GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => Car audio => Topic started by: Scott_150 on 07 January 2007, 23:26
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Hi,
Was just wondering if the standard speaker in the mk4 golf SE could hack having their own amp? i dont know what wattage they are or anything- i was tihnking of getting a sub or two amping them then having seperate amps to my speakers..they are the original speakers. Would this work?
If not could you tell me what speakers i should get to replace them?
any advise would be appreciated im a newbie to the ice world atm! lol
Thank!
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Sorry mate, what Mk Golf is it?
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Sorry thought i had put that lol its a mk4 1.6 16v SE its got 8 speakers as standard.
Cheers
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Standard speakers would probably benefit sound quality-wise from being amped seperately, but doing this depends upon how they are wired up.
You say it has 8 speakers? I'm not familiar with the Mk4, but most headunits have 4 channels, so you need to work out which channels power which speakers before you decide what to do. The front L+R channels most likely power your front mids and tweeters - these are the ones that would be worth amping. Lots of people only run front speakers and a sub, with very impressive results.
Because standard speakers are more sensitive (more sound from less input power), just be careful when setting the gains on the amp. If you want to replace your speakers, you'll need a budget to work to, to stop things getting out of control!
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yeah there are 8, if i remember right- two in front doors and two in front door pillars, then two in rear doors and two near door handles. I just dont want to blow them! lol i may just take it into local ice shop and get them to do it just thought it would be better doing it myself! - i just dont want to blow them all lol
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OK, Digipants has it bang on - there are four channels output from the factory headunit, which in turn are split high/low for a pair of mid's and tweets in each corner of the car. IIRC on the mk4 the crossover (which splits the signal hi/low) is actually part of the mid range woofer - therefore you have two (full-range) signal wires from the headunit to the x/over (located on the speaker basket), and then two go to the mid range woofer itself, another two shoot off in the direction of the tweeter.
As such, a standard four channel amplifier (or two, if you wish to just amplify the fronts) is easy to set up, however I'm unsure of the system expansion possibilities of your specific headunit; I know for a fact you can buy adapters that will give you at least one low-level (un-amplified) output, but I'm unsure if there is an adapter that will give you 3 sets (front, rear, sub). As such, if you want to retain the ability to fade your sound (front to rear) from the head unit, you're going to have to look for an amplifier with high level (speaker) input terminals.
However, I respectfully have some recommendations before you take this route;
Before looking at amplifying your full range speakers, look at adding a subwoofer. Your standard factory fit speakers are never going to produce earth-shattering low's, even when amplified. Low range notes are produced, in essence, by moving a lot of air, hence a large cone area or a long cone exertion within its chassis are required - your standard speakers are not capable of either.
Now, when you add a sub to take care of the low stuff you can then filter out these low-end frequencies (using capacitors) from your full range speakers. This will allow you to drive your factory speakers harder before they start to croak; Make them twice as effecient and you can work them twice as hard.
A sub amp can easily be added to your existing headunit and would be installable (even for a novice) in a couple of hours.
Allow the balance of the day for filtering out your existing speakers (you do need to get to them afterall, which takes some time - allow an hour per corner of the car).
Next I would look at changing your head unit - future system expansion will be made considerably easier with high quality (and hi-voltage) pre-outs. Furthermore, the quality of signal output is going to be much higher, another factor that decides the ceiling of non-distorted sound; there's no point having a speaker set up capable of producing clear and devestating sound if the signal they're being fed is total garbage.
This also gives the ability to play MP3 cd's or connect an ipod etc etc.
If you were to do this at the same time as adding the sub, you would not have to fit capacitors to the full range speakers - instead, select a headunit that has on-board filters, which do exactly the same job.
This is the setup (high powered head unit, sub and amp, filtered factory speakers) I had in my PD150 and it absolutely rocked, as anyone who heard it will attest.
If, after all that, you still want more volume and clarity, then replacement full range speakers (and then amplifying them) is the route to take. However, as someone that has already been there and done it, I would suggest you improve your signal (ie, swap the headunit and filter the signal to something suited to the speakers) and add a sub to give your sound some depth before you look at messing with the rest of it. I personally believe that amping your standard speakers and doing nothing else will potentially be wasted money - you're going to end up with a screechy and distorted mess of a sound, which is no louder prior to the point it distorts than it is at present.
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Thanks for such a long reply!!
I think i understnad it.. lol and i think i will end up taking this route..
"Now, when you add a sub to take care of the low stuff you can then filter out these low-end frequencies (using capacitors) from your full range speakers. This will allow you to drive your factory speakers harder before they start to croak; Make them twice as effecient and you can work them twice as hard.
A sub amp can easily be added to your existing headunit and would be installable (even for a novice) in a couple of hours.
Allow the balance of the day for filtering out your existing speakers (you do need to get to them afterall, which takes some time - allow an hour per corner of the car).
Next I would look at changing your head unit - future system expansion will be made considerably easier with high quality (and hi-voltage) pre-outs. Furthermore, the quality of signal output is going to be much higher, another factor that decides the ceiling of non-distorted sound; there's no point having a speaker set up capable of producing clear and devestating sound if the signal they're being fed is total garbage.
This also gives the ability to play MP3 cd's or connect an ipod etc etc."
With the filter things...what do they look like??
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They are very small, effectively just one or a number of capacitors soldered together (depending on the requency at which they operate) to form a high pass filter.
These should be installed in the positive wire of the signal prior to the crossover. this means that the signal arriving at your speakers will not contain anything lower than, for example, 100Hz.
You will be surpised how much harder you can drive your speakers when they aren't trying to reproduce these sounds
Leave that to the sub......
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Sounds great but im kind of lost! lol...If i asked a car audio shop to do this would they b e able to is it a common thing? Also do you know roughly how much they charge to do such a thing?
Thanks alot for your help!
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Ok, if you buy a specific filter in a car audio shop off the shelf you will probably pay a ludicrous amount for each one, as they will come in a nice plastic box, all packaged up etc etc etc. Probably £15-20 each corner.
Now, you aren't going to see these things, they're going to be soldered in-line behind your door panel somewhere so the point of buying something that looks nice and is stupidly expensive is..... exactly, none.
What you need to remember is these things contain one resisitor and one capacitor, both of fixed values, which would cost, at most, a couple of quid each from RS components. A real high quality audio shop (one that does its own install, good ones) should carry these parts on the shelf.
Go into your nearest decent audio shop, tell them you want to make your own high pass filters at around the 80-100Hz mark. They will sell you the bits you need (you should get four resistors and four capacitors, get a couple of spares of each too to practice with) for no more than £20.
Get yourself down to homebase, spend £15 on a soldering iron and make your own, simple as. ask them to show you which way round you solder the components together and which way round you fit them and away you go (if they're especially nice, they may even spend five minutes and solder them up for you.
Then you just need to fit them, whcih you do buy interupting (cutting) the positive speaker wire going to the crossover, and fitting (soldering is the best method) your new filter in between the two ends of your wire.
Alternatively, get on ebay and get yourself that new headunit, it will have the capability to do this built in. Plus it will already have preouts, and you;re going to need to spend about £20 on the adapter that will give you those from your existing head unit....
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is now a good time to mention the head unit I have for sale???
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right.. ok.. sorry to be a pain..so if i go buy a new HU it will save me doing all the filtering stuff? can plug it in and then it will be ok to amp the speakers?
Hmm i think i may need to do some reading up on previous posts or soemthing im being slow!! lol
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Do you mind if I ask why you want to amp the speakers so badly? Maybe a better question to ask is what do you want to improve about what you have? S11eps is spot on with everything he has said, the only addition I would make is think about upgrading your speaker cables if funds allow. Putting in the filter capacitors is a piece of cake despite how complicated it sounds :smiley:
Personally the way I'd go about it would be to get the sub setup the way you like it first and retro fit the filters after. I say this because the frequency you cut off your existing speakers at is generally the frequency the sub comes in at. Also you'll only have to filter the bass speakers you have, Electrical block connectors shouldn't affect the sound noticeably either if you're afraid of soldering. The hu will allow some control over filtering but not as effectively as capacitors and definitely not as cheap - I wouldn't have thought they'd cost anywhere close to £20.
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Im not sure why i do to be honest :undecided:
Im completely new to this all, and was just trying to get idea's etc for fitting an insttall nearer to summer. I want to get arough plan of what im going to have to do.
I would like to fit 2x 12"... and thought may need to amp speakers to keep up with the subs? but i dont like i sed complete newbie here! :nerd:
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Do you mind if I ask why you want to amp the speakers so badly? Maybe a better question to ask is what do you want to improve about what you have? S11eps is spot on with everything he has said, the only addition I would make is think about upgrading your speaker cables if funds allow. Putting in the filter capacitors is a piece of cake despite how complicated it sounds :smiley:
Personally the way I'd go about it would be to get the sub setup the way you like it first and retro fit the filters after. I say this because the frequency you cut off your existing speakers at is generally the frequency the sub comes in at. Also you'll only have to filter the bass speakers you have, Electrical block connectors shouldn't affect the sound noticeably either if you're afraid of soldering. The hu will allow some control over filtering but not as effectively as capacitors and definitely not as cheap - I wouldn't have thought they'd cost anywhere close to £20.
Definitely fit filters after adding the sub - otherwise you'll have a big hole in your sound until you get the sub up and running. Plus, you can't know what frequency you want your high-pass working at until your sub is in there.
The head unit uses signal manipulation to do the same job as the cap/resistor, and they aren't as accurate or steep cut offs as hard wiring the components into the signal line, however, they are free if you're putting a new head unit in and I personally wouldn't bother installing high pass filters if my headunit could do the job at 95% efficiency.
I only said £20 because, although an audio shop paid would probably less than £5, they're still going to want to make a profit - and generally the higher precentage margins are found on the cheapest stuff....
The speaker cable in the mk 4 will be ok until the point at which you upgrade the speakers or add an amplifier - it's actually fairly decent, and the time and effort I made in changing mine when I had a high powered head unit driving the speakes was wasted tbh, as a difference wasn't noticable - I'd save that for when you amplify, as you'll have to run new cables from the amplifier location anyway.
PS, As well as a High-end Kenwood head unit, I also have a rockford box with 2 x 12" punch subs in it for sale...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/S11EPS/RF2.jpg)
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Ok well ive been talking with another forum member and have decided -
Im going to get a pioneer 2 x 12" sub set with toxic amp, upgrade my 2 front component speakers and see how tweeters sound and if not that good pgrade them, im going to amp the component speakers aswel. and upgrade my headunit!
Sounds good?
Also while your here, could you recommend a good set of component speakers, that last and are loud??
Thanks for all your help!!
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I just got a set of these components: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Infinity-6-5-Reference-6510CS-270W-Component-Set_W0QQitemZ320070251206QQihZ011QQcategoryZ18799QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Infinity-6-5-Reference-6510CS-270W-Component-Set_W0QQitemZ320070251206QQihZ011QQcategoryZ18799QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) - complete bargain I reckon, the speakers are very good sounding and have a huge range. Sellers spot on too.
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They look good! just had a quick measure up and the components are 6.5" i thought they were, but the tweeters? are they all the same size?
because my rear ones- the cases are like 1.5" across and circular were as my front door ones obviously the cover/case bit is bigger than rear and isnt circular?! :shocked:
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I've put speakers in my own golf and another friends car, both times I just decided to mount them in the grills that were there - doesn't look too bad and reversible with €5 worth of parts from any scrapyard. It's also probably the handiest way as far as I can see. Pic of the friends car: http://www.iol.ie/~locoblade/sean/tweeterclose.jpg (http://www.iol.ie/~locoblade/sean/tweeterclose.jpg) There's actually a full documentation of his install on the website - if you're interested click the pictures of the cars in my sig and it's under the other projects section in the main site.