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General => General discussion => Topic started by: Martz on 21 February 2007, 09:16
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The e-petition asking the Prime Minister to "Scrap the planned vehicle tracking and road pricing policy" has now closed. This is a response from the Prime Minister, Tony Blair.
Thank you for taking the time to register your views about road pricing on the Downing Street website.
This petition was posted shortly before we published the Eddington Study, an independent review of Britain's transport network. This study set out long-term challenges and options for our transport network.
It made clear that congestion is a major problem to which there is no easy answer. One aspect of the study was highlighting how road pricing could provide a solution to these problems and that advances in technology put these plans within our reach. Of course it would be ten years or more before any national scheme was technologically, never mind politically, feasible.
That is the backdrop to this issue. As my response makes clear, this is not about imposing "stealth taxes" or introducing "Big Brother" surveillance. This is a complex subject, which cannot be resolved without a thorough investigation of all the options, combined with a full and frank debate about the choices we face at a local and national level. That's why I hope this detailed response will address your concerns and set out how we intend to take this issue forward. I see this email as the beginning, not the end of the debate, and the links below provide an opportunity for you to take it further.
But let me be clear straight away: we have not made any decision about national road pricing. Indeed we are simply not yet in a position to do so. We are, for now, working with some local authorities that are interested in establishing local schemes to help address local congestion problems. Pricing is not being forced on any area, but any schemes would teach us more about how road pricing would work and inform decisions on a national scheme. And funds raised from these local schemes will be used to improve transport in those areas.
One thing I suspect we can all agree is that congestion is bad. It's bad for business because it disrupts the delivery of goods and services. It affects people's quality of life. And it is bad for the environment. That is why tackling congestion is a key priority for any Government.
Congestion is predicted to increase by 25% by 2015. This is being driven by economic prosperity. There are 6 million more vehicles on the road now than in 1997, and predictions are that this trend will continue.
Part of the solution is to improve public transport, and to make the most of the existing road network. We have more than doubled investment since 1997, spending £2.5 billion this year on buses and over £4 billion on trains - helping to explain why more people are using them than for decades. And we're committed to sustaining this investment, with over £140 billion of investment planned between now and 2015. We're also putting a great deal of effort into improving traffic flows - for example, over 1000 Highways Agency Traffic Officers now help to keep motorway traffic moving.
But all the evidence shows that improving public transport and tackling traffic bottlenecks will not by themselves prevent congestion getting worse. So we have a difficult choice to make about how we tackle the expected increase in congestion. This is a challenge that all political leaders have to face up to, and not just in the UK. For example, road pricing schemes are already in operation in Italy, Norway and Singapore, and others, such as the Netherlands, are developing schemes. Towns and cities across the world are looking at road pricing as a means of addressing congestion.
One option would be to allow congestion to grow unchecked. Given the forecast growth in traffic, doing nothing would mean that journeys within and between cities would take longer, and be less reliable. I think that would be bad for businesses, individuals and the environment. And the costs on us all will be real - congestion could cost an extra £22 billion in wasted time in England by 2025, of which £10-12 billion would be the direct cost on businesses.
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A second option would be to try to build our way out of congestion. We could, of course, add new lanes to our motorways, widen roads in our congested city centres, and build new routes across the countryside. Certainly in some places new capacity will be part of the story. That is why we are widening the M25, M1 and M62. But I think people agree that we cannot simply build more and more roads, particularly when the evidence suggests that traffic quickly grows to fill any new capacity.
Tackling congestion in this way would also be extremely costly, requiring substantial sums to be diverted from other services such as education and health, or increases in taxes. If I tell you that one mile of new motorway costs as much as £30m, you'll have an idea of the sums this approach would entail.
That is why I believe that at least we need to explore the contribution road pricing can make to tackling congestion. It would not be in anyone's interests, especially those of motorists, to slam the door shut on road pricing without exploring it further.
It has been calculated that a national scheme - as part of a wider package of measures - could cut congestion significantly through small changes in our overall travel patterns. But any technology used would have to give definite guarantees about privacy being protected - as it should be. Existing technologies, such as mobile phones and pay-as-you-drive insurance schemes, may well be able to play a role here, by ensuring that the Government doesn't hold information about where vehicles have been. But there may also be opportunities presented by developments in new technology. Just as new medical technology is changing the NHS, so there will be changes in the transport sector. Our aim is to relieve traffic jams, not create a "Big Brother" society.
I know many people's biggest worry about road pricing is that it will be a "stealth tax" on motorists. It won't. Road pricing is about tackling congestion.
Clearly if we decided to move towards a system of national road pricing, there could be a case for moving away from the current system of motoring taxation. This could mean that those who use their car less, or can travel at less congested times, in less congested areas, for example in rural areas, would benefit from lower motoring costs overall. Those who travel longer distances at peak times and in more congested areas would pay more. But those are decisions for the future. At this stage, when no firm decision has been taken as to whether we will move towards a national scheme, stories about possible costs are simply not credible, since they depend on so many variables yet to be investigated, never mind decided.
Before we take any decisions about a national pricing scheme, we know that we have to have a system that works. A system that respects our privacy as individuals. A system that is fair. I fully accept that we don't have all the answers yet. That is why we are not rushing headlong into a national road pricing scheme. Before we take any decisions there would be further consultations. The public will, of course, have their say, as will Parliament.
We want to continue this debate, so that we can build a consensus around the best way to reduce congestion, protect the environment and support our businesses. If you want to find out more, please visit the attached links to more detailed information, and which also give opportunities to engage in further debate.
Yours sincerely,
Tony Blair
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If Congestion is so bad for business, Why take it out on the business man whos trying to get into london to Work in the first place? Thats like killing the dog because your running out of Dog food. You will have plenty of dog food afterwards, but nothing todo with it.
I drive 15minites to work at rush hour, Not becasuse i want too, But becuase if i dont, i wont get to work in time, and get fired.
And whats with the whole "Italy blah blah blah" are doing it. Well thats hardly an excuse. "Sorry i killed that man your honer, But harrald shipman did it so i thought i might too"?
10 Years until it comes into play, well heres an idea. Vote in a political party that wont do it.
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I think they have realised that it can be used as a "Big Brother" tool and therefore will fall foul of Human Rights Laws.
I see that as a climbdown. A Minister was on the News last night and he was saying it wouldnt be after the next general election, but either after the next or even the election after that! so 12 plus years from now.
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Whatever, the conservatives will prob scrap it anyway.
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Always supported Labour when I was naive and younger - born in 1975 so had the misfortune to grow up under Thatcher and that other guy who came after her... however, the Iraq war and these stealth taxes are really beginning to p155 me off - I mean they may as well get rid of these taxes and bring in 1970's Labour style income tax rises which would have the same effect - might even make us better off!
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i can't be arsed to read thah but my guess is it says...
" drop 'em and get your wallet out cos you're getting fooked and paying for it".
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Believe me they are both as bad as one another!
The Tories would definitely gone to war with the Americans!
The real danger is that they have pumped a lot of money into the road based hardware for this system that it will be a big temptation for any party to use it!
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Believe me they are both as bad as one another!
The Tories would definitely gone to war with the Americans!
The real danger is that they have pumped a lot of money into the road based hardware for this system that it will be a big temptation for any party to use it!
Yes you're right about the iraq war, but at least they wouldn't be taxing us through the back-door... and ok the NHS might not have survived but then just be careful not to get ill or hurt :grin:
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We already do pay road tax by the mile Have you seen the price of fuel? also the money raised will go back into public transport as this is the real reason traffic is increasing because it's sh!te, dirty, unreliable and as good as useless so people use their cars, or another war, instead of making the roads better, maybe if the roads were better people wouldn't mind so much.
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I think if this government brings in road charging (should be called "Charging even more to use the roads") it will be the end of them, they want us to use "public transport" and theres no such thing anymore as the company's are owned by shareholders and any proffits made will go in the pockets of these people instead of being used to maintain and improve the service. I have no idea where all this will end but as a motorist I'm sick of being screwed into the ground year after year because I want and need a car. The sad fact is that this government has created a situation where your better off if your a lazy b@stard who spends your whole life living on benefits, in work the other day we had a guy stood at the reception desk after getting fined by the court for whatever he did. Someone with a foreign accent walked by so he started ranting and raving about immigrants being a drain on tax's and when he was asked how he'd like to pay his fine he said "stop it out of my benefits", just about says it all really. The harder you work and try to get by the more you have taken off you and given to lazy f*ckers who think that living on benefits is a life style choice.
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The big point that this bumbling idiot of a prime minister (diliberate use of lower case there!) we have seems to think that cars are used solely from getting from A to B. I'm sure that neither he, nor his band of idiotic droogs ever lay thought to the fact that there are thousands (if not millions, judging by the response to the petition) of people in this country that enjoy driving and actually, GOD FORBID, drive for pleasure and a bit of fun.
I live about 13 miles from where I work, but to get there using public transport I would have to take two trains and then two buses (and none of this in a rural area either). Well that's real progression with the transport system, money well spent, I say!!! These great minded politicians think that we all work within one short bus/train journey from our work, but this just isn't the case!
And as for charging people on the congested roads at peak times of the day, well that's just another way of targeting the honest man/woman that gets off their arse and does an honest days graft!!! as Uruk Hai says "this government has created a situation where your better off if your a lazy b@stard who spends your whole life living on benefits".
What a sad, sad state this country has plummeted into, since Labour took power!!!
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True about the transport system. I work 6 miles away and by car it is 15-20mins but 'pubic' transport it is 1hour 15mins.
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A couple of points to make really, the only way that this could ever be done is if the infrastructure of public transport (i.e. buses, trams, trains etc) is improved, otherwise it becomes increasingly difficult for people to get to work as already mentioned by a couple of people. If I was to stay at home and cook crack cocaine and sell it on the street then I'd be ok, but it just becomes more difficult for people to get off their @rses and get to work. Who's going to want to go to work for say 12k in the city centre when it costs them £50+ a week to get there and park etc. The only reason that the congestion charge can work in London is because this infrastructure already exists, and why would anyone want to drive through London anyway. :shocked: Another thing, it used to be £5 and now it's £8, I don't recall getting an increase in my pay packet of 60% and I bet no one living and working in London did either.
Another point, they will always hide behind "Global warming", but if it's introduced, why should it cost more to drive at peak times than out of peak times, does my car make less polution between the hours of 9am to 3pm ! I think not. :huh:
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The existing Rail network is virtually at capacity with its present control systems. If they invest eventually in the European system they will be able to run more trains closer together. NR has a programme to do this work but at this stage we are only at the pilot/test stage with two schemes just being started. If it proves workable it would take at least 20 years to convert the whole country.
So basically I am saying forget rail, what we got now is the best its gonna be for the forseeable future!
Big cities can go down the tram/light rail route. But those schemes have been fraught with problems, some work well others dont.
So the Government knows that we have no real alternative to road. Buses can be improved, but it mainly rests with the car. So they can basically do what they want.
Oh and to the Labour knockers - the reason the rail network is in the state it is in now is all down to the Tories! First in 1963 when Beaching wielded his axe and again in the late 80's early 90's when investment was cut, then it was sold off by Thatcher!
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It is an obvious revenue making exercise, the sad thing is it will have a severe impact on the poorer elements of our society. Wealthy people aren't going to be bothered about an extra few pounds here and there, but there are many people who struggle to make a living at the moment without the threat of living expenses increasing still further.
The 'use public transport' arguement doesn't really work as outlined above in a couple of very good posts. Of course there are environmental issues to consider, but I saw a documentary a couple of days ago which stated that the cattle population of the world produce more greenhouse gasses than fossil fuel burning transport, the figure was crazy something like 6x.
There is also plenty of oil despite what the oil and petrol companies say, they just love telling you all its running out before sitting back and watching their profits go through the roof.
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Okay. So heres the million dollar Question...
If everybody hates blair and Labour.....
WHO THE f**k KEEPS VOTING FOR THEM THEN!!!!????!!!
I dont know one persion whos happy with the goverment, But obviously sombody is, or they wouldnt keep getting into power like this. So what the hell is going on?
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I think we are missing the bigger issue here.
I can see pros and cons to road charging but what I object to is the method they propose to use to make the charges.
As I understand it they are proposing to fit all cars with a GPS transmitter to log road use.
How long will it be before they also use this method to catch you speeding anywhere any time or just to find out where you are?
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If you go back to when thatcher was in power take the year 1987 petrol was 37 pence per litre, there were national speed limits everywhere, and there were NO GATSOS OR SAFETY CAMERA VANS, or cycle lanes or bus lanes, and kids learned the green cross code!
Now we have serious congestion problems not supprising when they have replacing normal carageway with a bus lanes and have cheveron some duel carrageways into one lane and have dropped the speed limits on nearly every road in the uk!
Plus have saturated the roads with mini roundabouts, and traffic lights, they have also made many streets one way or added ring roads so you have to go the long way around to get to a place which use to take less than one miniute now takes longer depending on how long the ring road diversion is!
The uk law and tax systems are a joke!
As for congestion, the government love it! when petrol costs are as high as ours and concidering how much petrol millions of cars waste idling in traffic, add how much extra revenue the government is having from that wasted fuel, not to mension how much pollution that creates so they can then slap the driver with even higher taxes due to pollution caused by congestion hense congestion charge!
The same goes for speeding to them it's ok if you speed through a gatso or safety camera van aslong as you pay the ticket!
At the end of the day they preach speed kills, yet they don't stop you from speeding and commiting the offence in the first place, and also i have yet to see a safety camera van witness an accident caused by a speeding driver, concidering they are catching millions of drivers where are the accidents if speed is a factor!
surely one camera van operator has seen an accident happen when catching the speeding drivers!!
Obviously not the only thing theses vans are seeing is cars going at a speed which is suitable for both the car and the roads capabilities, after all were in 2007, and looking back to the 1980's we never had theses damn speed obsessed groups like brake who want to fcuk up driving for every driver in the uk!
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I think dubtub has hit the nail on the head, Labour are suppose to be a party for the working class man and yet every kind of tax or charge that they introduce just screws those who can least afford it. I think its quite possible that some people who are earning barely more than they could receive on benefits will be forced into a situation where they end up having to give up there jobs as they will no longer be able to meet the cost of owning the car they need to get to work. To try answer Fielders question of who is voting for Labour considering we all seem to hate them, I think they're getting a few votes from the people who want to carry on living off benefits and have no intention of actually earning there money as long as they have a hole in there ass !