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Model specific boards => Golf mk4 => Golf mk4 TDI => Topic started by: immortalkhalsa on 25 June 2007, 00:34
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Hi All,
this is my first post here and i am in need of some advice. i was driving on the M4 yesterday night and was doing about 120 mph when there was a sudden gush of thick white smoke which covered all 3 lanes and i immideatly started to loose power. the smoke was continuous and i then pulled into the hard sholder immediatly and got taken home by RAC. :cry:
the RAC bloke told me that he could guarantee that my TURBO had gone by the description i gave him of what happened and that my turbo would ned to be replaced. he didnt really check but he said he was 100% sure even without haveing a look.
car - Golf MK4 TDI (110 bhp, 5 speed)
Year - 1998
current milage - 94,000
1 - I was wondering what your thoughts are on what may be the problem?
2 - how much can i get a turbo for, and where from?
3 - how much is my car worth at the moment? (just wondering if it is worth getting it repaired)
many thanks for all your help, any advice most welcome.
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I would check for a blown hose first. Turbo is the last thing I'd right-off. Its a resiliant little bugger.
The turbo on our model is part of the exhaust manifold so you'd be looking at quite an expensive lump if it did need changing.
One of the pressure hoses has probably blown off around the intercooler area.
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Oh and I'd estimate the value around the 3 to 3.5K mark (without actually checking).
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i'm with richandhazel i think a fair few of use have had a pipe go at one point and its pretty much what you've described.
if you can get the car raised up and check all the pipe work, failing that wait till the engine is cold and try and follow the pipes with your hand, and inspect the joins.
i think the connection clips on your yeah are jubilee clips so odds are the pipes just come out of it.
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thanks soooo much for both of your responses guys. How much of a task is it to check the pressure hoses for a non-mechanic like myself? also what will i need to look out for in a damaged pressure hose?
what are the costs for this? huge £?
should i just give up and take it to the mechanic?
any help is much appreciated...keep your comments coming.
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get a torch and look for any slight tears, rips in the pipes. also check that the connections are secure and tighten them if need be or replace with new clips.
you should be able to do it yourself, make sure the engine is cold though! don't think new hoses are that expensive; possibly sub £50 for the main pipes and less again for the smaller ones but don't quoteme on that lol
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are there any service manuals i can download for my model to tell me where the pressure hoses are? i want to give this a go myself. fingers crossed.
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have a search for 'Online Bentley Manaul' should be some floating around the net. otherwise try and pick up a cheap copy of the Haynes manual
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you should be able to follow the hose down from the turbo, and to the inter cooler, which looks like a radiator, not sure how easy it is to then follow the hose from the inter cooler and back is though.
if you're getting massive amounts of white smoke, i'd guess the hose has come loose, at which point its either a new clip or new pipe. i replaced one on mine for £25 and the clips were about 50p the hoes vary in price depending on the size though.
if you can't find the fault then get someone to look at it. if you've up for it, get her on axel stands and get the front bumper off as that should then allow you to see the whole turbo inter cooler system.
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many thanks ridge. sounds like you did the same thing, i will try to give this ago over in the next few days.
really stupid question but how do i get the car on axel stands.
i know i have a jack at home (its my dads, never used it)
i think i have the axel stands (also my dads), are those triangle looking things right? i think i have 2 of those......how many do i need?
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many thanks ridge. sounds like you did the same thing
on mine the bit which sticks out and rest against the clip had worn down the the clip didn't hold it in properly, so replaced the hose.
i bought a trolley jack from argos about £30 that came with a 2 tonne jack, axle stands and chocks
all you do is jack it up as normal, and then place the stands next to the jack, slowly lower the jack and the stand takes its place, do the same on the other side.
you'll need 2 axle stands which look like a camera tripod.
this raises the car enough for you to crawl under and have a good look.
it all depends on how confident you are if you've got basic diy skills then getting it jacked and the sump splash cover off is straight forward, that will then allow you to inspect the inter cooler from underneath.
taking the bumper off is literally 6 screws and 6 bolts, but again details on your confidence.
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ridge - your an absolute star. i will give this a go then and see what happens. i gues there is still hope that my turbo isnt blown. maybe i will take some pics or vid clips and post them up for you guys to give me your opinions.
did your car have the same symptoms when your clips came off? loss of revs, white smoke etc etc?
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did your car have the same symptoms when your clips came off? loss of revs, white smoke etc etc?
the symptom i had was basically no power over 2000 and then it would be very noisy and produce white smoke, the white smoke apparently is caused from the wrong air fuel mixture.
in yours you'll probably have 'power' till about 1500 due to a different turbo which whilst its enough to limp home, you don't want to run the risk of having something sucked up in the inter cooler / turbo etc
i will give this a go then and see what happens.
good man, if you can fix it yourself do it, that way if it happens again you can fix it and it saves you a few quid!
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so is the decision by everyone unanamous.....the turbo shouldnt be blown? any other thoughts out there?
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i think Richandhazel & Ridge are right; your car wouldn't have been very drivable if your turbo had blown as it would have caused severe internal damage.
smart money is on a blown pipe :smiley:
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Ryso, thanks for the re-assurance...i really hope you guys are right. but to be fair i wouldnt know if my car is drivable or not as i stopped immediatly after the continuous gush of smoke and have not driven it since it happened on saturday.
it starts up just fine, but still smokes up like crazy. just wondering why the RAC man said he was 100% sure it was the turbo gone (he also said he use to be a VW technician)???????. he touched the insdie of the exhaust and said that the black oil was a sign that the turbo had gone too?
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any other opinions out there before i start the job?
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any other opinions out there before i start the job?
there is a chance the RAC man could be right, but i'd still go with the pipe.
plus checking the pipes yourself isn't going to cost anything, and you'll be able to confirm what the problem is which will have some £ as a garage will probably charge you to just look at it
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so was it the pipe then???? :undecided:
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thanks for all the input. still havnt check it though as i work a 9-5 so have not had the opportunity to check. i am planning to look at it on sunday with some luck!
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ok but don't forget to let us know how u go on :wink:
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hi all, what a pain in the ass today is. i am al ready to start on the venture today with the car but it is pissing down and i dont want to lie in a puddle under the car. how annoying!
just wondering guys but how long do you think the job is, to get the car on axle stands, get the bumper off and get a look at the hoses? im just trying to understand if i might be able to get it done during the week one evening after work?
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err in terms of jacking it up 10 mins tops, to get the bumper off about 25 mins being careful.
you might need to remove the belly pan which is 10 mins tops.
so all in all i'd guess about 1 1/2 to 2 hours max
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hi guys, i had a little looksie today and report back for some further guidence. what i noticed today was loads of oil which had leaked and i took some pictures of where it leaked frpm and a few pipes which were also covered with alot of oil. the problem i had was once i got under the car i really did not know what pipe was the hose you are all talking about and where i should be looking. (i dont know where the turbo actually is, sorry guys)
i am hoping you could point out for the pics what i need to check. also if the turbo was blown/gone would the car start etc? i will post the pics up later tonight after i can figure out how to get them on the site??????
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this pic show the oil that leaked....what could cause this, is it linked to the grey smoke?
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5915319
this pic is where the oil is dripping from (top left of picture) its on the drivers side. whats the white platic box?
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5915317
this is a closer pic of the above
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5915316
this is a pic of when i was under the car just to show you guys what i was looking at. maybe you could explain what these parts are? are they important part of the elimination? just to let you know alot of these pipes in the centre had a fair amount of oil on them
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5915315
another angle of the above.
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5915315
and another - its a little better...the oil does not seem right?
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5915313
another pic of where the major oil drip is
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5915312
please help guys, am really counting on you....once the car was on the axel stand i was like what now...i can see an oil leak but wheres the turbo?
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Hmmmmm, none of those pictures are really helping. The air conditioning compressor pipes have some oil on them that has dripped from higher up, and the same with the intercooler pipe, but no more than is on mine really.
You need to get at the turbo and that is part of the exhaust manifold. On the 110 model AHF the turbo forms part of the exhaust manifold, its not seperate.
If you look up at the os drive shaft, where it connects to the gearbox there is a shield around the inner CV joint. Above that is the turbo.
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apologies for the poor pictures, its hard to take a pic so close up whilst im on the ground. i am still concerned about the oil dripping?
as for the turbo, is it quite further back, ruffly under the drivers and passengers seats?...some kind of laymen indication would be great. maybe somene could kndly point it out in the picture as in save it and doodle on the pic and post it back up? i have a haynes manual but it doesnt tell me where it is. once i have located it i should be on a better route.
i am hoping to get some reponses and get back under the car today.
thanks very much for everyones responses, much appreciated.
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its hard to say from those pics, bit if looks like the majority of the oil is coming from the oil filter area. hard to be 100% sure on that as i've only really seen the filter from above.
when it comes to the inter cooler and connection pipe work the haynes is pretty poor.
regarding the turbo, if you take the engine cover off (the bit with tdi on) its will be in the top left hand corner (closest to drivers side) this should have a pipe that runs along the side of the engine then and to the inter cooler, the bit behind the engine goes to the exhaust i think.
if you can follow the route of the one coming out of the turbo then you should be able to check for any leaks.
this is a closer pic of the above
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5915316
not sure what part that is, but don't think it should be leaking oil, best bet is to clean it up and check for exsuse oil as you use the car, i'd imagine you'll get some leakage as the connectors aren't going to be perfect.
hope this helps
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its hard to say from those pics, bit if looks like the majority of the oil is coming from the oil filter area. hard to be 100% sure on that as i've only really seen the filter from above.
when it comes to the inter cooler and connection pipe work the haynes is pretty poor.
regarding the turbo, if you take the engine cover off (the bit with tdi on) its will be in the top left hand corner (closest to drivers side) this should have a pipe that runs along the side of the engine then and to the inter cooler, the bit behind the engine goes to the exhaust i think.
if you can follow the route of the one coming out of the turbo then you should be able to check for any leaks.
this is a closer pic of the above
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5915316
not sure what part that is, but don't think it should be leaking oil, best bet is to clean it up and check for exsuse oil as you use the car, i'd imagine you'll get some leakage as the connectors aren't going to be perfect.
hope this helps
thanks for your help ridge. according to the previous response the turbo is located within the manifold, i take it this is not the same as under the engine cover. apologies in advance if i have this all wrong.
the oil leaking is a fair bit and actually drips form that corner shown in the pic and yes it is on the same side as the oil filter (but, oil filter is right at the top and this pic is obviously from under the car). do you think this problem is linked to the smoke etc and turbo?
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i would really appreciate your help. i can only do this if you guys help me out otherwise im going to end up loosing and giving it to the stealers :cry:
responses please guys.
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i would really appreciate your help. i can only do this if you guys help me out otherwise im going to end up loosing and giving it to the stealers :cry:
responses please guys.
any chance you can post a pic of of your engine from above with the engine cover off, so that we can point you at which pipes you should be looking at?
according to the previous response the turbo is located within the manifold
i'd be inclined to say rich is right as he's got the same engine as you, mines an ARL so a the tubro could be in a different place.
i wouldn't have thought the oil leaking would cause the white smoke, however if the gap is enough for massive amounts of oil to leak, then you could be looking at the source of your problem as if loads of oils getting out then loads of air could be escaping from the system there too.
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The turbo is in roughly the same place as yours. It's just that the turbo and exhaust manifold are 1 lump instead of 2 parts as on the ARL engine. I'll dig out some detailed pics from the ETKA to help.
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Actually, it looks like the ARL engine has the same turbo set up as the AHF. Pics about to follow.......
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Both the AHF and the ARL have the all in one turbo/exhaust manifold (item 1A) according to this:-
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/richandhazel/VW/Turbomanifoldcomparison.jpg)
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Here is another diagram that may help you, this part of the AHF set up is different to yours Ridge:-
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/richandhazel/VW/AHFIntercoolerlayout.jpg)
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See items 7, 8 and 10. That is where you took the pictures in your wheel arch below the intercooler.
Follow the items along to item 11 and that is your compressor outlet from the turbo.......check that connection. If thats ok and you still suspect the turbo, whip the pipe off and have a look at the compressor of the turbo. You should see some little vanes that should turn feely.
For further info, underneath the car, follow the exhaust pipe up all the way and that connects, via a triangular plate with 3 nuts on it, to the turbine of the turbo. If you suspect the turbo has failed you can also whip that connection off and have a look at the turbine. That way you will have looked at both parts that are likely to have failed.
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See items 7, 8 and 10. That is where you took the pictures in your wheel arch below the intercooler.
Follow the items along to item 11 and that is your compressor outlet from the turbo.......check that connection. If thats ok and you still suspect the turbo, whip the pipe off and have a look at the compressor of the turbo. You should see some little vanes that should turn feely.
For further info, underneath the car, follow the exhaust pipe up all the way and that connects, via a triangular plate with 3 nuts on it, to the turbine of the turbo. If you suspect the turbo has failed you can also whip that connection off and have a look at the turbine. That way you will have looked at both parts that are likely to have failed.
thaks alot guys, i almost gave up there. as long as ur there with me il keep trying!! :wink:
ok so rich, do i need to take my bumper off to get to the turbo, or caqn i access it from underneath where i have been taking the pictures from whilst keeping the bumper in place? also is the turbo closer to the drivers side?
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No need to remove bumper, turbo is behind the engine. You may need to remove the inner wheel arch surround to get at the compression outlet side. Turbo is positioned more or less central and I'd say that you have better access from underneath.
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Hi All,
just to give u guys an update. today i managed to check all my hoses which all seemed fine. the oil was leaking as the oil seal in the turbohad gone and sucked in a whole load of oil. this meant that the car was absolutly empty when it cam to oil and there was loads of oil in the exhaust.
i dropped it off to my mechanic today (not the stealers) and he said that the whole job will cost around a grand to 1500. This will be or a turbo change and a full exhaust replacement as it will be full of oil and will smoke too much even after a new turbo.
what r your thoughts guys?
ps - thanks for all ur help, its a pitty it wasnt the hoses in the end :cry:
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Sounds expensive and I don't see the need to replace the exhaust system. Any remaining oil will soon get blown out. Can the oil seal not be replaced?
Did the oil light not come on when this happened?
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Sounds expensive and I don't see the need to replace the exhaust system. Any remaining oil will soon get blown out. Can the oil seal not be replaced?
Did the oil light not come on when this happened?
the exhaust system will need to be replaced as i will not be aloud to drive the car and give it a chance to clear out, as the continuous smoke will get me pulled by the cops. a 50 mile drive on the motorway at high speed will get it cleared but also get me arrested. general day to day driving around town just wont do the trick, and i was told there is a risk that i could end up causing probs with the new turbo? not sure about that tho?
the question about the oil seal i also asked but i was told that as the turbo had been flooded with oil it needs to be changed.
the oil light came on eventually as all the oil leacked out, but not immediatly on the day of the problem. which i guess makes sense as it took sometime for the oil level to get low enough to trigger the oil light.
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ok guys, just had the work done and need to pay the mechanic tomorrow. need to know if this is a good price for the labour!
£385 - this is Labour only to remove and replace with new turbo, remove and replace full exhaust system and also to change oil. the price includes purchase of oil. i would have thought this is quite a big job, what ya think?
so what do you think? how good or bad, do i need to negotiate?
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sounds like quite a good price.
oil change on its own would set you back about £60 and i don't think that the full exhaust change would be a quick job, esp as the turbo is on the mainiford.
make sure you take it for a drive before you pay though just in case any of the timing needs to be adjusted.
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sounds like quite a good price.
oil change on its own would set you back about £60 and i don't think that the full exhaust change would be a quick job, esp as the turbo is on the mainiford.
make sure you take it for a drive before you pay though just in case any of the timing needs to be adjusted.
thanks very much ridge. makes me feel better. i have been driving the car tonight and have noticed that the turbo makes a sudden extra whistle every now and then which the old turbo never did. not sure if this is something to worry about?
also how can i tell if the timing needs to be adjusted?
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also how can i tell if the timing needs to be adjusted?
your car will feel a bit sluggish and there will be flat spots throughout the rev range; best thing to do is to try some foot-flat-to-the-floor accerlation in different gears and see if the car is sluggish, slow to respond etc;
also i believe it would idle a little eratically
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also how can i tell if the timing needs to be adjusted?
your car will feel a bit sluggish and there will be flat spots throughout the rev range; best thing to do is to try some foot-flat-to-the-floor accerlation in different gears and see if the car is sluggish, slow to respond etc;
also i believe it would idle a little eratically
o ok, well i dont think this is the case then...its being quite responsive and a smoth drive.....better then before really.
do i need to be extra gentle with the car for a while cos i have a recon turbo in there now? do i need to "run it in" ? really dont want to damage the thing again.
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sounds like its fine then :smiley:
just make sure you let everything get up to temperature before giving it full throttle, red line acceleration; same as normal really.
perhaps take it gentle for the first hundred miles but i would have thought its good to go out of the box