-iron VR6s). They're the guys turning in the most hot laps and probably having the most fun (and probably spending the least on repairs and maintenance, actually).
Go away from the weight and complexity, go towards the lightness and simplicity - you'll enjoy the car more, as you'll be driving it more.
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nothing wrong with kjet! its been proven up to 200bhp and is easier and cheaper to tune because you dont need to remap anything, its all done with an allen key :tongue:
how come in the mk3 it makes 150bhp and in a mk2 on kjet they usually see 165bhp
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quick list of the top of my head for the G60
Engine + ancillarys
Charger + boost pipes, if planning on FMIC then easiest way is to get hold of a rallye outlet
G60 rad from corrado or a mk2 1.3 rad ( outlet and inlet need to be on the N/S)
O2O 8v box can be bolted on but i thnk you use 16v clutch parts?
if you go G60 02A you will need... a passat gearshift with cables. then either a hydraluic type pedal box from a corrado ect or the adapter to use a cable i got mine from strictly dubs
a mk2 golf 1.3 speedo drive if you go to O2A
exhaust using the G60 manifold then i think you need 16v downpipe. i got a 4 branch TSR manifold though
and of course the engine wiring loom andecu
8v subframe, driveshafts, steering, engine mounts ect all the same but i chose to use G60 engine mounts on box and engine rear, engine front mount i went solid.
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heres mine
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=64574.0
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nothing wrong with kjet!
There's a lot wrong with K-jet. It's a very simple mechanical system, as primitive as a carb, basically. On the up-side this means it doesn't go wrong very much. On the downsides it means that if it goes out of tune and runs lean your iginition won't retard as there are no knock sensors and you'll hole a piston. To set it up properly also needs expensive CO analysing equipment.
is easier and cheaper to tune because you dont need to remap anything, its all done with an allen key
The allen key only sets the mixture. It doesn't map the ignition and fueling all over the rev-range. As you turn up the wick K-jet will not deliver the quality running of a good electronic mapping system.
The ABF 'only' makes 150bhp as it's running cooler cams, plus a cat. Take off the cat as it's not needed (in a Golf2), put in a pair of more aggressive KR cams, bolt up a tubular manifold, map it to suit and it'll look after itself much better than a K-Jet motor (i.e. save you killing the motor) and deliver more power across a wider rev-range.
K-jet is stupid, limited and well past it's sell-by date.
Still, at least it's cheap.
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kr and abf cams are virtually identical (you are thinking of the 9a cams), so basically its because of the cat, so does that lose 15bhp? nope.
you say the co analyser is expensive, but you can go to a garage and use theirs for 10 mins, compared to the cost of a custom remap on your system, which if i remember right, the initial maps usually cost circa £400? or you could also set it yourself at home by trial and error with an allen key, a bag and a zip tie. the fuel pressure is also adjustable via an allen key.
not to mention k-jet is more responsive as its mechanical, and mine (all 4 of them) have never slipped out of tune. im assuming your making the piston holing story up, i have never heard of that!
The allen key only sets the mixture. It doesn't map the ignition and fueling all over the rev-range. As you turn up the wick K-jet will not deliver the quality running of a good electronic mapping system.
yep, the only drawback of k-jet, but looking at the big picture your complaining about a tiny loss in power.
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how much wiring is involed in fitting an ABF? if ever i stack my ibiza and the engine survies id be tempted to put it into a mk2 :tongue:
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im assuming your making the piston holing story up
Errrrrr, no that was on a T25 GTI conversion, which ran very well until holing a piston at Guildford after Dubfreeze four years ago - this was because it ran lean.
I'll have to assume you're making the 165bhp up as well as the output specified for a KR is 139bhp.
Both engines can be tuned, and an ABF will respond just as well as a KR, with more to come from clever electronics, so try and compare apples with apples, rather than throwing in a banana.
There's bucketloads of tuning stuff available for the ABF, which will poke it further past the KR in torque and power.
There's also a lot more chance of finding a sound ABF complete with the electronics in a Toledo or Golf3, too. They're younger.
K-jet has been around for a long time, but you'll notice manufacturers haven't been using it since about '93 when emissions controls became tighter, limping on until about '95 as KE-Jet which is just plain nasty.
compared to the cost of a custom remap on your system, which if i remember right, the initial maps usually cost circa £400?
Funny, we've got a Megasquirt ECU here, so once you've bought that you can play with the maps as much as you want - it's open source and free. Start with a base map and work it up from there on the road with a laptop.
Like I said K-Jet is stupid. It's also for people who get The Fear when presented with a wiring diagram.
If anyone wants more information about ABFs and their management drop me a PM.....
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stick to the same argument mate, noone mentioned kr, its abf on kjet vs abf on the electronic management it comes with (i cant remember what its called). megasquirt is also a different argument. i dont get the fear over electronics either. i know the abf is better than the kr, thats why i put one in my golf :wink:
the 165 i quoted was the average most people get when they set their abf running on kjet up, i think the best out of a standard abf on kjet is 171bhp, FACT not made up.
so one car blowing its pistons means they all do it?
have you also noticed that emission friendly cars are outperformed by non emission friendly cars ?(like for like before you get pedantic!) thats why it was stopped being used, not because other systems were offering better performance. and who gives a flying f**k about the environment.
face it kjet is more performance oriented than these digifant variants.
as you said megasquirt is better than both , but thats not the argument you put forward :wink:
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Rant, snort, puff, growl
Errr ABFs run Motronic out of the box, not Digifant (fact, innit) and Motronic is better than Megasquirt, in many ways.
Anyway, there, there - you stick with your big flappy plate-meter in the way of the airflow. We'll go for nice free-flowing throttlebodies on Motronic.
K-Jet is out-moded and out-performed by standard ABF Motronic management. Adding a £40 Fleabay chip that tells the Motronic to ignore the emissions niceties at the top of the rev-range and make it slightly richer will give you a far more tractable motor further down the rev range and one that'll keep going up the rev-range after the K-Jet has run out of puff due to the large obstruction in the way of the airflow. It will also not drink as much fuel, which in a daily driver is a significant factor these days.
I'll have to get a dyno print from the ABF that's currently getting wired up about 3 metres away from me. Should be only a couple of weeks away, but then we can have a proper cock-waving competition.
All this ranting still hasn't put me off recommending an ABF running standard management to the original poster, although if I'm honest, as he's an Evo guy I'd recommend finding a Golf Syncro and playing with that, as he'll keep the 4WD goodness he knows from the Evo, but in a lighter, more compact vehicle.
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how many throttle bodies? if your talking itb's then kjet or motronic will be no good anyway.
you havent convinced me at all, kjet is great.
basically if your car is on kjet, run the abf on kjet, if its on digifant, run it on motronic (i did say i couldnt remember what its called!).
besides my dad could have yours any day of the week
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It's an 88E Golf GTI 8V. It'll be on Digifant, unless it's a real oddity.
To fit K-Jet on an ABF you'd need to change the fuel pump and source the metering head and all the fuel lines etc.
All that to get an inferior injection system. You also need to consider that the cone for the plate-meter provides the 'map' for the engine's fueling and is shaped for the specific engine - much like a carb you don't know when the fueling is right. Running the wrong cone for the size of engine won't improve running.
To fit an ABF with standard Motronic management you can re-use the Digifant pump and lines to the fuel rail, sort out the wiring that comes out of the donor car and away you go.
The Toledo plan outlined in my initial post wins, easily.
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It's an 88E Golf GTI 8V. It'll be on Digifant, unless it's a real oddity.
To fit K-Jet on an ABF you'd need to change the fuel pump and source the metering head and all the fuel lines etc.
All that to get a superior injection system. You also need to consider that the cone for the plate-meter provides the 'map' for the engine's fueling and is shaped for the specific engine - much like a carb you don't know when the fueling is right. Running the wrong cone for the size of engine won't improve running.
To fit an ABF with standard Motronic management you can re-use the Digifant pump and lines to the fuel rail, sort out the wiring that comes out of the donor car and away you go.
The Toledo plan outlined in my initial post wins, easily.
indeed it does, but only because its a digi to start with, unfortunately your kjet is crap statement is not so accurate. :afro:
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interesting read to say the least. learnt a few things from this :)
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unfortunately your kjet is crap statement is not so accurate.
Sorry, but aside from dicking about with my words, I don't think you've actually given any description or valid argument that demonstrates how K-Jet is superior to Motronic.
I'm waiting for it.....
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of course i have, read through what i said in the last posts
in summary
kjet is more responsive on the throttle
kjet is simpler and cheaper to setup
kjet is just as fuel efficient
kjet has been proven up to 200bhp, at which point your gonna want to turbo or throttle body the engine anyway
kjet is great out the box, you dont need chips to make it work properly
the only drawback i can see is as you said the fuel map is compromised, but in the real world this is a tiny difference.
anyway im not proving its better, im proving its not 'crap' as you have said, but in my opinion it is better.
look at the kjet 8v vs digifant 8v
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my digi kains k-jet everytime. just me tho, other ks may do me but not in a hurry