GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: Charged on 30 April 2007, 16:48
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Right, i'm thinking of getting an induction kit for my Rallye. I'm looking at either the SWG one with the twin cones or i've been recommended the BMC one by a friend. Does anyone on here know which would be the best option, or if there are better kits on the market? Or if I should even get a kit fitted in the first place?
Thanks in advance
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Just remembered a few other things I wanted to know:
1. I'm gonna get a full stainless system from manifold back, I'm thinking of getting a Supersprint one, is this a good idea or are there any other makes on the market that would do the job better?
2. I've noticed a few people on ebay selling their G60 heads as they've replaced theirs with a mk4 crossflow head. Will this head fit ok with the G60 gasket or will I need to buy a different one, if so which and are there any other modifications i'd have to do to fit this? Where can I get one of these heads from too, which model of Golf is it from?
3. I've had thoughts on maybe upgrading the forced induction sometime in the future, not a definite, just an idea. I want to stick with a supercharger rather than fit a turbo and apperently there's a Mercedes supercharger that can be fitted. Does anyone have any details about this or any other possible upgrades to replace the G-Ladder?
I know i've got more questions but these will do for now :wink:
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ok.. this might take some time..
Induction kits..
most of them are generically the same, jabbasport.. bbm.. whoever. big cone filter on a stainless L-bend with a heat shield. They make an awesome noise and you have the choice to retain your boost return.
the twin swg kits are very swish, and look stunning, but whether the gains reflect the cost is questionable. now these only work if you've deleted your boost return, which a lot of people do anyway as it stops the warm oily air going back into your charger. the 'charger actually uses this warm oily air to lubricate itself (oo-er missus).. so if you lose the boost return you have to spray the inside of the charger with a ptfe grease at regular intervals to keep the apex seals nice and supple.
i personally use a jabbasport type induction with the heat shield, and have retained my boost return, mainly because i use a 65mm pulley and want to keep it all lubricated as vw intended.
Exhausts! supersprint are fine.. i personally have a milltek system (not sure if you can get these any more) and i love the tailpipe design... the noise.. the fit.. well yeah, i like it a lot :grin: as with everything milltek though, they are a bit costly. darren at www.g-werks.com can sort you out a full system, and manifold for a rallye.. and i'm hearing good things about these.
Heads! the G60 head in standard form is no better flowing than a standard 8v GTI head, so its one of the mods that a lot of people put the most thought into. the choice of head can determine how the rest of your engine can be built up. now i may be wrong about this but i thought the crossflow head came from a new shape beetle, only available in the states, im not even sure if these are a direct fit so i cant answer your gasket question im afraid. (rubjonny may know!)
there are tons of good options though.. a simple port/polish.. or maybe tri-angle valves, or even a big valve head. there is the 16v head option, but with the work and parts required to do that conversion... you could do a 20v turbo swap (not that i would ever condone that in a rallye :laugh: )
Superchargers! now i dont know the current spec of your car so i'll assume you have 4 options. ill list them in order of guesstimated cost and power gain.
1) port/flow your current 'charger, use a smaller pulley (spins faster, more boost) and you could also use a toothed belt system to avoid belt slippage at high revs.
2) m62 eaton charger from a merc. good efficiency, reliable, no service worries like with the g-lader (this actually applies to options 3 & 4 too) im not sure if you can get an 'off-the-shelf' kit for this, but the boys at www.pitstopdevelopments.com can help you with that.
3) rotrex supercharger. as above but i think a little more efficient.. and higher cfm. think it would work out costing similarly to the eaton. storm developments have been working up a kit for this.
4) the daddy... the bahn brenner twinscrew lysholm! this thing sounds as sexy as it's name suggests. it can be mistaken for a police siren when backing off the revs.. i personally love it but you can buy a silencer kit for it (for the wimps)... yes thats right KIT . bahn brenner produce lots of lovely goodies for the G60 in kit form. the lysholm kit allegedly can be fitted by a compentent DIY'er in under 4 hours. you can get smaller pullies for these that can push out some silly psi. only downside? bahn brenner is based in america.. although they do have a couple of official UK importers.. maddogsyndicate, and yep.. g-werks of course :smiley:
im rather tired now..
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infact, im going to sticky this and make it a great big G60 discussion topic :laugh:
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As Above, personally I prefer to keep the boost return.
Have a read up here as well.
http://www.matey-matey.com/g60-guide.shtml
http://www.matey-matey.com/g60-tuning-guide.shtml
http://www.matey-matey.com/g60-rebuild-article.shtml
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Nice one Topher! Think i'm gonna get in touch with g-werks then. That bahn brenner twinscrew lysholm sounds interesting! :wink: Got my eyes on a new Beetle engine too so gonna go the crossflow route, seems to be the best option as it's been tried and tested as a good swap it seems, will see what Rubjonny says. Thanks for the info on the Induction too, had noticed that the boost return had been blocked off on the SWG advert, and if it's there for a reason I aint gonna remove it, BMC it is. :smiley:
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ok im bored, and this thread needs a kick up the arse.
so, cams! who is running what cam in their G ?
ive got a 275 with ecu software specfically written for it.. bit rich on idle but the power band at 5000rpm is rather nice :grin:
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Erm, I have one..it's a Piper I think, previous owner fitted it, will have to dig out paper work. Also rich on idle. I'll come back and edit the post when I find out exactly what it is !
:grin:
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i think i`ve got a big valve head with a 268 cam and a custom ecu, my powerband comes in at around 4k rpm but also got the tooth belt kit
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ok im bored, and this thread needs a kick up the arse.
so, cams! who is running what cam in their G ?
ive got a 275 with ecu software specfically written for it.. bit rich on idle but the power band at 5000rpm is rather nice :grin:
Erm I really don't know Tops. Standard. Although I do know Green Rallyes are faster - FACT!
(Oh, and a special request please. Can we lock Len out of this subject because all this information will harm him. Bless.)
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If I remember rightly from the reciepts I've got, mines got a G60 cam on it, whatever one of those is. :huh:
I didn't know you were running a 65mm toph. I've been thinking of going down to that myself.
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50mm on it's way! :wink:
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hmm. Is 65mm or below worth it without a flowed/big valve head or larger capacity?
Won't the ISV just bleed off any excess boost beyond +1bar or have had a remapped ecu or changed the map sensor ?
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ultimately a smaller pulley just means more air... so ideally yes you want it to flow more rather than just build up as unused boost. anything smaller than 65mm is pretty detrimental to the life of a g-lader though.
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Gibby, the camshaft is an Autotech G60 cam....
Autotech Sport 260° Hydro Camshaft
This sport hydraulic lifter camshaft was originally developed for use in Volkswagen G60 engines. The unique demands of a forced-induction engine require a special cam design to fully optimize power gains. Shorter duration with less overlap are key features in getting the biggest charge possible into the combustion chamber. Too much overlap will result in "wasted" intake air, literally running through the motor without being used. This cam is also suitable for use in Mk3 2.0L cars, as it is does not usually require updating the valve springs, or remapping of the car's ECU to run well. This camshaft will provide gains of approximately 10 horsepower on a G60 engine. The Autotech 260° Hydro Cam is ground on an OEM chill hardened billet. SportTuned Valve Springs are not required for every application but are highly recommended for the best top-end performance. Fits all 1.8L and 2.0L liter engines with hydraulic lifters, including crossflow heads. Lifetime warranty.
Asymmetric Lift: 0.421" Intake & 0.409" Exhaust
Duration: 260°/256° on 111° lobe center.
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Mine's a Kent Cam, but not sure off the top of my head which one. Running a 68mm Pulley with Custom ECU and toothed belt. Got a full Supersprint system too. Brand new bottom end too with everything lightened and balanced.
Getting myself an LSD in the next couple of months to try and smooth the power a bit and stop it spinning up all the time.........
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Nice info Nick (Yorkie), thanks. :cool: Where did you get all that info from ? Do you have any info on the Autothority chip ?
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Getting myself an LSD in the next couple of months to try and smooth the power a bit and stop it spinning up all the time.........
need 4wd mate :tongue:
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hmm. Is 65mm or below worth it without a flowed/big valve head or larger capacity?
Won't the ISV just bleed off any excess boost beyond +1bar or have had a remapped ecu or changed the map sensor ?
The Rallys have a Ecu that can cope with upto 2.5Bar of boost. A stock G-lader can give 0.6bar usual boost. The problem I have with ported chargers is the fact that if you have a normal G60 ECU it only copes with 1bar of boost which means that if you go beyond that the ISV will bleed it off to save your piston heads from cracking under too much pressure and not enough fuel! Thats why there is always talk about removing the ISV and drilling into the TB to stop the bleed off. Also ported airflow heads might only use small amounts of air being forced down to the valves, unless your valves are slightly bigger to suck the air instead of rushing past the valve.
I'm Considering a 68mm pulley as most of the euro boys say for short runs on 1.1 bar of boost the 68mm copes well and saves the charger meaning service of about 25,000miles if you go beyond that like a 65mm then your charger might last 10,000miles depending upon how you drive? If on the motorway doing 4000rpm+ 71-68mm pulleys are better for the whole engine as a daily. If you drive short distances, weekends, rev high and stop start 65mm is fine.
I still think if I had the cash that a 2.0ltr block would cope better and use the extra boost without detonation or stress on 1bar! :laugh:
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Full-Range Programming: The only truly full-range programming in the industry, AutoThority provides refinement and drive-ability second to none. Your car feels smoother, quicker, and more exciting under all conditions.
‘Soft’ Rev-limiter: AutoThority typically raises the factory rev-limiter slightly to extend the engine’s operating range. Mainly intended for track and auto-cross use, as a way to ‘hold a gear’ during a curve, etc. our exclusive ‘soft’ rev-limiter offers better feel than stock and is much healthier for the engine.
We are often asked why our E-Proms out perform the factory's and additionally why they out perform our competition. A Bosch Motronic E-Prom contains ignition timing and fuel injection metering information located on two three-dimensional maps. The factory has to tune for the lowest common denominators of these two factors and therefore leaves a certain amount of room for improvement. By assuming a high grade of fuel (92 octane minimum) and a good state of tune, we are able to modify these maps to optimize power and torque as well as throttle response and overall drivability. We distinguish ourselves from our competition through our exclusive Graphics Tuning Software package which allows us to retune the entire operating range of the engine. The full throttle map reflects the engine's tuning when "the pedal is to the metal". It is the place every tuner modifies and the place where we spend the least amount of time. The part throttle realm on the other hand, is the place where you spend the vast majority of your driving and is where we concentrate the most time and effort to re-map. The idle mapping we leave alone so that tune-up and maintenance remain identical to stock.
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Full-Range Programming: The only truly full-range programming in the industry, AutoThority provides refinement and drive-ability second to none. Your car feels smoother, quicker, and more exciting under all conditions.
‘Soft’ Rev-limiter: AutoThority typically raises the factory rev-limiter slightly to extend the engine’s operating range. Mainly intended for track and auto-cross use, as a way to ‘hold a gear’ during a curve, etc. our exclusive ‘soft’ rev-limiter offers better feel than stock and is much healthier for the engine.
We are often asked why our E-Proms out perform the factory's and additionally why they out perform our competition. A Bosch Motronic E-Prom contains ignition timing and fuel injection metering information located on two three-dimensional maps. The factory has to tune for the lowest common denominators of these two factors and therefore leaves a certain amount of room for improvement. By assuming a high grade of fuel (92 octane minimum) and a good state of tune, we are able to modify these maps to optimize power and torque as well as throttle response and overall drivability. We distinguish ourselves from our competition through our exclusive Graphics Tuning Software package which allows us to retune the entire operating range of the engine. The full throttle map reflects the engine's tuning when "the pedal is to the metal". It is the place every tuner modifies and the place where we spend the least amount of time. The part throttle realm on the other hand, is the place where you spend the vast majority of your driving and is where we concentrate the most time and effort to re-map. The idle mapping we leave alone so that tune-up and maintenance remain identical to stock.
Nick what variables do you look at when it comes down to air temperature or is it just within a set range?
what system do you use when remapp or is it pure ecu sensor feed back?
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I'm Considering a 68mm pulley as most of the euro boys say for short runs on 1.1 bar of boost the 68mm copes well and saves the charger meaning service of about 25,000miles if you go beyond that like a 65mm then your charger might last 10,000miles depending upon how you drive? If on the motorway doing 4000rpm+ 71-68mm pulleys are better for the whole engine as a daily. If you drive short distances, weekends, rev high and stop start 65mm is fine.
I still think if I had the cash that a 2.0ltr block would cope better and use the extra boost without detonation or stress on 1bar! :laugh:
Do you mean bore out the G60 engine to 2L or just fit a 2L bottom end from a later model? Reason I ask is because i've heard that the G60 Rallye engine is one of the strongest engines VW has made so it wouldn't be beneficial to fit a 2L from a weaker engine. Am I correct in saying this? If I wanted to how much am I looking at to get mine bored out to 2L including uprated pistons etc?
Also another question about the crossflow head. I've just bought a 2003 Beetle 2L engine with the crossflow head, do I just need to change the head or will i need the distributor and any other bits from the Beetle engine to get it fitted ok? Also do I need a custom gasket for this? Where's best to go to get my head gas-flowed, ported and polished as i'm gonna do this before I do the exchange?..
Again, thanks in advance :wink: :smiley:
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Do you mean bore out the G60 engine to 2L or just fit a 2L bottom end from a later model? Reason I ask is because i've heard that the G60 Rallye engine is one of the strongest engines VW has made so it wouldn't be beneficial to fit a 2L from a weaker engine. Am I correct in saying this? If I wanted to how much am I looking at to get mine bored out to 2L including uprated pistons etc?
Also another question about the crossflow head. I've just bought a 2003 Beetle 2L engine with the crossflow head, do I just need to change the head or will i need the distributor and any other bits from the Beetle engine to get it fitted ok? Also do I need a custom gasket for this? Where's best to go to get my head gas-flowed, ported and polished as i'm gonna do this before I do the exchange?..
Again, thanks in advance :wink: :smiley:
Well I meant the Rallye block is good, but still the thickness of those block walls still need a margin for stress so would love to bore out to 2.0ltre, but 1.9 is realistic and replace with Rossniers or JE or forged KR piston sets, cost wise Germany for about 350-450 notes for a set. Then valves, guides, cams, flywheels and sumps the usual sundries another £500.00. The labour is what kills us as companies who use CNC precision machines can minimise the hairline fractures on the porting by adding the required pressure/load to shave those vital bits of metal down to the last micron. I guess if your motor is in good nick they can re-use most bits, but like I said if money was no object I would just get a whole block from low miles (PG 16V off a limted) and rebuild with the fore mentioned specs. Hence VR conversion are popular, but a well sorted 8v or 16v lump will be better on fuel and reliability some will say even faster if balanced correctly as they weigh less than a VR6 block.
Miss conception about ported heads does not require bigger gaskets as the block stays the same dimentions outside internally is where the changes happen. Well with all types of modifcation to get the best out of it and running well your gonna need timming and fuelling issues sorted out with remapps and bigger injectors to get over the 250BHP barrier. I would not consider spanking money unless I had about 1.5K in the bank to spend on a block mods.
Pm if you need quality chaps who do this every day they are better advised than I for your personal set ups?
Jay
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Ok, lets talk about gear ratios and LSDs. The first and second ratios in a G60 are just plain daft. Whats the crack with using a VR6 box to swap 1st and 2nd over?
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Ok, lets talk about gear ratios and LSDs. The first and second ratios in a G60 are just plain daft. Whats the crack with using a VR6 box to swap 1st and 2nd over?
Well all I know is the people who run VR6 cogs with the final drive will make the rev band longer between change ups. This might mean faster speed per ratio, but on the final gear it will bottom out just like your G60 box would.
The input shaft 1st and second is proberly what your looking for to imrove the short 2nd.But like I said the input shaft as one unit might be better or easier to swap out on your running gear. The tools involved to get exactly what you want i.e a hybrid G60/Vr6 would be painfull to get right as you can imagine. Some companies offer this service with tried and tested ratios and yes not cheap fella approx over £1000 for custom LSD rebuilds.
What kind of speeds are you hitting in second?
Jay
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Pricey! for a rebuild with a £400 ish LSD as well then.
Yeah the second is way too short. By the time you have wheels spin under control it is time to shift up! lol. not sure of exact speeds as clock is in kph and I'm concentrating on not hitting the limitier!
:smiley:
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Pricey! for a rebuild with a £400 ish LSD as well then.
Yeah the second is way too short. By the time you have wheels spin under control it is time to shift up! lol. not sure of exact speeds as clock is in kph and I'm concentrating on not hitting the limitier!
:smiley:
Some chaps are running cogs from the TDI's apperently much longer ratio than the VR6? Also cheaper!
Part numbers, but I haven't done this mod yet myself I might if it goes well on yours matey.
Not bad money and the change out can be done bellow without box pull out.
The benifits are known more for crusin in 5th gear.
02A 311 361 M £59.80
02A 311 158 R £94.21
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I've got an Autothority chip on mine and I can reach just under 100kpm (about 60 mph) in second gear before hitting the limiter.
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after very serious consideration i have decided id like to G60 my mk2 1990 8 gti, after searching i found it inconclusive what was needed for a complete swop.
Now if i get an engine with charger and intake all attached, Gearbox attached and wiring looms what else is needed?
stuff i think may be required: Driveshafts, Hubs, Radiator, Fan, Cooling system, clutch cable, accelerator cable, steering rack. steering coloum and dials?
is there anything on my current 1990 8v engine (PB) that can be used ie, intake manifold exhaust manifold.. anything really. thanks
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after very serious consideration i have decided id like to G60 my mk2 1990 8 gti, after searching i found it inconclusive what was needed for a complete swop.
Now if i get an engine with charger and intake all attached, Gearbox attached and wiring looms what else is needed?
stuff i think may be required: Driveshafts, Hubs, Radiator, Fan, Cooling system, clutch cable, accelerator cable, steering rack. steering coloum and dials?
is there anything on my current 1990 8v engine (PB) that can be used ie, intake manifold exhaust manifold.. anything really. thanks
It might be cheaper to find a G60 lump, ECU with charger brackets than go down the BBM route?
Jay
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sorry for sounding completly thick.. BBM?
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BBM (Bahn Brenner Motorsport) is a company that makes brackets for the conversion into G60, but not sure if they still do them due to the cost and demand for chargers falling or lack of good ones. the last time I checked they still do a kit for a 16V Gti and a MkIII not based upon a G60 though a charger called Lysholm screw chargers more reliable than G60.
Still think you can pick a G60 engine up and you can sort the charger out from Germany for about £400-£500. You have to remember your standard 8V will have different compression on conrods and piston set up (HEAD) Hence cheaper to get a block with head already in place.
Jay
:smiley:
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Has anyone else seen the Ralley on ebay priced at around £11000. I though this was a bit overpriced, what is your thoughts. How often have you guys seen one like this coming along. I'm tempted to go for it but not quite financially ready
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Has anyone else seen the Ralley on ebay priced at around £11000. I though this was a bit overpriced, what is your thoughts. How often have you guys seen one like this coming along. I'm tempted to go for it but not quite financially ready
But mine better spec and the 11Kone was a bit suspect as it was never registered in the UK.
Jay
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Anyone fancy talking solid charger belt tensioners, and whats involved with using the rigging screw method? :smiley:
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if your putting a G60 out of a corrado into a post 90 spec Golf, in order for the rev counter to work... run a wire from the positive side of the coil to, Pin12 on G1.. this is a white plug on the back of the fusebored. its a green wire with yellow trace you need to chop.
just some info as took me a little time to work this out.