GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: Peskarik on 05 May 2007, 17:58
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Here is a nice article:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
But I remember TT was saying something like 0-300 miles = 2500RPM max...300-600 = 3500RPM max etc.
:undecided:
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From another webpage:
Keep in mind that there really shouldn’t be any metal to metal contact happening within your engine, other than the rings to the cylinder walls. The rings are the ONLY things we are interested in breaking in or seating. What seats rings is cylinder pressure. Rings and pistons are designed so that cylinder pressure sneaks behind the compression rings and forces them out against the newly honed cylinder wall. Why do I mention this? Because I want you to take your warmed up car out on the road, find a nice straight stretch and do a couple of full-throttle runs in third or fourth gear from about 2500-5500 rpm. Each time you hit 5500-6000 rpm, snap your foot off the gas and let the car coast down to 2500 rpm while in gear, to pull high vacuum in the cylinders. Repeat this step about five times and you should have a nicely mated set of rings and cylinders. NOTE: When I say “full throttleâ€Â, I am referring to a normally aspirated engine. For a turbo or supercharged car, modulate the throttle to achieve about zero on your boost gauge, rather than full throttle. This would be roughly equivalent to full throttle in a normally aspirated car.
Take it home, recheck for leaks, make sure fans work, etc and then change the oil.
( http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/breakin.php )
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Both articles are from the US.
The US "know-it-alls" are extremely well known for ignoring both manufacturers instructions, and commonly established practices.
It was afterall, the yanks who seriously gave VW Audi products a bad name, by fcuking up the 1.8 turbo engines. They were specifcally told to only use fully synthetic oils (to the relevent VW standards), but to leave the oil for 10k miles between changes. The yanks said, hell-no, I aint gonna keep my oil for that long. Instead, they used cheapo shyte mineral oil from their local WalMart (or wherever), and thought by changing it every 2,500 miles, it would be 4 times better for the engine than leaving fully synth oil for 10k miles. What they didn't get, is that mineral oil cannot cope with the extreme heat of turbo bearings, the oil very rapidly broke down, forming solid carbon deposits, which then blocked the oil pick-up strainers and oil filters - causing engine failures from oil starvation!
Now, if you think that US bolloc&s is sound advice, then follow it - but my personal recommendation would be to stick with the manufacturers instructions for running in, and use the correct oil too! :wink:
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Both articles are from the US.
The US "know-it-alls" are extremely well known for ignoring both manufacturers instructions, and commonly established practices.
It was afterall, the yanks who seriously gave VW Audi products a bad name, by fcuking up the 1.8 turbo engines. They were specifcally told to only use fully synthetic oils (to the relevent VW standards), but to leave the oil for 10k miles between changes. The yanks said, hell-no, I aint gonna keep my oil for that long. Instead, they used cheapo shyte mineral oil from their local WalMart (or wherever), and thought by changing it every 2,500 miles, it would be 4 times better for the engine than leaving fully synth oil for 10k miles. What they didn't get, is that mineral oil cannot cope with the extreme heat of turbo bearings, the oil very rapidly broke down, forming solid carbon deposits, which then blocked the oil pick-up strainers and oil filters - causing engine failures from oil starvation!
Now, if you think that US bolloc&s is sound advice, then follow it - but my personal recommendation would be to stick with the manufacturers instructions for running in, and use the correct oil too! :wink:
And he is back! :smiley:
No, I like the 0-300 = 2500, ... more, and that is what I will follow.
I wonder, is it good idea to change the oil after 1000-2000 miles? What do you think, TT?
P.S. Welcome back from holidays!
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TT actually had a schedule on here somewhere that he used for breaking in his car.
I can remember it exactly - but something like starting at 3000rpm and upping an extra 500rpm every 200 miles?!
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TT actually had a schedule on here somewhere that he used for breaking in his car.
I can remember it exactly - but something like starting at 3000rpm and upping an extra 500rpm every 200 miles?!
Exactly.
I liked that schedule so much that I am going to steal it and use it. :nerd:
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Btcha can't stick rigidly to it though :wink:
I had a few right foot involuntary twitch moments even though I swore blind that I would stick to the run in regime :rolleyes:
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Btcha can't stick rigidly to it though :wink:
I had a few right foot involuntary twitch moments even though I swore blind that I would stick to the run in regime :rolleyes:
I have will of steel! :cool:
But I will try to run in in the shortest possible time, even if it means long meaningless tours on A and B roads. :smiley:
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But I will try to run in in the shortest possible time, even if it means long meaningless tours on A and B roads. :smiley:
Exactly like me! I'm going to make a huge effort to get my first 1000 miles out of the way as quickly as possible!!
I'm normally an 8000 miles per year type of driver... but it'll be 1000 in a week :wink:
Do you know which post the schedule was in?!
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Here you are :smiley:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=58268.0
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Nice to see TT is back :wink:
Hurdy when did you become a mod?
I followed TT advice in breaking in my ED30 slowly building up the revs. No oil used what so ever! :cool:
Now does anyone know what oil they put in the engines at the time-distance service. I know that they use Castrol Edge for the Variable servicing. But with the output of thr ED30 I think I would be happier changing it every 10,000 miles. Did someone say that the new S3 is not on variable servicing?
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Both articles are from the US.
The US "know-it-alls" are extremely well known for ignoring both manufacturers instructions, and commonly established practices.
It was afterall, the yanks who seriously gave VW Audi products a bad name, by fcuking up the 1.8 turbo engines. They were specifcally told to only use fully synthetic oils (to the relevent VW standards), but to leave the oil for 10k miles between changes. The yanks said, hell-no, I aint gonna keep my oil for that long. Instead, they used cheapo shyte mineral oil from their local WalMart (or wherever), and thought by changing it every 2,500 miles, it would be 4 times better for the engine than leaving fully synth oil for 10k miles. What they didn't get, is that mineral oil cannot cope with the extreme heat of turbo bearings, the oil very rapidly broke down, forming solid carbon deposits, which then blocked the oil pick-up strainers and oil filters - causing engine failures from oil starvation!
Now, if you think that US bolloc&s is sound advice, then follow it - but my personal recommendation would be to stick with the manufacturers instructions for running in, and use the correct oil too! :wink:
And he is back! :smiley:
Damn, and I thought I could sneakily return without anyone noticing . . . :evil:
No, I like the 0-300 = 2500, ... more, and that is what I will follow.
I wonder, is it good idea to change the oil after 1000-2000 miles? What do you think, TT?
P.S. Welcome back from holidays!
Thanks for the welcome.
Changing the oil after only 1 or 2k miles is pointless - as the engine still continues to "bed in" until anything upto 10k or even 15k miles! Actually, the most bedding in wear will only start after the initial run in period, when you start using full throttle, and high engine loads - so max wear will probably be between about 1,500 miles, to maybe 4 or 5k miles. I personally changed mine at 4.5k miles (halfway between what the SID had calculated), and am on the T&D regime, but still use the much higher spec LongLife oils,
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Here you are :smiley:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=58268.0
Hmm, I posted a table some where, but can't find it now! OK, I'll repost it - do you want my RS4 one with the 8,250 rev limit ?? OK, thought not! :evil:
0 - 300 miles up to 2,500 rpm / 1/4 throttle
300 - 600 miles up to 3,500 rpm / 1/2 throttle
600 - 800 miles up to 4,500 rpm / 1/2 throttle
800 - 1,000 miles up to 5,500 rpm / 3/4 throttle
1,000 - 1,200 miles up to 6,500 rpm / 3/4 throttle
1,200 - onwards max rpm / full throttle
The most crucial thing when running in, is to vary the engine speeds within those thresholds, so for example, between 600 and 800 miles, don't religiously stick at 4,500 rpm for the whole 200 miles - vary it up to 4,500 rpm.
HTH
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Nice to see TT is back :wink:
Ta.
Hurdy when did you become a mod?
Huh, I missed that - come on Hurdy, own up, how much, whos' nipples did you have to grease?? :grin:
I followed TT advice in breaking in my ED30 slowly building up the revs. No oil used what so ever! :cool:
Good, so it works. However, one you start to use sustained high revs and full throttle, keep an eye on your dipstick (don't rely on the computer to tell you when to top up).
Now does anyone know what oil they put in the engines at the time-distance service. I know that they use Castrol Edge for the Variable servicing. But with the output of thr ED30 I think I would be happier changing it every 10,000 miles. Did someone say that the new S3 is not on variable servicing?
OK, I'll repeat what I've mentioned before. All VAG engines are factory filled with the pukka LongLife oil, even if they are exported to countries unable to use the LongLife regime. Now, if you take your car to a VW stealer, and it is on T&D servicing, then they are likely to use the older 502.00 spec oil. However, my advice would be to still use the better spec LongLife oil - either ask the stealer to fill it with LongLife oil, or better still, buy your own LongLife oil, and get them to use that (that is what I do).
Regarding the Variable/LongLife servicing, for some time now, VAG have "indicated" that it is not suitable for either high performance cars, nor if you drive in an "enthusiastic" manner. On the 2007 model year brochures, VAG now confirm this, by specifically stating LongLife is not suitable if you go above 3,000rpm.
One final point, there are about five or six different "brews" of Castrol Edge - make sure you get the correct one - which meets the 504.00 spec.
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Quote from: TagnuT on Today at 12:55
Hurdy when did you become a mod?
Huh, I missed that - come on Hurdy, own up, how much, whos' nipples did you have to grease??
They said I was the only one who could keep TT in check :grin: Only kidding.
JV asked me earlier this week
OOOOHHH the POWER!......errr....not much actually. Just get to keep an eye on all you fine upstanding pillars of the community :rolleyes:
I also get to put my details in the moderators section for you all to have a laugh..err..look at
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Hmm, I posted a table some where, but can't find it now! OK, I'll repost it - do you want my RS4 one with the 8,250 rev limit ?? OK, thought not! :evil:
0 - 300 miles up to 2,500 rpm / 1/4 throttle
300 - 600 miles up to 3,500 rpm / 1/2 throttle
600 - 800 miles up to 4,500 rpm / 1/2 throttle
800 - 1,000 miles up to 5,500 rpm / 3/4 throttle
1,000 - 1,200 miles up to 6,500 rpm / 3/4 throttle
1,200 - onwards max rpm / full throttle
I'll try and stick to this... but the 1/4 throttle may be a bit tricky! What is the top RPM of a Golf anyway? I'm sure it will be lower than my Integra was :laugh:
That says 1200 miles! Thats an extra 200 I have to do before I can properly boot it :cry:
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Hurdy..not to burst ya balloon.. but jv only usually asks the trouble makers or noisy lot to become mods in an attempt to shut them up.. :wink:
welcome to my world chuck.. :tongue:
Dinx :kiss:
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Hurdy..not to burst ya balloon.. but jv only usually asks the trouble makers or noisy lot to become mods in an attempt to shut them up.. :wink:
welcome to my world chuck.. :tongue:
Dinx :kiss:
Calm me down....naaahh :wink:
Mind you....I wonder if that's how I got where I am in my career :rolleyes:
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I recently had the oil in my car topped up after 3600miles - dipstick was halfway between min and max, but (only?) used 500ml of the longlife stuff. is that normal?
Also, dunno if anyone else has encountered this, but when i purchased the oil from vw, they didn't give me any of the castrol stuff - they gave this shell helix ultra....blah blah.....stuff but assured/guaranteed that the oil was compatible with the car. They said they had problems getting the castrol juice and may not supply it in the future, replacing it with the shell juice.
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I put exactly the same amount of oil in at 3800miles, although I got the correct 504.00 oil (check handbook) from Halfrauds.
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Every time i read this subject header I thinks its about car security not running in! :wink:
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They said I was the only one who could keep TT in check :grin: Only kidding.
Chalk out the battle lines . . . :grin: :grin:
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I recently had the oil in my car topped up after 3600miles - dipstick was halfway between min and max, but (only?) used 500ml of the longlife stuff. is that normal?
The oil consumption can vary depending upon how you drive it. It can be bu&&er all, or upto 1 litre per 1000 miles.
Also, dunno if anyone else has encountered this, but when i purchased the oil from vw, they didn't give me any of the castrol stuff - they gave this shell helix ultra....blah blah.....stuff but assured/guaranteed that the oil was compatible with the car. They said they had problems getting the castrol juice and may not supply it in the future, replacing it with the shell juice.
As long as the Shell brew was approved by VW to the 504.00 standard - then you are fine. Indeed, any oil to the 504.00 standard would be OK, though I'd probably avoid Tesco Value LongLife 3 liquid gold :wink:, and I'd also avoid any Mobil 1 brew, 'cause they lie about their approvals. :shocked: :rolleyes:
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Speaking from personal experience, I have never, ever followed a manufacturers running-in advice, having always given my cars full beans from the off, and not once has it come back to bite me.
My current car (Impreza) has survived almost three years and 80-odd thousand miles of hard driving since day one, and uses no oil between 10k mile service intervals. When my new car arrives on September 1st I will give that exactly the same treatment, because not only has this never given me any problems, but it has produced notably faster cars - colleagues and friends who have read and stuck to manufacturers guidlines in identical cars have ended up with markably slower cars.
Before anyone suggests that it may produce long term problems, look again at my Impreza. 80-odd thousand miles in just under three years - neither time nor mileage benchmarks can be considered short-term. The car still starts on the button, is sewing-machine smooth, and doesn't leak or burn a drop of oil. Yet it is faster than two friends identical-year Imprezas of identical spec....
One final point to consider - One of (if not the) largest fleet operators in the UK - the Police - do not follow manufacturers guidlines for running in; new cars are received and are straight out in active duty, without imposed rev-limits. If lack of running in bought-on identifiable premature wear do you not think the police would adopt a running-in procedure, or have the cars pre-run-in?
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Speaking from personal experience, I have never, ever followed a manufacturers running-in advice, having always given my cars full beans from the off, and not once has it come back to bite me.
My current car (Impreza) has survived almost three years and 80-odd thousand miles of hard driving since day one, and uses no oil between 10k mile service intervals. When my new car arrives on September 1st I will give that exactly the same treatment, because not only has this never given me any problems, but it has produced notably faster cars - colleagues and friends who have read and stuck to manufacturers guidlines in identical cars have ended up with markably slower cars.
Before anyone suggests that it may produce long term problems, look again at my Impreza. 80-odd thousand miles in just under three years - neither time nor mileage benchmarks can be considered short-term. The car still starts on the button, is sewing-machine smooth, and doesn't leak or burn a drop of oil. Yet it is faster than two friends identical-year Imprezas of identical spec....
One final point to consider - One of (if not the) largest fleet operators in the UK - the Police - do not follow manufacturers guidlines for running in; new cars are received and are straight out in active duty, without imposed rev-limits. If lack of running in bought-on identifiable premature wear do you not think the police would adopt a running-in procedure, or have the cars pre-run-in?
Very interesting stuff, I can certainly see the technical argument.
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do you have stats or could it just be down to the driver? you being a super duper driver ?
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do you have stats or could it just be down to the driver? you being a super duper driver ?
Hah hah, thanks for the compliment (I think) but when we have tested against each others cars it has been from a rolling start, or a simple drag, so late braking/high-speed cornering/better driver etc doesn't really factor into it - it really doesn't take a good driver to get these things off the line and give it full beans. Granted, there may be milli-seconds in gearchange times, but my friends are just as brutal as I am....
Also, we have all driven each others cars and (much to their dismay) my friends agree mine feels the quickest of the bunch.
At the last track day I did at Oulton I had little problems keeping up with a friends PPP'd STi, which should have somewhere in the region of 100bhp more than my car. Now, he knows Oulton park well, and he can drive (I actually met him last year when doing a trip to the Nurburgring) so that wasn't a lack of talent on his part that allowed me to stay nailed to his chuff. He should have demolished me....
My final piece of evidence I'd like to offer in the debate is my previous car - my Mk4 PD150 GTi golf.
Again, a standard car. Always serviced on the button, always allowed to fully warm up and cool down properly. But, totally leathered from new. Rolling roaded at our own golfgti.co.uk rolling road day at AMD - 186bhp and nearly 280ftlb's of torque - well above what it should have been churning out.
Now, I know PD engines are notorious for over-delivering, but most re-mappers claim only 190bhp as a stage one tune, and mine was turning out nearly that as a standard car.
So, I offer a potential link - ignore the run-in procedure, gain more power? It has worked for me (with no down-sides), I have driven and am still driving the evidence. I'll let you know if it's worked again, come mid-October-ish...
If you haven't read the RR article, check it out. I think my little standard diseasle held its own quite nicely...
http://www.golfgti.co.uk/viewpastevents.asp?eventID=42
(http://www.golfgti.co.uk/pageimages/AmDmay04/amd12.jpg)
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Speaking from personal experience, I have never, ever followed a manufacturers running-in advice, having always given my cars full beans from the off, and not once has it come back to bite me.
Hmm, there may be elements of luck, your skill, or actual engineering principles which have, to date, served you well. However, would you feel comfortable if another poster here followed your principles, only to end up with engine failure or some lesser engine probs, and whinge "I was only following what S11EPS recommended" ??
Irrespective of what may or may not work for one inividual, or weather it is based on engineering priciples found on some race engine tuners web site - I would still err on the side of caution, and recommend only following the manufacturers instructions. Afterall, it will be VW, and not S11EPS, who pick up the bill for any warranty work! :wink:
My current car (Impreza) has survived almost three years and 80-odd thousand miles of hard driving since day one, and uses no oil between 10k mile service intervals.
Yebut, ricers are known for a little more reliability than european motors! And 10k servicing intervals, presumably with a high spec fully synthetic oil is still a relatively conservative regime (but not to Yanks !!).
When my new car arrives on September 1st I will give that exactly the same treatment, because not only has this never given me any problems, but it has produced notably faster cars - colleagues and friends who have read and stuck to manufacturers guidlines in identical cars have ended up with markably slower cars.
Again, hmmmm. A standard car can be made to release its' ultimate power, even if it was run-in to manufacturers guidelines. Regular, hard use after the initial run-in period will still release the same ultimate power as a car thrashed from day one. Your mates may simply not be driving as hard as you in general terms. Indeed, SWMBOs last Astra was repeated thought to be a 2 litre SRI, yet it was only a 1.8 115PS - it was babied during the run-in period, but after that, was regularly "cleared out", and the tecchys at the main stealer said it was way faster than all the other 1.8 Astras they ever had, even the later 130PS variants.
Before anyone suggests that it may produce long term problems, look again at my Impreza. 80-odd thousand miles in just under three years - neither time nor mileage benchmarks can be considered short-term. The car still starts on the button, is sewing-machine smooth, and doesn't leak or burn a drop of oil. Yet it is faster than two friends identical-year Imprezas of identical spec....
As detailed above. ^^^^ Also, 80k miles in three years would indicate that the car has to deal with very few cold starts. Indeed, regular, sustained high speed cruising is considerably kinder to an engine, compared to one with frequent cold starts, short journeys, or dawdling around towns.
One final point to consider - One of (if not the) largest fleet operators in the UK - the Police - do not follow manufacturers guidlines for running in; new cars are received and are straight out in active duty, without imposed rev-limits. If lack of running in bought-on identifiable premature wear do you not think the police would adopt a running-in procedure, or have the cars pre-run-in?
Erm, I think you may be wrong there. Firstly, the Police is not the largest fleet operator, even when all 52 forces are combined as a whole figure. The Police forces that I've had contact with ARE told to comply with running procedures, with a caveat of some "emergency response" exceptions. Given that, most "high speed" operational vehicles (not the routine "panda" type patrol cars) are usually past the run-in period after just a few days anyway. Then there is the maintenance issues, Police vehicles always have a daily inspection (DI) and the oil (and other levels) is always kept topped up to the max. They are serviced either on, or before manufacturers schedules, invariably to a far greater standard than any civvy motor, with genuine parts. Police vehicles are usually disposed of after three years, and dispite the popular myth that they are "excellent examples" - many are well shagged out, some so bad they are crushed as being unsellable.
Regarding "other" large vehicle fleets - I used to work on such large fleets, and was also involved in their technical documentation - and I can assure you, running in procedures were extremely rigidly enforced.
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My final piece of evidence I'd like to offer in the debate is my previous car - my Mk4 PD150 GTi golf.
Again, a standard car. Always serviced on the button, always allowed to fully warm up and cool down properly. But, totally leathered from new. Rolling roaded at our own golfgti.co.uk rolling road day at AMD - 186bhp and nearly 280ftlb's of torque - well above what it should have been churning out.
Now, I know PD engines are notorious for over-delivering, but most re-mappers claim only 190bhp as a stage one tune, and mine was turning out nearly that as a standard car.
So, I offer a potential link - ignore the run-in procedure, gain more power? It has worked for me (with no down-sides), I have driven and am still driving the evidence. I'll let you know if it's worked again, come mid-October-ish...
If you haven't read the RR article, check it out. I think my little standard diseasle held its own quite nicely...
http://www.golfgti.co.uk/viewpastevents.asp?eventID=42
All that proves is the wildly different variations, on a variety of different cars - on the impression that every engine should only produce exactly the same power, as was written on the "tin". Indeed, as you rightly intimated, it is well known that most VAG engines will easily offer more power than the rated output on the VIN sticker. The 1.8 20valve turbos were a classic example, with many TT 180 owners reporting figures extremely close to the "bigger" 225 motors. Same story with the S3s. You've also shown that some engines produce less than the rated power.
Now with this in mind, you can't claim that all those producing power in excess of the rated output were thrashed to hell from day one, whilst those which made less power were all run-in properly, and are "suffering because of that"! Indeed, I'd guess that many of those on the RR were maybe second owners, so it would be nigh-on impossible to account for the integrity of the running procedures. The ONLY thing which can be determined with any resonable confidence, is those that produce power above the rated output are regularly driven hard, and those that produce less power, are regularly driven like a granny. :nerd: