GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk3 => Topic started by: bunter on 30 July 2007, 21:22
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ok ive had my GTI 16v a few weeks now and was told of a running fault when i bought it from the previous owner. ive had no problems with it until the last few days when 3 times now the engine has cut out when decelerating for a junction. when the engine dies the revs hit zero and the car will not restart for 10-15 mins. the other odd thing i have noticed is that the temp guage never gets above half way even when we went to london the other week and was sat in traffice for an hour.
could this be temp related? possibly the thermostat?
sorry for being a pain but most of my knowledge is with mk2`s!
thanks. chris
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Much the same happened with my wifes 8v GTI. Turned out to be the ECU relay which a replacement from VW cost about £10. Some poeple also say that fuel pump relays are prone to failure.
ECU relay number 30 and fuel pump relay number 67 (er.. I think)!
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Much the same happened with my wifes 8v GTI. Turned out to be the ECU relay which a replacement from VW cost about £10. Some poeple also say that fuel pump relays are prone to failure.
ECU relay number 30 and fuel pump relay number 67 (er.. I think)!
funnily enough i did think of the fuel pump after probs on one of my old mk2`s but when i switch the ignition on i can hear the pump fire up which is good. il give the ecu relay a go, cant go wrong at a tenner! thank you for the info ;)
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Yeh Bunter do the relays thing but also clean the throttle body, this helped when this used to happen to mine, but later found out i had a corroded engine speed sensor which eventually needed replacing.
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nice one, will give that a go too, cant hurt! thanks for the reply :)
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I don't think the temp gauge is part of this problem, coz my temp gauge goes straight up to 90 within minutes of starting the car and (touch wood) I not had any running problems. But like you say it doesn't move at all stood in traffic or driving round but the fans still kick in so I wouldn't be that worried about that
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definately relays. I'd take the throttle body off and clean it anyway because the PCVs always seem to die and oil gets through the breather hosesand into the throttle body then inlet manifold then onto the inlet valves in the head
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I would check all the vac hoses. I had this problem and it was the case of a split vac hose
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so far ive replaced the fuel pump relay with a brand new one which hasnt cured the problem. have just taken out the ecu relay (30) and opened it up to find some dodgy soldering on the board so will sort that in the morning and give it a try.
if that doesnt cure the problem il be cleaning the throttle body i think, then the crank sensor!
pain in the arse at the moment, im getting really embarrassed pulling up to a junction only for the car to die! then i just have to the hazards on and look like a total twit :(
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Im sure if there is a fault with the crank senser it would throw up a code....have you had it on VAGcom?
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no i havent had it VAGcom yet, im very reluctant to pay for that until i have tried the simple things like both relays and throttlebody etc. going to also have a good look at all hoses etc in the daylight tommorrow :)
also after reading a few threads about this im not sure if VAGcom picks up the crank sensor fault?
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ok tried a few things this morning. tried to resolder the ecu relay which had dodgy soldering on and also de-carboned the throttle body and checked for possible air leaks. took the car for a test run surprise surprise when it was up to temperature it cut out. was a simple test run of about half a maile and it managed to take me 20 mins!
suppose next up will be to buy a brand new ecu relay from vw and see if that makes any difference!
does anyone know if there is any way to check the crank sensor to make sure its working correctly?
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just downloaded vag-com and also bought an obd cable from ebay so thats another avenue im exploring too :)
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i had the exact same problem on my mk3 gti 16v and it was the speed sensor/crank sensor. It would cut out on me on deceleration and one it had cut out it wouldnt start for about ten minutes. Then it would run for about 5 mins and cut out again first deceleration. Took it to dubsport they put it on vagcom and it showed the speed sensor had failed. They put a genuine vw sensor on and its been fine since (touch wood). Mine got to the stage where it cut out one time and i couldnt get it restarted at all i had to have it towed to dubsport.
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Bunter: where did you download vagcom from. Its 235 pound to download off the vagcom site
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ive just got to that stage, i got the car home yesterday after it cutting out twice on the test run after cleaning the TB and now it wont start at all! im hoping once i get vag-com hooked up il find out if it is the crank sensor or not. to be honest ive lost all faith in this car now and will be putting it up for sale as soon as its fixed, a real shame as i was really happy when i got it and it was a nice car to drive! guess il go for either a mk1 gti or a mk4 gti 1.8t, wel see...
fish6634 i downloaded vag-com from bit torrent although i understand you can download a shareware copy direct from www.ross-tech.com but youl have to buy a cable to run from your pc to your car.
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I had the same problem as you bunter, i had it on VAGCOM and it showed the codes for both the crank sensor and cam sensor, i took it to a local VW speciliast who basically stripped it down it turned out to be a Key gear?? that had become damaged which was making the car start irregulary which in result didnt let me actually start the car, the crank sensor and this gear has been changed.
The car now runs properly as im getting 37mpg on a motorway run.
However it did cost me £450 to repair (including a new cam belt)
Dan
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im still waiting for the cable i ordered from ebay to come but once it does im pretty sure its going to say the crank sensors gone. the crank sensor was reaplaced on the car by the previous owner 3 years at a huge cost at his local vw stealership. just goes to show how crap vw parts and vw themselves are getting. seems theyre no longer reliable as they claim, i personally dont think much of them anymore, certainly not the reliability of cars after 1991 :(
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ok well, after finally getting my vag-com obd cable through in the post yesterday, ive finally been able to hook my laptop up and diagnose the fault on my car. turns out its a dodgy engine speed sensor, which is good news as i know whats wrong with it now but bad news is that its gonna cost me 40 notes to replace.
anyway heres the error i got from vag-com:
00513 - engine speed sensor (G28)
27-10 - implausible signal - intermittant
hope anyone else with the same problem goes down the route of getting hold of vag-com and a cable as its saved me the £75 vw want just to do the same thing :)
bunter
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Get this sorted bunter and then try to enjoy the car before you make the decision to sell it, once you iron out the niggles it can actually be a very good car.
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yeah i had the same prob changed the relays and was still doin it pluged it up and found out it was the crank shaft sensor
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so is this engine speed sensor the crank sensor then? ive heard so many names for the same sensor im getting all confused!! :P
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Yup one and the same.
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thanks :)
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This sorted my problem bunter, will you keep us updated, as this could be something that should be stickied i think to go along with the textbook Relay issues....
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well i replaced the crank sensor a month ago finally and the car seemed sorted out and was driving fine....for about 3 hours!!! i thought as the car was running well id take her and get her cleaned, so while i was waiting in the car wash the engine died and would not restart. i had the embarrassment of having some guys help push me into a spare parking space and then having the AA out who couldnt fix it and eventually towed me home.
the car has sat there since that day and has been gathering dust as i lost my job and was short on cashuntil today. i got my ass to Cooks VW in Peterboroughto order an ECU relay which is about the only part on the list of "to do`s" i hadnt done or had been done by the previous owner. to my amazement for such a common fault/part they had absolutely none in stock and i have to wait til saturday morning to pick it up.
anyway, i just thought id update this thread and let you all know how its going :)
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changed the ecu relay (30) this morning and the car still ownt start, next up the temp sensors :)
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Bunter
Was the Ross Tech software easy to use? I have ordered up my cable but not sure which version of VAG-COM to download. Any ideas?
Martin
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I had a similar problem with my P reg Mk3 8v anniversary.
You would drive along for 10 mins then it would die on you, wait 10 mins and would generally die again. Sent it to vw and they had it a week and couldnt tell me what was wrong, but i dont trust the one near me anyway.
I had the crank sensor changed by a 'friend' and he also said i had an earthing problem to from the ecu to it. Didnt seem to be the case. It did run, but not like before. it also hit a rev limiter at 5000 rpm. Very strange. So went to an auto electrician and he replaced the hall sender sensor on the distributor.
Runs betterthan before now, havent had any problems since
:smiley:
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Bunter
Was the Ross Tech software easy to use? I have ordered up my cable but not sure which version of VAG-COM to download. Any ideas?
Martin
yes it was very easy to use. i use the 409-1 i think it is and have no problems with it.
admc6 - i always thought the hall sender sensor was the same as the crank position sensor?
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If the car dies after 10 minutes it sounds like the vac hose from the ECU to the inlet manifold sucking itself closed, this will cut the engine out. Go on ebay and get yourself a metre of 4mm silicone hose
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4MM-ID-QUALITY-RED-SILICONE-VACUUM-HOSE-TUBING-1-METRE_W0QQitemZ290170998197QQihZ019QQcategoryZ72205QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
A metre is enough to replace all 3 hoses on a mk3 16v ABF engine. If you take off the rain scuttle panel in front of the windscreen you'll see where the hose goes from the ECU to the inlet manifold and chances are it'll be soft, weak and crispy. Use the shortest route for the new hose through the bung by the ECU. You don't need to clip the hoses on either, just push on. The other vac hose to replace is from the inlet manifold to the fuel pressure regulator valve. The third is under the PCV valve which will need changing too.
That's the most common fault on them. After that i'd clean the throttle body. Then i'd clean the ISV too. Another one to check is the switch on the throttle body where the accelerator stops. Spray the small switch with WD40 and make sure it moves in and out freely. If you have an induction kit (or not sometimes) then make sure that any parts of the throttle body that have vac hose ports not in use are blocked up. If you have an induction kit then sometimes where the hose from the throttle body to the airbox used to be, the hose is pulled off and the throttle body is not blocked off causing a massive air leak and poor running. VAG COM will not show faults with relays so i'd change the ECU and fuel pump relays too. VAG COM will however show faults with the crank speed sensor so a quick scan will reveal whether or not it needs replacing. VAG COM will also show faults on the coolant temp sensor too which can fail. It's worth replacing though because VAG COM sometimes doesn't pick up faults with them. They might only be broke when reading between certain temperature tolerances. The normal fault is when the engine is hot and the temp sensor is telling the engine it's actually cold. The ECU will push more fuel in because it thinks it's cold which causes over fuelling and poor running. On a mk3 of this age it really needs a hardcore service..
Coolant flushed and topped up with pink ready mixed (NOT WATER!)
Oil flushed and changed
Oil filter changed
Fuel filter changed
Spark plugs changed
Air filter changed (or cleaned if a performance one)
Ignition leads changed
Dizzy cap and rotor arm changed
Coil changed
If your car isn't starting, it's highly unlikely to be the temp sensor causing this. My bets are on the ECU vac hose or an elctric problem with the dizzy/coil/ht leads/rotor arm
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thanks for the reply, i have just ordered that tubing and will give it a go at the weekend.
thanks. bunter
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A buddy of mines got a mk3 GTi 16v and had the same problem, would run for something like 10mins then suddenly cut out and wouldn’t start for another 20-30mins or so!! He changed the crank sensor twice with cheep parts to no joy then he changed for a third time with a good quality official part from the dealers cost him about £160 but he’s had no problems since. That was about 6 months ago!!
Part No: 037 906 433 A
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Next step is definately VAG COM after this and it's not as expensive as you think! All you need is a laptop that hasn't got windows vista on it...
This cable..
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/USB-KKL-Vag-Com-Cable-Interface-VW-Audi-Scanner-VAG-COM_W0QQitemZ140168050054QQihZ004QQcategoryZ30921QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Cheapest UK one I could see.
Then download this software (you can check fault codes on shareware so you don't need to pay to have it registered)...
http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/download/archives.html
You want the one at the bottom left, "for MODERN SERIAL interfaces"
Seriously worth doing it mate, it can diasgnose engine faults, ABS faults etc etc and will pay for itself in the end
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have had a little play with mine this morning and found that no fuel is getting through to the engine, the plugs are bone dry atfer cranking it over for a good minute :)
might be some light at the end of the tunnel yet......
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still no luck here so far!!
done so far:
Spark Plugs
Leads
Dizzy Cap
Rotor Arm
Coil
ECU Relay
Fuel Pump Relay
Crankshaft Speed Sensor
Vacuum Hoses
Cleaned Throttle Body
ECU Checked
its been suggested it could be the MAF so il be looking into getting a replacement next. hopefully that will solve the problem of the fuel not getting into the cylinders. was also thinking about the oil pressure switch, do the 16vs have one and where is it located? :)
just read in the haynes manual that the ABF engines have 2 knock sensors?? i have replaced the one under the engine mount at the front but it says there is another one located under spark plus no1 on the front of the engine somewhere??? :s
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Is VAG Com still showing the fault with the sensor?
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yes it is but only because the engines not running, as this fault shows until the engine starts, which mine doesnt :(
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If you've replaced the crank sensor but still get the fault then it's a timing issue
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If you've replaced the crank sensor but still get the fault then it's a timing issue
but the crankshaft sensor fault shows up on vag-com when the engine isnt running as standard, unless i can get it running i cant be certain its that. timing does sound about right though seeing as the spark is there but no fuel into the cylinder, which brings me to the oil pressure switch, could that possibly be the problem?
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If the timing was out it would give you the crank sensor fault. If the timing was out it would still (if not at the right time) add fuel via the injectors. Have you checked out the fuel pressure reulator? Definately get the timing checked though. Have you recently had the cambelt done?
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Have you recently had the cambelt done?
Bet your tired of asking that question, ay Pete? :smiley:
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Indeed, It's going to be the same problem as yours ;)
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haha youl be an expert on diagnosing cut-out syndrome on mk3`s!! could be a profitable business judging by how many are affected by it ;)
the cambelt hasnt been done recently, more like 4k ago if my memory serves me correct. as for the fuel pressure regulator, i havent checked this yet but il get out the haynes manual tonight and have a look through for it as i have no idea where it is or how to test that
thanks for all the replies btw!! :)
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It's the round shiny thing below the second ignition lead. There's a small 4mm vac hose coming from the left of the inlet manifold next to the throttle body going to it. It's held in with a big U clip. Has the car been running this bad since the cambelt was done 4k ago? It sounds like the car has got worse and just died? If it's only just stopped cranking over i'd double check that vac hose from the back of the inlet manifold to the ECU again
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the car was fine for ages after the cambelt was done, its only recently its got bad and now its at the point where it wont start. i replaced the ecu vac hose the other day with the red stuff from ebay so it should be perfect. il defo check into the fuel pressure regulator though, sounds promising :)
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You didn't use any clips did you? You don't need to use any, if you do it can tear through when you tighten them. You should have enough red vac hose left over to do the bit from the inlet manifold to the fuel pressure regulator.
Just a quick one.. pull down the back seats and take the boot carpet out, switch the ignition on (but not start the engine) and see if you can hear the fuel pump prime for a few seconds
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(http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/32192/2000358031280024087_rs.jpg)
Dunno whether this pic helps you but it shows all 3 vac hoses. Number one is from the ECU to the inlet manifold. The pic shows the shortened route you can use (theres a bung you can take out to the left of the coil which it can go through). If you used the original route then cut it down to the shortened route and use the bit you chopped off to replace number two which is the small vac hose from the inlet manifold to the fuel pressure regulator (the green circle on pic). You should then have enough red vac line left over to replace the third vac hose (number three) which goes to the PCV valve (positive crankcase ventilation valve)