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Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: Faraz on 11 May 2008, 10:14
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Hello All,
Got a bit of an issue with my 8v. I did an oil change yesterday, along with a flush of the oil system and used a genuine VAG filter with the Fuchs 10w40 semi from GSF hoping that this would cure the 1 noisy tappet I have. Anyway, I think i may have overfilled the oil somewhat and when I turned on the engine, all the tappets were incredibly noisy. What could I have done to cause this?
I was thinking that maybe I have knackered the oil pump by overfilling it, but took the sump off and took the pump off and it seems to be ok, nothing clogging it etc.. and it moves freely? could I have done something more serious like blown a seal or something preventing the oil from getting to the tappets? Has anyone else experienced tappets that get even noisier after an oil change and if so what is the solution?
Thanks in advance
Faraz
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How long did you leave the oil draining and how long did you start it up for when you noticed new noise? How much oil did you put it then?
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If you put oil flush through it, did you drive it like this or just let it run for the ten minutes as per instructions? If you use oil flush, it actually breaks down the oil giving virtually no protection at all, and can cause all kinds of damage.
On a lighter note, the oil flush may have just done its job and the tappets have collapsed due to the oil draining out of them. Give the engine time to come up to temp and hopefully you will find that the tappets will 'pump up' again. :smiley:
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I drained it out for a good 10 minutes, and then stuck 5 litres of oil in and switched on. I left it running for about 5 minutes to see if the noise would go away but it didnt. Thats when i checked the oil level and it was at about half an inch higher up than the max level. Im hoping it hasnt done anything too serious, but could the extra oil cause the oil pump to fail?
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If you put oil flush through it, did you drive it like this or just let it run for the ten minutes as per instructions? If you use oil flush, it actually breaks down the oil giving virtually no protection at all, and can cause all kinds of damage.
On a lighter note, the oil flush may have just done its job and the tappets have collapsed due to the oil draining out of them. Give the engine time to come up to temp and hopefully you will find that the tappets will 'pump up' again. :smiley:
No i did as per instructions, fast idled for 15 minutes and then drained it out. I left the engine for a few minutes but still sounded like a sewing machine. I've ordered a new oil pump from GSF and will fit that in the next few days just to be sure, and then see what happens. How long should the tappets take to 'pump up'? I always imagined it should only take a few seconds?? Also, in case I have to get tappets as well, is GSF ok to use for this, or should I get genuine VAG? Thanks
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Tappets should not take long at all, but can take up to 15 minutes. I hardly doubt the oil pump has been affected but if in doubt, they are cheap enough to replace anyway, so you are doing the right thing.
To verify the oil pump, you could remove the oil filter and very gently cut it open near its base, making sure you do not drop any iron filings inside. Remove the element, cut it open and unfold it so that it looks like a consatina. Then inspect in th fold for metal or iron filings. if you see 'white' metal that is not affected by a maganet, then you have a bearing(s) that may have had something go through it. if you have lumps of ferrous metal, (iron, that is attracted to a magnet) or iron filings, then yes, you may have an oil pump issue.
If everything is ok, and you have a new pump and the tappetes are still noisy, then you can buy a new set of tappets quite reasonably from GSF. Bang these in and you should be sorted. I have GSF tappets in my G60 and they are perfectly ok. :smiley:
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Tappets should not take long at all, but can take up to 15 minutes. I hardly doubt the oil pump has been affected but if in doubt, they are cheap enough to replace anyway, so you are doing the right thing.
To verify the oil pump, you could remove the oil filter and very gently cut it open near its base, making sure you do not drop any iron filings inside. Remove the element, cut it open and unfold it so that it looks like a consatina. Then inspect in th fold for metal or iron filings. if you see 'white' metal that is not affected by a maganet, then you have a bearing(s) that may have had something go through it. if you have lumps of ferrous metal, (iron, that is attracted to a magnet) or iron filings, then yes, you may have an oil pump issue.
If everything is ok, and you have a new pump and the tappetes are still noisy, then you can buy a new set of tappets quite reasonably from GSF. Bang these in and you should be sorted. I have GSF tappets in my G60 and they are perfectly ok. :smiley:
Thanks for the advice mate :smiley: I think oil pump is my next port of call, and if no joy then I will go for a set of tappets from GSF. From what i can tell from the Haynes manual the procedure seems fairly straightforward, can you confirm, does the cambelt need to be removed completely? or can it just be taken off the cam pulley? Also, there is no mention of soaking the tappets in oil before fitting in the Haynes manual but from my searches this seems to be done, what is your view on this? Thanks Again.
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my daily had noisey tappets when i bought it, got it flushed and oil changed, which made them MUCH noisier! it was only when i got the tappets replaced did it quieten down.
my money is on this:
On a lighter note, the oil flush may have just done its job and the tappets have collapsed due to the oil draining out of them.
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You do not need to soak tappets in oil, but you don't put them in dry either. Give them a good coat of oil, then fit them. Never remove tappets from the head with a magnet. You will polarize the ball valve inside the tappet and prevent it from doing its job which is forming a hydraulic lock whilst under load.
On removing the cam belt, expose the cam belt tensioner and release the tension. Then remove the belt from the cam belt pulley. When refitting, go by the haynes manual for pulley set up. If you are carefull, you may not need to adjust anything, but it is always best to check the various alignment marks before re-assembly. On a further note, prior to disturbing the cam belt, do a quick check on how the various pulley marks line up as you may find the distributor pulley will be out of alignment, and the distributor adjusted accordingly. This check will save you all sorts of problems when you do everything by the book, only to find the car will not start due to the distributor being out of time, due to the last person to do it being a lazy git and cutting corners. :wink:
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sounds like u left it ticking over at idle for abit? my old driver used to tap its tappity ass off. give it some right foot into the rev limit are sorted that for about 5 minutes. :grin:
suppose the pumps get older they need more revs to get pressure and the tappets they just give up the ghost eventually i guess
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filling the oil up uses 4.5 litres.
I did an oil change with engine flush and my tappes were quiet. Now they started tappeting again though.
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You lose nothing by using high revs to try to 'pump up' the tappets. Its usual practice but don't destroy the rest of the engine by persuing this avenue if it does not work within a couple of minutes. Also wait till the engine is warmed through.
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good point. My engine was at about 50C when i did all this.
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sounds like u left it ticking over at idle for abit? my old driver used to tap its tappity ass off. give it some right foot into the rev limit are sorted that for about 5 minutes. :grin:
suppose the pumps get older they need more revs to get pressure and the tappets they just give up the ghost eventually i guess
Yeah i didnt dare rev it up, it was painful to listen to! Assuming I fit the new oil pump, refill it and it still sounds tappety, is it safe to drive it like that? (in the hope that the drive might help the tappets 'pump up' again.) Or should I just keep it parked until I get the tappets ordered?
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You lose nothing by using high revs to try to 'pump up' the tappets. Its usual practice but don't destroy the rest of the engine by persuing this avenue if it does not work within a couple of minutes. Also wait till the engine is warmed through.
Thanks for that mate, ignore my last post!
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when i fired up my project for the first (and only) time, after being stored for 2 years, the noise was terrible!
given 15 minutes it was purring like a kitten.
so there is hope
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when i fired up my project for the first (and only) time, after being stored for 2 years, the noise was terrible!
given 15 minutes it was purring like a kitten.
so there is hope
I kinda wish I'd given the tappets a few more minutes before taking the sump off now! The pump may well be fine, but I guess its cheap enough and saves me having to replace it when it fails for real. Heres hoping I wont need to fork out for tappets after all! Are GSF generally quick when it comes to delivering these parts? I really dont want to have to rely on the family workhorse mondeo for too long, im already getting GTi withdrawal symptoms after only 2 days.
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They send stuff to me in Spain usually within five days or so.
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same/next day 99% of the time
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GSF are next working day providing you've ordered before the afternoon
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plot thickens...
got the bits today (pretty damn quick) and fitted the new pump. Filled it up with oil and switched on, but yet still sounds like sh1t. Not only that, but now the oil light on the dash is flashing continuously which it wasnt doing with the old pump, so what could the problem be?
To add to all this, now the idle is hunting around and stalling when it was solid as a rock before. Im really starting to get annoyed with it, what should I be looking at doing next? It seems like the pump isnt working at all as the light is flashing all the time!
Please help!
Faraz
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Last oil change my daily had the same problem with the oil light, it just would not come up to pressure.
the mechanic unscrewed the oil filter slightly to release some pressure, which helped get the oil up to the head quicker. the other way to do it is to rev the t!ts off it, but thats likely to do more harm than good.
just make sure you kep the oil topped up if you go unscrewing the filter!
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IF you changed the oil pump did u make sure to prime it first by putting it in fresh oil and manually turning it so it draws oil up, through, and out the top. As when i put mine in i forgot to do this, which made it worse than when i started. so i had to pull it out again. run perfectly after priming it though.
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I usually use vaseline to fill up a new oil pump. Fill up the gears with the stuff. As the gears rotate, more of a 'suck' is produced as it is obviously thicker than oil. If the pump is not primed, then you are using air to try and suck up oil rather than grease.
Vaseline is a petroleum jelly and will not harm the engine in any way. As it is petroleum based, it will desolve into the oil.
Also, before you fit the oil filter, prime that too by filling it with engine oil.
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Thanks for the info guys, I used chris's tip and unscrewed the oil filter to relieve pressure and then switched the engine on. Despite the oily mess, it seemed to do the trick and I now have oil pressure back again! Aside from that though, I still have the tappets issue to address.
I got a quote from both VW and a local VW specialist, but couldnt believe the difference in price. VW want £450 to do the job, and the specialist only wants £180! However, cash is a bit tight at the moment so im considering just getting the tappets from GSF for about £70 and doing it myself over the weekend.
Apart from tappets and a new rocker cover gasket, do i need anything else to do the job such as special tools etc?? Also, how long should I expect the job to take?
Thanks Again
Faraz
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Tappets from start to finish should not take more than a couple of hours, but this depends on how au fait you are with the car and also if you have any cam timing issues.
But first, whilst you have the engine running, take it up to temp, then rev the engine hard four or five times. If no joy, take it to engine cut out revs for a couple of seconds. If still no joy, replace tappets.
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Thanks mate, i'll give that a try before I fork out for tappets. Will I need a timing light to set the timing up, or will it just be a case of marking the cam pulley before I do the job, and putting it all back together in the same position?
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If it goes back together as it came apart, then theorically, the ignition would not need to be retimed, although that is never the case. It should start though at least.
What I was talking about was the cam timing, (or set up). If the cam position is miles out, then worse case scenario is a damaged engine with valves hitting pistons. But if only a tooth or so out on the cam belt and pulley, then power degradation is all you will have. Go by the book and you won't go too far wrong.
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Hi Guys,
Just an update...
I had a go at fitting the tappets this morning, marked the cam belt in relation to the sprocket and also the sprocket in relation to the head, took the cam out changed the tappets and put it all back together again (seemingly in the correct place). Fired her up and it was absolutely perfect, purring like a kitten, so job done I thought!
HOWEVER, took it for a spin and now when I put my foot down its making a horrible rattle, like someone shaking a tin can with a bolt in it. It doesnt do this revving at idle, it only happens under load and the noise goes away completely at wide open throttle. Could this just be the timing needs setting up??
My first thought was that it is pinking, but then I thought the digi had a knock sensor so wasnt sure it could be that. Could it be more serious like bottom end on the way out or something!? Or is it just that I need to get the Cam timing and Ignition timing set properly??
Please help guys, and thanks.
Faraz
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have you got any loss of power?
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The knock sensor will not prevent pinking if the ignition timing is miles out. It will only retard the ignition from its set point, wherever it is set to.
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The knock sensor will not prevent pinking if the ignition timing is miles out. It will only retard the ignition from its set point, wherever it is set to.
this must mean that my timing is still out, as with a new knock sensor it still pinks under load when its hot... although saying that the head is a bit coked up :huh:
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This is driving me nuts now, now its not starting at all! flooded the engine yesterday with fuel, so let it dry out overnight and tried again with new plugs, still no joy. So thought I'd check the timing again. I read in the haynes manual that the centrepunch mark needs to be level with the cam cover flange, but there is also OT stamped on the pulley, what is this mark for? should it line up with the OT printed on the upper cover mounting? Because mine doesnt!?
Cheers
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:smiley: It lives!! But to be honest I think I'm incredibly lucky, I had the cam timing out by quite a long way apparently, dont quite know how it happened but thankfully I didnt do any damage to the head. :shocked:
To take care of the flooded engine, I took the fuse out for the pump and turned it over to burn away the excess and then plugged it back in again and she fired up first prod. Unfortunately I dont have a timing light, so i adjusted the timing by ear. It doesnt seem to pink anymore, but i'll be keeping a 13mm spanner with me just in case. Am I likely to do any serious damage by adjusting the ignition timing this way? Or should I get it to a garage ASAP so they can get the timing light hooked up to it?
Many Thanks for all your replies over the last couple of weeks! :wink:
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glad you got it sorted. Feels good doesn't it?
Ignition timing won't cause any damage in most cases, but get it done ASAP. It will save your fuel. :smiley:
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Cheers Mate, Feels great to have it back! It makes driving to work so much more enjoyable, considering I cant stand my job most days, the B-road drive to and fro helps break up the day! Just need to book it in with a local Digifant legend who can set it up perfectly for me, and it'll be sorted! :cool:
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Happy ending to a sad story. Timings easy when you know how :)