GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: Creepy Coupe on 20 June 2007, 11:12
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http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/first_drive.php?sid=352&page=1
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You might think differently but we think it looks awful – less like a performance car and more like a regular Golf 1.6 with a set of aftermarket rims.
Bit harsh! :shocked:
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i think they've missed the point of the car! and they got it wrong when they said its the same unit as the standard GTI! Its got more in common with the S3 lump!
Did they actually road test the car?? or just look at it from afar?? :undecided:
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i think they've missed the point of the car! and they got it wrong when they said its the same unit as the standard GTI! Its got more in common with the S3 lump!
I noticed a few magazine reviews made this mistake, including VW Driver IIRC!
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Question "What do I get for my investment?" makes me laugh! :laugh:
GTI is NOT an investment. It is SPENDING.
McLaren F1 is an investment, or Maserati MC12, cars like that...
WIth an investment you expect increase in value over time. Then questions like "what do I get for my investment" are not relevant, unless one talks about return and risk.
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Obviously, they do not like red GTI Ed.30
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Written by dilentantes.
Compare to Vauxall and Leon ONLY in terms of horse power. :rolleyes: What about handling???? GTI is bettter than both of those cars. VXR torque steers like a pig, and Leon is just soft...
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Oops
You might think differently but we think it looks awful – less like a performance car and more like a regular Golf 1.6 with a set of aftermarket rims.
Let’s get straight to the point: we love the extra poke, like the leather on the seats and pretty much hate all the other changes. The problem is that the standard car is just so good that this really does feel like gilding the lilly.
:sad:
Cass
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Oops
You might think differently but we think it looks awful – less like a performance car and more like a regular Golf 1.6 with a set of aftermarket rims.
Let’s get straight to the point: we love the extra poke, like the leather on the seats and pretty much hate all the other changes. The problem is that the standard car is just so good that this really does feel like gilding the lilly.
:sad:
Cass
the standard is good, but Ed30 is "gooder" :evil:
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With the exception to the wheels, I think the ED30 look's the business, the colour coding is what the GTi should of had all along, maybe VW were holding back to make the ED30 stand out a little more.
The tartan interior is spot on and in keeping with the cars image. :cool:
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Typical journo talking s***e tbh! Have the time they havent even driven the car themselves :angry:
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I'll be very honest here but the ONLY thing i don't like about the ED30 is the way the tartan continues to the end of the driver and passenger seats. The normal GTI with the interlagos seats had this finish about 3 quarter the way and then had the black part. I think they did this on the ED30 to save money on that part of the leather trim :shocked:
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Has anyone else noticed that the Interlargos trim on the Ed30 is slightly different to the normal GTIs? :shocked:
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This review from Car magazine was one of the first raft of reviews that came out....all spouting the same cr@p. Since then the reviewers have actually had time to get to know the true in's and out's of the ED30 and most now agree that it's worth the difference. :smug:
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This review from Car magazine was one of the first raft of reviews that came out....all spouting the same cr@p. Since then the reviewers have actually had time to get to know the true in's and out's of the ED30 and most now agree that it's worth the difference. :smug:
:cool:
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Then you read an article like THIS (http://www.superchips.co.uk/roadtest/VW%20Driver%20May07%20Golf%20GTI%20Edition30.PDF) and you realise what a special car the ED30 is.
Finished by this quote
That £1,700 premium for the limited edition GTI must now be considered the bargain of the century!
I nearly traded my standard GTI in for one last month but I am building a new house so will have to hold back for a while.
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standard car is "as good" fact, not one mag has given the ed 30 higher rating then standard GTi, and thats fact also. Theres a reason for everything, 4 stars for an edition 30, 5 stars Standard GTi, and thats whatcar.co.uk. sorry ed 30 peeps but its about time us standard owners had a say!! :evil:, I think a new string is needed for us quiet owners on Standard GTi's!, so much so that even the tiny voices in my head say go get an Edition 30, but im booking myself into rehab next week , so ask me again then!!
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People, let us be friends!
And read this:
http://www.carenthusiast.com/roadtests.html?mode=article&id=1893
Summary, Edition 30:
Performance (5/5):
Almost perfect for everyday use.
Engine & Transmission (5/5):
Does feel more powerful than the standard car, but not massively.
Ride & Handling (5/5):
Brilliant balance, grip and agility. Firm but supple ride.
Fuel Economy (3/5):
Average economy of 25mpg is typical for a contemporary hot hatch.
Tactility (4/5):
We still love the steering wheel and the switchgear is great.
Appearance (5/5):
Subtly different to the regular GTI. New alloys are lovely.
Interior (5/5):
Tweaked trim is great; the part-leather trim is the perfect balance between luxury and comfort.
Safety (5/5):
All you'd expect, leading to a five-star Euro NCAP occupant protection rating.
Equipment & Value for Money (5/5):
In isolation the small changes you get may not justify the extra cost, but enthusiasts will consider it a bargain.
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i think they've missed the point of the car! and they got it wrong when they said its the same unit as the standard GTI! Its got more in common with the S3 lump!
Actually, the major mechanicals of the Ed30 engine are the same as the standard GTI. The only mechanical difference is a slightly bigger turbo, and a different boost pressure control.
The S3 engine is out on it's own, with different pistons, con-rods, valves etc.
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Actually, the major mechanicals of the Ed30 engine are the same as the standard GTI. The only mechanical difference is a slightly bigger turbo, and a different boost pressure control.
The S3 engine is out on it's own, with different pistons, con-rods, valves etc.
If that's the case, would it be possible to upgrade an original GTI to the Ed30 engine spec? Any clues on how much that would be vs. re-mapping....?
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Actually, the major mechanicals of the Ed30 engine are the same as the standard GTI. The only mechanical difference is a slightly bigger turbo, and a different boost pressure control.
The S3 engine is out on it's own, with different pistons, con-rods, valves etc.
If that's the case, would it be possible to upgrade an original GTI to the Ed30 engine spec?
Yup, you could either get the OEM turbo and ancillary hardware, or Oettinger http://www.rsdcars-uk.co.uk/Oettinger.htm also supply a larger turbo, as part of their 310PS package. This was discussed at length in previous threads (probably titled Blufin :wink:).
Any clues on how much that would be vs. re-mapping....?
Ahhh, that is a much more complex question.
If you left everything else as standard, on a standard GTI, some remaps could potentially get you up to the 300PS region - but it would probably become quite undriveable, and certainly shorten the life of the standard turbo and recirc valve.
If you are looking for serious increase in donkey power, then you need to look at a range of hardware and software changes, including turbo, exhausts, hi-flo cat, freer-flowing intake system, etc
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i think they've missed the point of the car! and they got it wrong when they said its the same unit as the standard GTI! Its got more in common with the S3 lump!
Actually, the major mechanicals of the Ed30 engine are the same as the standard GTI. The only mechanical difference is a slightly bigger turbo, and a different boost pressure control.
The S3 engine is out on it's own, with different pistons, con-rods, valves etc.
Are you sure TT? :undecided:
I thought that the ED30 engine internal upgrades are the same as the S3!
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i think they've missed the point of the car! and they got it wrong when they said its the same unit as the standard GTI! Its got more in common with the S3 lump!
Actually, the major mechanicals of the Ed30 engine are the same as the standard GTI. The only mechanical difference is a slightly bigger turbo, and a different boost pressure control.
The S3 engine is out on it's own, with different pistons, con-rods, valves etc.
Are you sure TT? :undecided:
I thought that the ED30 engine internal upgrades are the same as the S3!
More info please TT... I've also read the same as Hurdy in several places.
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I have read in loads of places that the Ed30 engine IS the S3 engine de-tuned a bit, hence the ease with which it can be remaped up to over 300bhp. Also, I suspect the fact that the engine data in the Golf brochure says TBA because it is the S3 engine.
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Read the end paragraph of the first page and into the second page on the PDF below. Yes, I know it is the superchips site, and not a VW site, but it adds "fuel to the fire" so to speak :smiley:
http://www.superchips.co.uk/roadtest/VW%20Driver%20May07%20Golf%20GTI%20Edition30.PDF
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Got to say, I think TT could be wrong here!
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Got to say, I think TT could be wrong here!
Well, I could be wrong - indeed, I think I was wrong, once! :grin:
Anyhow, I now have access to offcial "press" sections of VAG websites (including Bugatti :drool:). All the "official" speil is that of all the 2 litre FSI turbo engines, the 200PS, the 230PS and the 240PS are all identical in terms of engine internals. However, the 265PS engine in the S3 has radically reworked pistons con-rods, valves, cylinder head, etc.
From the way I read and interpret all this, the Ed30 230PS, and the Leon Cupra 240PS have identical major mechanicals as the standard 200PS lump. They just have the larger turbo, and the remote diverter valve, which the S3 also has.
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Read the end paragraph of the first page and into the second page on the PDF below. Yes, I know it is the superchips site, and not a VW site, but it adds "fuel to the fire" so to speak :smiley:
http://www.superchips.co.uk/roadtest/VW%20Driver%20May07%20Golf%20GTI%20Edition30.PDF
The way I read that - it is ONLY the S3 which has all the uprated mechanicals, because in the same paragraph, they also quote the larger intercooler. We all now know that the Ed30 has exactly the same intercooler as the standard GTI
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Got to say, I think TT could be wrong here!
Well, I could be wrong - indeed, I think I was wrong, once! :grin:
Anyhow, I now have access to offcial "press" sections of VAG websites (including Bugatti :drool:). All the "official" speil is that of all the 2 litre FSI turbo engines, the 200PS, the 230PS and the 240PS are all identical in terms of engine internals. However, the 265PS engine in the S3 has radically reworked pistons con-rods, valves, cylinder head, etc.
From the way I read and interpret all this, the Ed30 230PS, and the Leon Cupra 240PS have identical major mechanicals as the standard 200PS lump. They just have the larger turbo, and the remote diverter valve, which the S3 also has.
Could you copy and paste relevent sections of what you have read please? Thanks
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some of the German forums had posted info that seemed to confirm that the S3 engine and Edition 30 share short block assemblys (rumpfmotor in Deutsch) - they seemed to think that this included pistons, conrods, etc (in much the same way that the previous S3, TT 225 and Cupra R shared much the same stronger engine compared to the ordinary KO3/KO3S 1.8t)
For examples of part numbers...
Rumpfmotor BHZ (S3) 06F 100 035
Rumpfmotor BYD (Jubi ) 06F 100 035
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some of the German forums had posted info that seemed to confirm that the S3 engine and Edition 30 share short block assemblys (rumpfmotor in Deutsch) - they seemed to think that this included pistons, conrods, etc (in much the same way that the previous S3, TT 225 and Cupra R shared much the same stronger engine compared to the ordinary KO3/KO3S 1.8t)
For examples of part numbers...
Rumpfmotor BHZ (S3) 06F 100 035
Rumpfmotor BYD (Jubi ) 06F 100 035
The "wonders" of mis-information on the internet. As I mentioned in another thread, there are crucial suffixes missing from those part numbers.
Illyun, I'll have to trawl through the entire back catalogue of archives, and unfortunatley, they don't have a "search" fuction! :cry:
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some of the German forums had posted info that seemed to confirm that the S3 engine and Edition 30 share short block assemblys (rumpfmotor in Deutsch) - they seemed to think that this included pistons, conrods, etc (in much the same way that the previous S3, TT 225 and Cupra R shared much the same stronger engine compared to the ordinary KO3/KO3S 1.8t)
For examples of part numbers...
Rumpfmotor BHZ (S3) 06F 100 035
Rumpfmotor BYD (Jubi ) 06F 100 035
The "wonders" of mis-information on the internet. As I mentioned in another thread, there are crucial suffixes missing from those part numbers.
Illyun, I'll have to trawl through the entire back catalogue of archives, and unfortunatley, they don't have a "search" fuction! :cry:
Its ok, don't worry about it... by the way you've just ruined my week. :angry: Its akin to saying to a 5 year old who is just about to visit Father Christmas that he doesn't really exist and that the bloke sat in the shopping mall is just wearing a costume. :cry: :cry: I really hope you're wrong. :sad:
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yes, looking foward to your findings T.T, i was always under the impression it wasnt major mechanical changes, but just turbo and intercooler mods bla bla, i posted saying about this, but was eaten by the hounds of the e30 club, saying it was total bull. Will be good to know for certain if it was true after all
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Righty, found the official VW press release for the Ed30 - so for all of you who are adamant that is is basically the S3 engine - now is your time to start eating that pie called humble! :grin:
Quote:
ENGINE
2.0-litre T-FSI, 1984 cc, 16-valve 4-cyl, 230 PS
The Golf GTI Edition 30 features a 2.0-litre four-cylinder FSI petrol engine boosted by a turbocharger and intercooler. The engine is mounted at the front transversely and drives through a six-speed manual or DSG automatic gearbox (see next section for details).
The GTI’s powerplant, which is based on the 150 PS unit currently used in the Golf GT FSI, delivers a maximum power output of 230 PS at 5,500 rpm. The extra power (an additional 30 PS when compared to the standard GTI) is extracted through a revised engine management programme. The 2.0-litre T-FSI in the Golf GTI has a high compression ratio of 11.5:1. Its broad torque band, 221 lbs ft (300 Nm) from 2,200 right up to 5,200 rpm, makes it an ideal engine for a sports car.
Fuel is injected only in the piston’s compression phase, rather than during induction as is the norm, and is placed in the tightly controlled stream of intake air moving towards the spark plug. Many of the principles used in FSI were inspired by the advanced technology featured in Volkswagen’s TDI engines.
By injecting fuel directly into the cylinder – as already seen in Volkswagen’s TDI diesel engines – combustion efficiency is improved and, as a result, so is fuel economy.
The main aim during the development of the GTI’s engine was increasing performance considerably to meet GTI core values, while keeping fuel consumption and emissions down. Thanks to the FSI technology plus turbocharger, Continuous Inlet Camshaft Adjustment, Plastic Variable Intake Manifold as well as other internal engine features, a high degree of efficiency could be achieved. Combined fuel consumption of 34.4 mpg (manual) is evidence that this technology works, while, like all Golf engines, the 2.0-litre T-FSI meets EU4 emissions legislation.
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And the Audi S3 press release:
quote:
TFSI in its most powerful form
The power plant of the S3 delivers all that is expected of a powerful sports engine, and does it supremely well. The 2.0 TFSI, which combines direct injection and turbocharger technology, delivers 265PS at 6,000 rpm. And at just 2,500 rpm it already musters up an impressive 350 Nm of torque – this pulling power remains constant up to 5,000 rpm. In the combined driving cycle the 2.0 TFSI displays another welcome character trait, its FSI direct petrol injection technology contributing to an impressive combined economy figure of 31.0mpg.
Compared with the A3, this engine is an advanced version which has undergone fundamental changes. The new turbocharger with its enlarged turbine and compressor rotor generates 1.2 bar of boost pressure – an unusually high figure. A modified intercooler significantly lowers the temperature of the compressed air, thus increasing the air mass necessary for combustion.
Pistons with stronger pins and strengthened connecting rods with new bearings transmit the powerful forces to the crankshaft. The cylinder block has been stiffened up and the head is made of a new, highly heat-resistant alloy.
The exhaust camshaft timing has been adjusted to accommodate the increased power output. High-pressure injectors with an enlarged cross-section squirt the fuel straight into the combustion chamber.
Despite all this progressive engineering, the high-performance turbo weighs in at just 152 kilos, which is less than comparable power plants from direct competitors, and this has a positive effect on the axle load distribution. The compact dimensions of the 2.0 TFSI make it suitable for transverse installation, which brings benefits in terms of the S3’s interior space and luggage capacity.
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why can the edition 30 be remapped to much higher power than the standard cars if the only difference is remap ?
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why can the edition 30 be remapped to much higher power than the standard cars if the only difference is remap ?
Because, as has already been established, the Ed30 does share the larger S3 turbo.
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why isnt that mentioned in the press release then ? Have to say i still think its the same in the cupra, s3, ed30
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why isnt that mentioned in the press release then ? Have to say i still think its the same in the cupra, s3, ed30
Sigh. The S3 is the only 2.0T FSI engine to have uprated internals, AND a larger turbo. The Ed30 and the Cupra share the same engine internals as the standard GTI lump, but gain the bigger turbo of the S3, and have revised engine mapping. :nerd:
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why isnt that mentioned in the press release then ? Have to say i still think its the same in the cupra, s3, ed30
Sigh. The S3 is the only 2.0T FSI engine to have uprated internals, AND a larger turbo. The Ed30 and the Cupra share the same engine internals as the standard GTI lump, but gain the bigger turbo of the S3, and have revised engine mapping. :nerd:
Makes sense to me, although strange that they never mentioned the larger turbo earlier on... you would have thought it would have been a good selling point! We are still debating today, and I've had mine 6 months now!! :shocked:
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Sounds a bit like blind faith... the evidence to the contrary is before your very eyes :smiley: Anyway, what doe sit matter, as long as you enjoy the car!
why isnt that mentioned in the press release then ? Have to say i still think its the same in the cupra, s3, ed30
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As the press releases contradict either school of thought about the Edition 30 engine, I guess the way to confirm either way is to compare part numbers of say, cylinder head, from 4 models, using info direct from VW, Audi and Skoda dealers
GTI, GTI Edition 30, S3 and Cupra
Anything else is just hearsay otherwise
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I have just talk with Oettinger this friday!
The edition 30 has all the same engine as the new s3,the only thing that not is shared is the intercooler and software.
169 KW BYD (Ed30) 06F 145 702 C KKK
195 KW BHZ (S3) 06F 145 702 C KKK
Block BYD (Ed30 ) 06F 100 035
Block BHZ (S3) 06F 100 035
Intercooler (Ed30) 1K0 145 803 A
Intercooler (S3) 1K0 145 803 P
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I have just talk with Oettinger this friday!
The edition 30 has all the same engine as the new s3,the only thing that not is shared is the intercooler and software.
169 KW BYD (Ed30) 06F 145 702 C KKK
195 KW BHZ (S3) 06F 145 702 C KKK
Block BYD (Ed30 ) 06F 100 035
Block BHZ (S3) 06F 100 035
Intercooler (Ed30) 1K0 145 803 A
Intercooler (S3) 1K0 145 803 P
Just a thought, the intercooler part numbers may refer to the end tanks as one is plastic 'P' and one is aluminium 'A'. And therefore the intercooler may be the same on each car, materials aside.
Except that they appear to be the other way round.
If you know what I mean. :undecided:
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As the press releases contradict either school of thought about the Edition 30 engine,
I don't agree that the press releases contradict at all.
OK, so there may be an element of ambiguity, but Audi clearly state upgraded engine internals, whereas VW make no such mention. However, VW clearly mention that the method of increased power in the Ed30 comes from "a revised engine management programme". You would have thought that IF the Ed30 DID have uprated internals, then VW would be shouting from the tree tops to make that particular point very clear. The simple fact is they didn't state any uprated internals, so we have to accept that, UNTIL there is concrete evidence to prove otherwise. Sadly, people quoting an incomplete part number, from non-genuine ETKA, continues to muddy the waters.
Another thing, whilst you all know my lack of "allegience" towards Superchips, I have great faith in the technical accuracy of Volkswagen Driver. The PDF of the Ed30 Bluefin as tested by Volkswagen driver also makes it very clear that the Ed30 does NOT share the same uprated engine internals of the S3.
I guess the way to confirm either way is to compare part numbers of say, cylinder head, from 4 models, using info direct from VW, Audi and Skoda dealers
GTI, GTI Edition 30, S3 and Cupra
I guess the "Skoda" bit was a typo! But yes, I agree. However, even then, I express some reservations, as it is fairly common for VW and Audi to either give out incorrect part numbers, not give them out at all, and even in some instances of pure muppetery - actually order completey incorrect parts.
Anything else is just hearsay otherwise
Well, I suppose if you are inclined to believe the "rumors", rather than factual information, then it can degenerate into hearsay!
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I have just talk with Oettinger this friday!
The edition 30 has all the same engine as the new s3,the only thing that not is shared is the intercooler and software.
169 KW BYD (Ed30) 06F 145 702 C KKK
195 KW BHZ (S3) 06F 145 702 C KKK
Block BYD (Ed30 ) 06F 100 035
Block BHZ (S3) 06F 100 035
Intercooler (Ed30) 1K0 145 803 A
Intercooler (S3) 1K0 145 803 P
FFS - HOW MANY FCUKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO STATE THIS: :angry:
The part numbers for the engine block are INCOMPLETE.
Secondly, Oettinger do NOT have franchised dealer ETKA (they, like all independents, rely on a "older" and "cut down" incomplete version of ETKA - which is often out of date).
The Ed30 does NOT have the same engine as the S3. It DOES have the same turbo as the S3.
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Just a thought, the intercooler part numbers may refer to the end tanks as one is plastic 'P' and one is aluminium 'A'. And therefore the intercooler may be the same on each car, materials aside.
Except that they appear to be the other way round.
If you know what I mean. :undecided:
Interesting thought - but sorry, it is completely wrong. The 4th "block" of figures actually refer to a "complete", or specific specification, to a common part.
For example, the first block of digits identifies the vehicle "range", so 1K0 relates to cars of the "A5" platform - being a Mk5 Golf. 1K1 will be for a LHD only Golf part, whereas 1K2 will be for a RHD only Golf part (think of front floor mats as an example).
The second and third groups refer to "common" assemblies and components. For example, common components could be brake disc, or road wheel, or headlamp (every vehicle in the VAG range uses these!).
The fourth group (usually letters) refers to differences of the same type of part. A 17" Monza wheel may have the letter A, whereas an 18" Monza II may have a letter B.
HTH
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I have just talk with Oettinger this friday!
The edition 30 has all the same engine as the new s3,the only thing that not is shared is the intercooler and software.
169 KW BYD (Ed30) 06F 145 702 C KKK
195 KW BHZ (S3) 06F 145 702 C KKK
Block BYD (Ed30 ) 06F 100 035
Block BHZ (S3) 06F 100 035
Intercooler (Ed30) 1K0 145 803 A
Intercooler (S3) 1K0 145 803 P
FFS - HOW MANY FCUKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO STATE THIS: :angry:
The part numbers for the engine block are INCOMPLETE.
Secondly, Oettinger do NOT have franchised dealer ETKA (they, like all independents, rely on a "older" and "cut down" incomplete version of ETKA - which is often out of date).
The Ed30 does NOT have the same engine as the S3. It DOES have the same turbo as the S3.
Steady Eddy, it's the weekend you should be reading the papers and luxuriating in your time off!!
One of the reasons that VW may not have gone public on any conflicting internal engine upgrades to the ED 30 is that it would denigrate their premium hatchback market (the S3) which currently sells for thousands of pounds more than the GTI. If they shouted from the rooftops that the ED30 had a detuned version of the S3 engine they'd lose millions in premium market sales.
So far no one has shown conclusive evidence eitherway concerning the engine modifications to the ED30 and much as I admire and appreciate your obviously knowledgeable and thoughtful insight TT at this point in time I fail to be convinced by anybody one way or the other.
Who would really know and how do we contact them??
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easiest way (from what i can see anyway!) is to get a GTI, ED30 and an S3 and strip the engines down and have a good poke around inside the engine :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
One of the reasons that VW may not have gone public on any conflicting internal engine upgrades to the ED 30 is that it would denigrate their premium hatchback market (the S3) which currently sells for thousands of pounds more than the GTI. If they shouted from the rooftops that the ED30 had a detuned version of the S3 engine they'd lose millions in premium market sales.
but equally they would also lose sales if everyone found out that the ED30 had the same engine as the S3 so a bit of a catch 22 situation
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easiest way (from what i can see anyway!) is to get a GTI, ED30 and an S3 and strip the engines down and have a good poke around inside the engine :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
One of the reasons that VW may not have gone public on any conflicting internal engine upgrades to the ED 30 is that it would denigrate their premium hatchback market (the S3) which currently sells for thousands of pounds more than the GTI. If they shouted from the rooftops that the ED30 had a detuned version of the S3 engine they'd lose millions in premium market sales.
but equally they would also lose sales if everyone found out that the ED30 had the same engine as the S3 so a bit of a catch 22 situation
You've got me wrong Rhyso, sorry if I wasn't clear but lost sales of the S3 was exactly what I meant.
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i understood what you meant hence why i said they would lose sales if everyone knew the ED30 had the same engine as the S3 as people would save the 7K and buy an ED30 instead of the S3.
my post wasn't clear enough lol
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As the press releases contradict either school of thought about the Edition 30 engine,
I don't agree that the press releases contradict at all.
OK, so there may be an element of ambiguity, but Audi clearly state upgraded engine internals, whereas VW make no such mention. However, VW clearly mention that the method of increased power in the Ed30 comes from "a revised engine management programme". You would have thought that IF the Ed30 DID have uprated internals, then VW would be shouting from the tree tops to make that particular point very clear.
Another thing, whilst you all know my lack of "allegience" towards Superchips, I have great faith in the technical accuracy of Volkswagen Driver. The PDF of the Ed30 Bluefin as tested by Volkswagen driver also makes it very clear that the Ed30 does NOT share the same uprated engine internals of the S3.
I guess the way to confirm either way is to compare part numbers of say, cylinder head, from 4 models, using info direct from VW, Audi and Skoda dealers
GTI, GTI Edition 30, S3 and Cupra
I guess the "Skoda" bit was a typo! But yes, I agree. However, even then, I express some reservations, as it is fairly common for VW and Audi to either give out incorrect part numbers, not give them out at all, and even in some instances of pure muppetery - actually order completey incorrect parts.
The press releases do contradict known facts...as posted by yourself, it is already confirmed that the Edition 30 engine does have a K04 turbo, so the "revised engine management program", whilst undoubtedly part of the gains (and necessary for the different turbo), is not the sole contributing factor to a 30hp gain. In any case, VW makes no mention of the K04 in their press release...
My reluctance to place much stock on a VW press release stems from the fact that the press release and dealer memo were obviously rushed, with little preparation...the original VW press photos were simply a LHD GTI with (badly) photoshopped wheels. Little or no information was available even through dealers when I ordered mine (a few days after the announcement) Press releases are also not written by engineers for enthusiasts...they are written by marketing departments who tailor information available to them at the time...in this case, they may have simply written the release with a headline grabbing figure of 30hp gain rather than explain in minute detail every technical change
I too have great faith in Volkswagen Driver magazine...I find it a refreshing and well written read. As part of their 2nd article on the Edition 30...
There were also some new owners who suspected that an aftermarket re-map could liberate much more than the standard 230 PS, undoubtedly inspired by the fact that the 2.0 T-FSI engine in the new SEAT Leon Cupra was rated at 240 PS. It was already known that the powerplant used for the Leon Cupra was not exactly the same 2.0 T-FSI engine as the GTI, tweaked up, but a de-tuned version of the 265 PS unit used in the new Audi S3. Could the same be true of the 230 PS unit in the GTI Edition 30...?
Indeed it was, and one of the first aftermarket tuners in the UK to get their hands on the GTI Edition 30 was Superchips, based in Buckingham. The official tuning partner to Volkswagen Racing, Superchips has a long pedigree in electronic engine tuning, with more than 500,000 cars of all makes successfully modified over the last 27 years.
As soon as the Superchips engineers examined the maps in the Edition 30’s ECU in detail, they realised that they weren’t looking at a standard 2.0 T-FSI unit which had been simply tweaked. The ignition timing, boost level, injector timing and other parameters were much more akin to the basic settings used for the new S3. With its stronger engine block, upgraded bearings, stronger conrods and a different alloy for the cylinder head, as well as a bigger intercooler, different valve timing and bigger injectors, plus a revised turbo giving greater boost, Superchips had already re-mapped the S3 unit up to over 300 bhp, and there was no reason why they couldn’t do much the same to the Edition 30 GTI.
Now whilst I personally have no experience of Superchips or their engineering expertise...I read this part of VW Driver article in two ways....either the Edition 30 engine is mechanically very similar to the S3 and Cupra version, (with strengthened internals, larger turbo, revised, cylinder head, etc) or it as you state...mechanically similar to the 200hp TFSI engine, but instead with a K04 turbo and revised engine management...VW Driver state however at the start of that quoted text that it is the former
Skoda was a typo :grin: but I state again that the preferred way of verifying this will be to take chassis numbers of a GTI, Edition 30, S3 and Cupra, and ask a friendly dealer to confirm which parts are fitted to each car...it may only add to the confusion and may not conclusively answer the debate...but it's a start :D
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^^^^^Nicely stated^^^^^^^
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I have just talk with Oettinger this friday!
The edition 30 has all the same engine as the new s3,the only thing that not is shared is the intercooler and software.
169 KW BYD (Ed30) 06F 145 702 C KKK
195 KW BHZ (S3) 06F 145 702 C KKK
Block BYD (Ed30 ) 06F 100 035
Block BHZ (S3) 06F 100 035
Intercooler (Ed30) 1K0 145 803 A
Intercooler (S3) 1K0 145 803 P
FFS - HOW MANY FCUKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO STATE THIS: :angry:
The part numbers for the engine block are INCOMPLETE.
Secondly, Oettinger do NOT have franchised dealer ETKA (they, like all independents, rely on a "older" and "cut down" incomplete version of ETKA - which is often out of date).
The Ed30 does NOT have the same engine as the S3. It DOES have the same turbo as the S3.
Steady Eddy, it's the weekend you should be reading the papers and luxuriating in your time off!!
One of the reasons that VW may not have gone public on any conflicting internal engine upgrades to the ED 30 is that it would denigrate their premium hatchback market (the S3) which currently sells for thousands of pounds more than the GTI. If they shouted from the rooftops that the ED30 had a detuned version of the S3 engine they'd lose millions in premium market sales.
Another intersting observation, and one which I expected much earlier in this discussion! :smug:
However, I think this point of view completely misses the point on a number of issues. Firstly, the GTI is an "iconic" badge, and if you are a true GTI fan, then you wont be tempted to an Audi. Secondly, no matter how many ponies an Ed30 had, it still misses out on a very crucial area to the S3, namely quattro. Finally, there is the "image" and build quality of Audis - whilst VWs are very good, they can not match that of the Audi, particularly in terms of interiors, the SatNav system, and also the sound quality (Bose really is a quantum leap better than the VW sounds).
At the end of the day, Audi, VW, Seat and Ã…Â koda all share very different "market values" and "target owners", and there is little crossover between the brands. Who was it who tested the Seat equivalent of the GTI, and couldn't wait to hand the keys back. :smug:
So far no one has shown conclusive evidence eitherway concerning the engine modifications to the ED30 and much as I admire and appreciate your obviously knowledgeable and thoughtful insight TT at this point in time I fail to be convinced by anybody one way or the other.
Well, if you want to believe in the "incomplete" part numbers, or ignore the very highly regarded Volkswagen Driver mag - then you will obviously find this issue inconclusive.
Who would really know and how do we contact them??
Wolfsburg, or Ingolstadt ???
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One of the reasons that VW may not have gone public on any conflicting internal engine upgrades to the ED 30 is that it would denigrate their premium hatchback market (the S3) which currently sells for thousands of pounds more than the GTI. If they shouted from the rooftops that the ED30 had a detuned version of the S3 engine they'd lose millions in premium market sales.
but equally they would also lose sales if everyone found out that the ED30 had the same engine as the S3 so a bit of a catch 22 situation
Yup, fully agree on that one too! :smug:
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Was me that took out a Seat Altea FR and wanted to end the test drive before i got it off there forecourt!, oh it still haunts me :smiley:
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I have just talk with Oettinger this friday!
The edition 30 has all the same engine as the new s3,the only thing that not is shared is the intercooler and software.
169 KW BYD (Ed30) 06F 145 702 C KKK
195 KW BHZ (S3) 06F 145 702 C KKK
Block BYD (Ed30 ) 06F 100 035
Block BHZ (S3) 06F 100 035
Intercooler (Ed30) 1K0 145 803 A
Intercooler (S3) 1K0 145 803 P
FFS - HOW MANY FCUKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO STATE THIS: :angry:
The part numbers for the engine block are INCOMPLETE.
Secondly, Oettinger do NOT have franchised dealer ETKA (they, like all independents, rely on a "older" and "cut down" incomplete version of ETKA - which is often out of date).
The Ed30 does NOT have the same engine as the S3. It DOES have the same turbo as the S3.
Steady Eddy, it's the weekend you should be reading the papers and luxuriating in your time off!!
One of the reasons that VW may not have gone public on any conflicting internal engine upgrades to the ED 30 is that it would denigrate their premium hatchback market (the S3) which currently sells for thousands of pounds more than the GTI. If they shouted from the rooftops that the ED30 had a detuned version of the S3 engine they'd lose millions in premium market sales.
Another intersting observation, and one which I expected much earlier in this discussion! :smug:
However, I think this point of view completely misses the point on a number of issues. Firstly, the GTI is an "iconic" badge, and if you are a true GTI fan, then you wont be tempted to an Audi. Secondly, no matter how many ponies an Ed30 had, it still misses out on a very crucial area to the S3, namely quattro. Finally, there is the "image" and build quality of Audis - whilst VWs are very good, they can not match that of the Audi, particularly in terms of interiors, the SatNav system, and also the sound quality (Bose really is a quantum leap better than the VW sounds).
At the end of the day, Audi, VW, Seat and Ã…Â koda all share very different "market values" and "target owners", and there is little crossover between the brands. Who was it who tested the Seat equivalent of the GTI, and couldn't wait to hand the keys back. :smug:
So far no one has shown conclusive evidence eitherway concerning the engine modifications to the ED30 and much as I admire and appreciate your obviously knowledgeable and thoughtful insight TT at this point in time I fail to be convinced by anybody one way or the other.
Well, if you want to believe in the "incomplete" part numbers, or ignore the very highly regarded Volkswagen Driver mag - then you will obviously find this issue inconclusive.
Who would really know and how do we contact them??
Wolfsburg, or Ingolstadt ???
From a personal perspective, I did look at both qualifying brands (VW and Audi).
The VW Ed30 was $54,000 (with discounts about 18,500 pounds) the Audi was $82,000 (28,700 pounds) and there was no value comparison. I will buy what is best, taking into account ability and price. I live in a country where four wheel drive is useful and in many cases the accepted norm. I choose to run two cars to accomplish my personal needs and a 'sporty' four wheel drive will not cover both.
As for the Seat Cupra, well, it has a (very) fine engine, cold, unimaginative interior, reasonable build quality, incomplete dynamics and controversial looks. As a whole it is accomplished but misses the mark and isn't priced far enough below the Golf to consider as an alternative.
Back to the Golf having the engine specification of the S3, well, who knows?
As you said in your post TT, Ingolstadt or Wolfsburg? I have a feeling that time will tell and it will tell that that VW (and Seat) did not 'pop' the KO4 turbo on the Edition 30 and wind up the boost but went a little further down a route that they already knew worked well but were careful not to conflict their financial interests.
You write very well.
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phope, I'll not quote your text, because I'll probably run over the 5,500 character limit! :rolleyes:
Firstly, regarding the offical press releases from VW and Audi, I did state there was some ambiguity. And I can see this as being a double-edged sword. With the Ed30 press release, does the fact that VW made no mention of the revised engine internals simply mean they are trying to "hide" (for want of a better word) an equivalent spec found on a much more expensive car in the VAG range? Personally, I think not. Why, because they have already stated "increased power comes from . . . . ".
I also admit that them failing to mention the "bigger turbo" may be another area of contention, but maybe there is some method or reason for this. Speaking from a UK-only point of view, "turbos" are seen as a "dirty" word in some quarters. Let is say a Civic Type-R ( :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: ), and an Ed30 were giving it the beans, side-by-side on the m-way, and having some "fun" :wink: with each other. PC plod in his unmarked, noticed this, pulled them both over, and reported them both. Three months later, both cases appear infront of the local beaks. The prosecution case will use the "turbo" issue as a kind of "bad-boy" tool for making your car go faster, and if they found it had an "even bigger turbo", then you ain't gonna get any sympathy, and will be thrown to the lions. The fact that turbo-charging is a way of increasing engine efficiency will be lost in arguements like these. Maybe this is why VWUK (where the specific press releases come from) choose to keep that aspect quiet, just like they keep launch control quiet! I don't have access to VWAG press, and I can't read German either!
Moving onto the photo images. Firstly, I don't remember seeing any images of the engine internals! :smug: Secondly, it is reasonably well known and established that any official "press" images are usually carried out based on cars of the originating market, ie, German spec LHD cars. It is extremely rare for them to make photos for each individual market, and instead, they usually put disclaimers on them "for illustrative purposes only", or similar.
Your comment about press releases being written to "grab" "headline" figures, such as the extra 30PS - and NOT being written by engineers - I think that is a non-starter. Firstly, VW do give engineering detail, stating something like "revision to engine management" (can't see the exact wording, 'cause it has scrolled off the bottom of the page). Secondly, Audi also give engineering detail in their press release.
Regarding the VW Driver mag - in the first paragraph you quote, referring to the Seat Leon Cupra, it states it has a "detuned" version of the S3 engine. That is an extremely simplistic and ambiguous statement, because to take that style of writing to the extreme, then the 150PS 2 litre FSI (non-turbo) could also be classed as a "detuned S3 motor".
The second paragraph states "Superchips . . . are the official tuning partner to Volkswagen Racing". I'm sure we all know that is utter tosh. Superchips are the official "advertising" - NOT tuning partner to VW Racing. Indeed, all the competators are free to use whatever "tuning maps" they wish. Furthermore, VW Racing carry out their own "in-house" ECU tuning.
And of the final paragraph, I don't agree with you - where you state the Ed30 shares the S3 mechanicals. However, I do agree that the more times I read it, the more confusing, and journalistically poor, it becomes. I honestly don't think there is any specific mast to which they have pinned their flags to! :undecided:
An official Seat press release on the Cupra:
(9th November 2006)
The new 240 PS 2.0-litre T FSI engine has been considerably uprated compared with the Leon FR's 200 PS version, on which it is based. Modifications include a larger turbocharger, reinforced pistons and engine block, strengthened connecting rods, a new ultra heat-resistant alloy for the cylinder head, plus larger injectors.
So, it seems perfectly clear to me that all the relevent manufacturers within VAG are more than capable of releasing technically accurate press releases! :smug:
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Was me that took out a Seat Altea FR and wanted to end the test drive before i got it off there forecourt!, oh it still haunts me :smiley:
Whoops, sorry to drag up your "trauma" again! :embarassed:
Shall I arrange another appointment with your counsellor! :evil:
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Speedy, it would seem that you have to pay a much bigger premuim for Audis in NZ, compared to what we have to here in Blighty! :shocked:
I agree with your comments on the Seat. I personally think they are fugly - and the interior is aweful!
I really don't think we will know for definate, until maybe a parts person from an official franchised stealer posts here.
However, I do see this running on and on. Indeed, an identical situation arose, relating to the 1.8 20valve turbo engines. When the Mk1 TT, along with the Mk1 S3 were released with 225PS as standard (an uprated internals to match! :wink:) - some of these eventually became "tuned" up to silly, but very reliable figures, around 380PS if I recall correctly. Then came along the "less well informed", or those who refused to believe they had upgraded internals. These then started to tune their standard build 1.8 20VTs to similar figures as the tuned S3/TT motors, and then wondered why they started throwing con-rods! :smug: Looks like some people will only learn the "hard way"!
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TT, we do pay more for Audi's here but less than the UK for ED30's (despite both of them having to be shipped 12000 miles???). Some of this is taken taken into account by occasionally large currency fluctuations.
In summary, none of us really yet know the truth about the internals of the ED30's engine (the speculation has been fun though) no doubt in time all will be revealed, whether it by a forum member finding a part number on a thrown conrod on the side of the M4 or by more official means.
As a recent ED30 purchaser I live in hope!
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Certainly lots of conflicting and ambiguous info being published about whether the Ed30 has beefed up internals or not. One aspect which might (or might not) be a clue is the price - Does the price difference of the Ed30 reflect a liklihood or not of different internals from the standard GTI ?
I know that if the Ed30 had been on offer when I bought my GTI I would have ordered one. However, even with 'stronger' internals, there is a limit to how much donkey power (borrowing T-T's great term) a Mk5 GTI of any spec will take without losing road driveability and reliability. I'm sticking to Stage1.
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Re what TT says above,
'These then started to tune their standard build 1.8 20VTs to similar figures as the tuned S3/TT motors, and then wondered why they started throwing con-rods!'
If the difference is only the bigger turbo and ECU, does this mean that there may be reliability issues around the corner for ED30 owners who have used the likes of Superchips to increase their BHP to 300+?
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TT, we do pay more for Audi's here but less than the UK for ED30's (despite both of them having to be shipped 12000 miles???). Some of this is taken taken into account by occasionally large currency fluctuations.
That is wierd! Is there the same discrepancies throughout the range of VeeDubs and Audis you get down there?
Oh and the "fluctuations" has just reminded me of a corker of a joke . . . :undecided:
In summary, none of us really yet know the truth about the internals of the ED30's engine (the speculation has been fun though) no doubt in time all will be revealed, whether it by a forum member finding a part number on a thrown conrod on the side of the M4 or by more official means.
Sadly, even if we do actually find the "officical" information, you will still get someone who refuses to believe it, and ends up oiling the tarmac. :angry:
As a recent ED30 purchaser I live in hope!
What, of throwing :wink: - or that it has beefed up internals?? :grin:
I'll get me coat! :tongue:
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Certainly lots of conflicting and ambiguous info being published about whether the Ed30 has beefed up internals or not. One aspect which might (or might not) be a clue is the price - Does the price difference of the Ed30 reflect a liklihood or not of different internals from the standard GTI ?
Hmmm . . . good thinking. The Ed30 carries a premium of £1,715 over the equvalent spec GTI. When you take into account the 18" rims, leather, all the fancy stiching and mats, and the fact they are "exclusive limited editions" (which command a price premium anyway), I really don't think the price increase is appropriate to major changes in engine internals. Compare this to the Leon FR 200PS and Leon Cupra 240PS (with upgraded internals), and the difference is £2,445 - so the Cupra carries an additional £730 premium over the Ed30. Would £730 pay for better quality pistons, rods, etc? Probably not as an individual, but with the bulk purchasing power of the Volkswagen Audi Group, I'd probably say yes!
I know that if the Ed30 had been on offer when I bought my GTI I would have ordered one. However, even with 'stronger' internals, there is a limit to how much donkey power (borrowing T-T's great term) a Mk5 GTI of any spec will take without losing road driveability and reliability. I'm sticking to Stage1.
I'm personally happy with the GTI, particularly the full leather, so the Ed30 would have been a non-starter for me. When the SWMBO and I were looking to buy the GTI, we also carefully compared it with the R32, but the 32 was ruled out on a number of issues, and the GTI was top of the list, one reason being that it was far easier to "chip tune" compared to the VR6 lump.
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Re what TT says above,
'These then started to tune their standard build 1.8 20VTs to similar figures as the tuned S3/TT motors, and then wondered why they started throwing con-rods!'
If the difference is only the bigger turbo and ECU, does this mean that there may be reliability issues around the corner for ED30 owners who have used the likes of Superchips to increase their BHP to 300+?
Hmm, I would personally suggest that 280, maybe a max of 300PS should be fine on the standard GTI lump (don't wave your sticky mitts in my direction if it does go Pete Tong, though! :tongue:).
I think that the DSG owners have a bit of a "safety net", though, as the DSG box has a limited torque input, which should limit any silly power gains. The manual boys will have to be our "beta" testers! :kiss:
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Re what TT says above,
'These then started to tune their standard build 1.8 20VTs to similar figures as the tuned S3/TT motors, and then wondered why they started throwing con-rods!'
If the difference is only the bigger turbo and ECU, does this mean that there may be reliability issues around the corner for ED30 owners who have used the likes of Superchips to increase their BHP to 300+?
Hmm, I would personally suggest that 280, maybe a max of 300PS should be fine on the standard GTI lump (don't wave your sticky mitts in my direction if it does go Pete Tong, though! :tongue:).
I think that the DSG owners have a bit of a "safety net", though, as the DSG box has a limited torque input, which should limit any silly power gains. The manual boys will have to be our "beta" testers! :kiss:
I'm letting everyone else be "beta" testers first :wink:.
For me the question of having upgraded engine internals is purely subjective. I would like to think they are being used, but as my engine is still standard and has the increased power over a standard GTI anyway, it doesn't matter. When it will matter is if and when I do decide to upgrade the power. I may now only do this once a definitive answer to whether the internals are upgraded is settled.
Until then I am happy with the fact I have an ED30 :smug:
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I'm letting everyone else be "beta" testers first :wink:.
No sense of adventure, eh??? :wink: :grin:
For me the question of having upgraded engine internals is purely subjective. I would like to think they are being used, but as my engine is still standard and has the increased power over a standard GTI anyway, it doesn't matter.
That is so true, and a major point of view which we have all missed! :tongue: I'm certain that whichever engine you have (the standard GTI, the Ed30, or the Cupra/S3), providing you don't modify it, maintain it appropriately, and also treat it appropriately - then it will be absolutely bullet proof.
When it will matter is if and when I do decide to upgrade the power. I may now only do this once a definitive answer to whether the internals are upgraded is settled.
I don't think that sensible, modest power gains from chip tunining or other methods will be problematic. I would be reasonably confident that adding an extra 30-40% increase, on whatever engine, should be relatively safe. Therefore, if you have a standard GTI, then taking into the realms of 280PS will be OK, for an Ed30 motor, upto 310PS, and for the S3 upto 370PS.
I see problems when people with the standard 200PS GTI lump try to match the 370PS figures of the S3 engine. If that is your preference, make sure you carry some chicken sh!t and a tow rope in the boot! :shocked: