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General => General discussion => Topic started by: Cass on 29 January 2007, 22:50
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Pistonheads story here:
http://www.pistonheads.com:80/news/default.asp?storyId=15784
Cass
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This can only be a good thing for all concerned. :cool:
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The koreans wont be happy!
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Interesting. Would be good if some of the Lotus chassis enginnering talent makes it too new VWs
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tuned golf GT engined elise anyone? W12 esprite replacment? :laugh:
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The koreans wont be happy!
Why? They're being bought too, it's not like they're not used to it either GM has owned them up till now. I'm sure Vw know what they're at and some of their concepts have been along a similar vein to lightweight lotus' - my only concern is that all the great ideas Mike Kimberley has been bringing on board will be held up. I would love to see a lotus polo though :smiley:
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tuned golf GT engined elise anyone? W12 esprite replacment? :laugh:
Not sure how many on here are aware, but a credible VAG engine conversion is already underway for the Elise. Chap called Bernard Scouse, trading as Auto Teknix, has installed an Audi engine, think it's the 1.8T base with bigger turbo etc. Offers a "basic" 250bhp version, with an alternative 300bhp - this in a car weighing about the same as a Mk1 Golf Gti - truly inspired!!!
http://www.auto-teknix.co.uk/audi-conv.htm (http://www.auto-teknix.co.uk/audi-conv.htm)
Quite a neat install, and increasingly catching the eye of us Elise owners who want something a bit more flexible than the now common Honda Type R engine conversion (in itself, a great solution well matched to Elise dynamics but no simple forced induction upgrades available IIRC...hence the Audi/VW/Seat/Skoda 1.8T unit starting to look attractive). This has increased in profile in light of the demise of Rover and the K series (fitted to the bulk of Elises but withdrawn in the last 6 months with arrival of new base Elise S with 140bhp Toyota engine)
Over on the Scottish Elises forum, we like to refer to it as the "Skoda conversion" :-)
So perhaps it will eventually come direct from VW with a warranty [when h£ll freezes over!]
I am personally pretty comfortable with the VW stake in Proton / Lotus, not least because we own a VW and a Lotus :-) But VW strike me as a steady, well managed outfit who are increasingly looking to hone a sporting brand, so hopefully Lotus fits in nicely. I imagine the Elise has a strong future, not so sure about Esprit with the R8 on the starting blocks but we'll see...
For info, here is our Lotus community take on the same story ;-) :
http://www.scottishelises.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=5662 (http://www.scottishelises.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=5662)
Campbell
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Personally I don't like the sound of using the 1.8t engine at all. They say a 40kg increase isn't much but I beg to differ, it's almost the weight of the complete engine & gearbox in the car in my sig! The weight's added to the wrong place too, up high near the back of the car which more or less equates to snappier oversteer. Couple that with a turbo and lag, which again won't suit the car IMO - there's no need for all that torque in a car as light as an elise.
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Interesting observations, and all valid points. The VAG 1.8T is proving more popular due to wider prevalence of available units, and better future availability of parts. Honda VTECs have begun to change to new architectures, I think, so parts for earlier ex-write-off engines will become harder to source. Yet there are soooo many VAG 1.8T units going around, and still being fitted in new cars today.
However on the weight thing, do also think of the following contexts...
I guess the lightest driver weighs around 60kg. I am probably around 70, and still pretty average. I know many Elise owners who weigh a good deal more than me, so let's say they get as far as 90-100kg. At which point you have already created an extra 30kg weight purely in the driver ;-) The Elise will have been designed for this variation from the outset, as are all cars.
Next up, consider the use of the boot (yes, it does have one!). Fully packed you could easily have 20kg in there. And yes most of us will travel with empty or near-empty boot, many of the guys I know take their Elises on European trips with plenty tools and backups in the boot so a few kg will always be sloshing around Again, the car has this tolerance designed in.
Finally, variation in fuel tank load will also range from practically 0kg to maybe 25kg (think petrol is lighter than water so the 37 litre tank will only ever weigh maybe 25-30 when full). Again, this has to be built into the design parameters of the original car.
My understanding is that the Honda conversion amounts to approx 30-40kg increase in engine/gearbox weight also, and the general consensus is there is no material affect on the handling of the car. And naturally, power to weight improves markedly despite the extra mass. One key point to note is, the Honda tuners have all come round to the importance of a minor change to the rear spring rates, which I think they take up by a few pounds to prevent the car "bogging down" when moving away from standstill. Feedback from a couple of guys I know who've applied this is very positive, and they say it dials out any weight effects they ever noticed.
And whilst the weight increases are indeed behind the central axis of the car, they are still within the axles - it's mid-engined after all.
I see you have a neat wee Se7en in your signature...so I realise you do know your stuff when it comes to lightweight cars, but bear in mind the Se7en is TRULY lightweight and 40kg there is a huge proportion! Practical feedback says 40kg in the Elise world is not a crisis...and since the earliest S1 weighed 720kg and the latest nearly 750kg (if you fit the hardtop etc), this just becomes lost in the noise.
Campbell
PS - I don't have a converted Elise, and mine is a "mid-life" S1 with no significant mods, so I have no axe to grind...just enjoying watching the engine conversion debate in case my K series blows up one day and I need/fancy something a bit different ;-)
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One of the first pistonheads runs i went on was frequented by a guy running a tuned (read approx 300bhp) 1.8t VAG lump in a carbon-bodied exige, and it was easily the quickest car of the day, truly stunning.
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Was at Castle Combe last year and saw 2 Elises in the car park that both had Audi engines in.
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I understand your point campbell, and it's 2 valid ways of tackling the same problem, however I stand by what I said, more power only makes you faster on the straights, a lighter car makes you faster everywhere. With an elise to say a little weight here or there won't make any difference is fine until you end up with something the weight of a boxter or whatever - and then where does that put lotus? Do you think they can compete on those grounds - do you think they'd want to?
As for the engine itself, sure it's been used in a lot of cars we're talking about vw here :laugh: It's not that it's not a good engine, it's just not suited at all to an elise, and IMO it hardly has the most inspiring engine note - no offence to any 1.8t's on here :smiley:
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With an elise to say a little weight here or there won't make any difference is fine until you end up with something the weight of a boxter or whatever - and then where does that put lotus? Do you think they can compete on those grounds - do you think they'd want to?
As for the engine itself, sure it's been used in a lot of cars we're talking about vw here :laugh: It's not that it's not a good engine, it's just not suited at all to an elise, and IMO it hardly has the most inspiring engine note - no offence to any 1.8t's on here :smiley:
Mark,
LOL! Great answer. If you watch the "Making of the Elise" video, you'll see the classic Lotus debate of how extra weight spawns yet more extra weight, so I am fully with you on your point about ending up with a Boxster Bloater. However, isolated aftermarket upgrades like engine changes are different, IMHO, and in many cases the people doing it are already fast around corners but DO need a bit more on the straights! I must must must put you in touch with one of our legendary members, David "Tut" Duncan, who wrote the book on trying to outdrag Scoobies on the long uphill pit straight at Knockhill, in his original 118bhp Elise! He now has a Honda JDM conversion and never looked back...
Now, if VAG were to influence future Elise development by suggesting a new powerplant weighing considerably more than the current Toyota unit, that could well be a sad day. However I have to say that EU Legislators will probably have more negative impact on future vehicle weight than the manufacturers.
And as for engine note, you'd be amazed what you can do with the short travel Elise exhaust systems!
Campbell
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I'm not saying an elise couldn't do with more power, just the way that power is delivered. I'd far sooner go for a honda type r - very light and revvy which is what you want in a car like that IMO. Keeping the engine normally aspirated keeps the torque similar to what the car is used to so you don't need to go beefing up the chassis etc.
Also on the straights a lighter car doesn't just give you a better power to weight ratio (which best case scenario is all more power offers) - with a lighter car you're effectively making straights longer since you can brake later and get on the power faster - so you're on the power for. For instance on track a 140bhp/450kg car like mine will make bits of something with twice the power and weight (a portly 280bhp elise? :laugh:) even though both cars would have the same power to weight ratio.
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Agreed Mark.
Of course always the small matter of the power hungry who simply want more grunt on road, at which point the nuances of track bias fade away in favour of general practicality etc. Eg, I for one prefer a torquey car to a revvy one, so a light pressure turbo solution might suit me.
Indeed, after driving our 150 tdi pd Anni Golf for 4 years, I find it hard to rev any car beyond about 3k rpm these days, out of sheer sympathy!!
Fortunately, my S1 Elise remains broadly as standard other than improved throttle body, filter panel and exhaust, brakes and suspension. So its K series is torquey enough for most of my needs...though I am in fact about to put a very mildly uprated cylinder head onto it just to freshen up the experience...I've had it over 7 years, after all :-)
cheers
Campbell
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at which point the nuances of track bias fade away in favour of general practicality etc. Eg, I for one prefer a torquey car to a revvy one, so a light pressure turbo solution might suit me.
You won't be wanting an elise then :grin: Anyway I think we've both made our points, I do agree with everything you've said, we just have different tastes :smiley: